Jeff Winter speaks on VAR in Scotland

I know he's a Rangers man, but Winter is another dinosaur when it comes to any criticism of officials

We should be looking at improving the transparency and refining the technology instead of looking to go back to referees having zero accountability for their (often terrible) decisions

Mistakes are still being made, no doubt, but the vast majority of VAR interventions are spot on
 
The one thing in football that urgently needs changed isn't VAR. It's the handball rule.

We absolutely have to go back to only being a penalty if there is judged to be intent, or it prevents a probable goal.

It will always be subjective, we need to get rid of all this overcomplicated nonsense about natural positions and body silhouettes.
 
At the end of the day we're still being shafted, whether that's intentional or by honest mistakes is open to debate.
The thing is we'd be a lot worse off if there was no VAR. We'd have what, a third of the penalties we've had for example with the ref not giving it but var rightly telling the ref to have another look. At the very least it gives us ammo when the ref makes a James hunt of it. Without VAR it's a case of "oh well it was an honest mistake" now with VAR and an in-depth look at most things we can ask the question.
God knows how many points we'd be behind without VAR.
 
Maybe if we had VAR it might be better rather than clubs who only want to pay for half a system.. Why do people not highlight the refs are the problem more than the farmfoods system.
 
dh1963 said:
The one thing in football that urgently needs changed isn't VAR. It's the handball rule.

We absolutely have to go back to only being a penalty if there is judged to be intent, or it prevents a probable goal.

It will always be subjective, we need to get rid of all this overcomplicated nonsense about natural positions and body silhouettes.
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In a nutshell.
 
dh1963 said:
The one thing in football that urgently needs changed isn't VAR. It's the handball rule.

We absolutely have to go back to only being a penalty if there is judged to be intent, or it prevents a probable goal.

It will always be subjective, we need to get rid of all this overcomplicated nonsense about natural positions and body silhouettes.
Click to expand...
That one grinds my gears a natural position of your arm is different if you are running/jumping/slide tackling etc.
The one John Souttar got done for when he was sliding was a joke because his arm could not go anywhere else when doing what he was doing.(Killie?)
 
If it's bad in England (and it's really bad), with no expense spared, professional officials and all the rest, what chance do we have in Scotland?

It's causing more controversial issues with the idiots that are operating it, was there ever going to be any other outcome with the likes of Collum, Clancy et al still heavily involved in the decision making process?
 
Headline not telling the whole truth here, again.
Reads to me like he was discussing the handballs in games there.
As for the rest of it, we all feel the same.
Let’s take the handballs out of the argument for a minute because he is right, that does need fixed.
For everything else though, offsides and fouls, has VAR worked?
Of course it has.
We hardly see shirt pulling these days and there were a number of decisions based around that in the early days.
Offsides are offsides are factual.
Blame the players for that, they don’t need to be even a toe-nail offside.
Fouls are still subjective but there are many where VAR has corrected obvious errors.
Bottom line, again though, is if the corrections are still ninety odd percent accurate without the handballs.
 
dh1963 said:
The one thing in football that urgently needs changed isn't VAR. It's the handball rule.

We absolutely have to go back to only being a penalty if there is judged to be intent, or it prevents a probable goal.

It will always be subjective, we need to get rid of all this overcomplicated nonsense about natural positions and body silhouettes.
Click to expand...
i suspect if they fixed the handball rule, you would remove a lot of the frustration surrounding VAR
 
The final call still rests with the match referee. The failure to understand this simple point is embarrassing.
The VAR simply recommends he looks at it again.

If 99 times out of 100 he changes his decision, then that only proves that VAR is doing what it should and that referees are getting it horrendously wrong on the pitch.

If they feel pressured into changing their minds or giving a decision that they don't fully believe in, they shouldn't be anywhere near the job.
 
Jeff is correct. Referees are terrified of making a mistake, decision and then either sticking to the original decision or being confident enough to accept they got it wrong. VAR is providing them with a technological scapegoat. The standard of refereeing in Scotland is shocking. They need coaching and the confidence to be a ref. The media and social media are making their lives a misery. VAR is meant to assist however clubs who haven't got the decision they want are calling it out.
 
dh1963 said:
The one thing in football that urgently needs changed isn't VAR. It's the handball rule.

We absolutely have to go back to only being a penalty if there is judged to be intent, or it prevents a probable goal.

It will always be subjective, we need to get rid of all this overcomplicated nonsense about natural positions and body silhouettes.
Click to expand...
In reality deliberate handballs are relatively rare in matches.

The rule makers, FIFA and the International Football Association Board (IFAB) have made an absolute mess of this rule to the point the game is being ruined.

Totally agree about penalty being awarded in circumstances you mention above, I would maybe add that a penalty also be awarded if the defending team gain an obvious advantage by unintentional handball, eg. stopping the ball reaching an attacking player who was clearly going to receive the pass.

Whatever future changes are made, or maybe none, accidental handball where there is neither intent nor an advantage gained should never be a penalty.
 
Another VAR is shite article.It's very tedious.

He's right about one thing though. There needs to be talks in the close season allowing refs and managers to air there views and concerns, and implement improvements. No media allowed.

And we need to invest in the the full bhuna VAR, not the VAR from Wish that we have.
 
Rather than VAR being the issue it’s the consistency of application of the rules of the game where the problem arises.

Simplify that, issue clear unequivocal guidance and ensure it’s integrated with the game. Needless to say without any influence on var or the refs from Shame FC.

Anyone would think there’s an important OF game coming and someone wants to pressure the referees again.
 
If they ditch var up here, we are literally fücked …

We get shafted with var regardless, without it we are done…

Look at every stone wall penalty we get, it gets put under the fücking Hubble telescope for 10 minutes before a decision is made…

Get independent officials in .. simple
 
This matter is pretty straightforward to me .
Another shining example of the lack of professionalism in Scottish Football.
A few people will be aware that I was scathing about the number of so called professional clubs in Scotland.
The refereeing situation throws up yet another example of how amateur we are in Scotland.
In England they have something like 84 full time referees who cover EPL and Championship.
In Scotland we have none and end up with a Religious Education teacher in Scotland as our number 1 referee.
You couldn’t make it up.
Wholly impartial from that type of background seems incongruous to me.
It doesn’t look or smell right to any any independent thinker and the system should be beyond reproach.
Do you the think the EPL would appoint a Merseyside official to referee a Liverpool v Man Utd game ?
Yet we accept Willie Collum.

To be fair the referees on VAR duty in Scotland work with the original cheapo system which the clubs in Scotland moan about stumping up for.
In England the professional referees work with 30 cameras which provides a framework for getting more decisions right
Not all but more decisions right.
In Scotland our amateur referees work with 6 camera’s or if lucky if Sky coverage of live game more than that.

In Scotland we do like a shambles.
 
weetam3106 said:
Rather than VAR being the issue it’s the consistency of application of the rules of the game where the problem arises.

Simplify that, issue clear unequivocal guidance and ensure it’s integrated with the game. Needless to say without any influence on var or the refs from Shame FC.

Anyone would think there’s an important OF game coming and someone wants to pressure the referees again.
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It's also one of those rules that when players and managers work it out use it to advantage or disadvantage opponents.

The handball rule is a mess but the players arnt helping it

Take the Johnstone roll at killie it was deliberate trying to make his body as big as possible to block a shot....... but created enough dubiety in the moment the ball his his hands that hein a natural position to protect himself from hitting the ground.

Playing the full section and you see what he did was a deliberate as could be but it creates the pressure refs are under with argument well I was in a natural position
 
I remember the thread on VAR before it came into play. I recall posting that although absolutely necessary, it would be a waste of time here because of the cheats & incompetents implementing it.
 
Sticky said:
In addition in this day and age, the refs should be allowed to explain their decisions including the publication of the VAR chatter.
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Completely agree.

That would immediately dispel any conspiracy theories, or, lay bare the utter incompetence of the officials.

Either way, it would drive improvements.
 
Thetinman said:
At the end of the day we're still being shafted, whether that's intentional or by honest mistakes is open to debate.
The thing is we'd be a lot worse off if there was no VAR. We'd have what, a third of the penalties we've had for example with the ref not giving it but var rightly telling the ref to have another look. At the very least it gives us ammo when the ref makes a James hunt of it. Without VAR it's a case of "oh well it was an honest mistake" now with VAR and an in-depth look at most things we can ask the question.
God knows how many points we'd be behind without VAR.
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This is why we need to keep VAR not get rid of it
 
One for our resident statos on FF.

Although VAR is far from perfect,would we be better or worse off points wise this season if it hadn’t been in place ?

The most obvious one being the “goal” we scored against Sellic before it was chopped off. In my opinion, it the goal had stood we would of went on and won this game, so that’s a 6 point swing right away.
We have also had 9 or 10 penalties given that referees have shat themselves from being given in real-time. How many of them turned 1 point into the full 3 ?
 
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The game is about goals and chopping them off for a hair being offside is totally ludicrous.
Football is the only sport where cheating is not only tolerated but actively encouraged, now we have rule makers deliberately finding ways to make the game less exciting.
Could not make it up
 
So he’s highlighting the incompetence of the referees utilising VAR and not the technology itself?

Won’t stop a few simpletons diving in two footed after reading the headline.
 
GodStruth said:
I know he's a Rangers man, but Winter is another dinosaur when it comes to any criticism of officials

We should be looking at improving the transparency and refining the technology instead of looking to go back to referees having zero accountability for their (often terrible) decisions

Mistakes are still being made, no doubt, but the vast majority of VAR interventions are spot on
Click to expand...
It's not needed
 
There is an issue with VAR in Scotland, its not the technology its the implementation. I don't know if other countries are having the same issues but would expect that some have implemented it with minimal fuss. Why then does UEFA not use the knowledge from where its working and get those football bodies to help train those who are having g an issue. Would benefit the game Europe wide.
 
Pretty much sums up the use of VAR in Scotland.
Decent article, but it misses the elephant in the room. That, of course, being that VAR has been used multiple times to benefit one club. Decisions are being arrived at depending on who you are and how easily intimidated the refs are. Look at the mentally challengeds, one game reffed to the same standard as everyone else against Hearts, which they lose, and a campaign is started against the refs and VAR officials and the intimidation from club, manager and supporters begins. Until the refereeing fraternity is 'cleaned up' and becomes a neutral entity rather than the crucible of bias it is today, then VAR in Scotland will always be a farce no matter what. Let's face it, we could have a million cameras at a million angles and the cvnts in the VAR room and the ref team on the pitch would still not see the obvious and would still apply the laws of the game 'subjectively' to benefit one team. It's not VAR that's the problem in Scotland, it's the running of the game itself and the willingness to let one club call the shots.
 
GazzaG said:
The final call still rests with the match referee. The failure to understand this simple point is embarrassing.
The VAR simply recommends he looks at it again.

If 99 times out of 100 he changes his decision, then that only proves that VAR is doing what it should and that referees are getting it horrendously wrong on the pitch.

If they feel pressured into changing their minds or giving a decision that they don't fully believe in, they shouldn't be anywhere near the job.
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It’s only been mention a thousand times on here alone.
The waters are muddied though when chief manipulators like Rodgers call out the VAR as the culprit.
Of course, it helps when it was actually Beaton who was the VAR at the time and the scum don’t like Beaton.
 
GodStruth said:
I know he's a Rangers man, but Winter is another dinosaur when it comes to any criticism of officials

We should be looking at improving the transparency and refining the technology instead of looking to go back to referees having zero accountability for their (often terrible) decisions

Mistakes are still being made, no doubt, but the vast majority of VAR interventions are spot on
Click to expand...
You only have to look at how the Collum, “victim” situation was handled to see the problems with Scotland. It would be a great case study if anybody was actually bothered about improving football there.
 
Blue_Britain said:
I've been in Jeff's company many a time before a game. The man can talk, so I think I'll give this read a miss :))
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Spoke to me once as we were heading up to Ibrox and that mob were playing an early ko at Kilmarnock, lovely words they were as he turned round and said, " full time with that mob, killie have beat them"... beautiful lol
 
VAR as a concept is not perfect but it’s a darn sight better than the ‘honest mistakes’ and ‘oh silly me, I didn’t see that’ nonsense.

Why? Because now we know with certainty that the incident has been seen. The Killie attacker being manhandled at the LC Semi being probably one of the most blatant ones ever, other than Frog Features playing basketball.

As for this story, I’m just amazed we didn’t get the Hearts penalty for the handball used in the captions. Cause that’s what’s really the driving force behind all this whinging. They lost a game.
 
The narrative is moving towards VAR removal.

Then we can get back to Rangers players getting sent off for nothing, Celtic's opponents getting sent off for nothing and Rangers getting kicked up and down the park etc.

Celtic run the game in Scotland.
 
dh1963 said:
The one thing in football that urgently needs changed isn't VAR. It's the handball rule.

We absolutely have to go back to only being a penalty if there is judged to be intent, or it prevents a probable goal.

It will always be subjective, we need to get rid of all this overcomplicated nonsense about natural positions and body silhouettes.
Click to expand...
What about the ball having to change direction?
This would rule out some of the “only brushed his arm” issues.
 
QueensferryCR3Bear said:
The narrative is moving towards VAR removal.

Then we can get back to Rangers players getting sent off for nothing, Celtic's opponents getting sent off for nothing and Rangers getting kicked up and down the park etc.

Celtic run the game in Scotland.
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There's no way VAR is being removed. The way it's used needs looked at, and some rules (especially handball) need to be changed. I think the SFA/SPFL would care too much about how it would look to UEFA etc to get rid of it.
 
Thetinman said:
At the end of the day we're still being shafted, whether that's intentional or by honest mistakes is open to debate.
The thing is we'd be a lot worse off if there was no VAR. We'd have what, a third of the penalties we've had for example with the ref not giving it but var rightly telling the ref to have another look. At the very least it gives us ammo when the ref makes a James hunt of it. Without VAR it's a case of "oh well it was an honest mistake" now with VAR and an in-depth look at most things we can ask the question.
God knows how many points we'd be behind without VAR.
Click to expand...
Remember the league cup final they won 1-0 there is no way that goal would have been allowed if VAR had been in place that day, would anyone want to go back to not having VAR and cheating linesmen being allowed to get away making dishonest mistakes unless of course you are the team that benefits from such decisions
 
GodStruth said:
I know he's a Rangers man, but Winter is another dinosaur when it comes to any criticism of officials

We should be looking at improving the transparency and refining the technology instead of looking to go back to referees having zero accountability for their (often terrible) decisions

Mistakes are still being made, no doubt, but the vast majority of VAR interventions are spot on
Click to expand...
I have heard % figures over 90 used to describe its effectiveness. PS: Because of that,the Cabal, will most certainly, want Shot of it!
 
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