Lionel Messi

The game has changed so much these days. Teams are fit, tactically aware and have organised defences; they actually try and stop the opposition from creating and converting chances.

Brazil 1970 are probably the equivalent of a Czech Republic or Uruguay in today's game.

Wee Pele got lucky he played in an era when the sport wasn't as advanced, but fair play to him for taking advantage and racking up 1000 goals against Brazilian taxi drivers.
 
zecchinetta said:
The game has changed so much these days. Teams are fit, tactically aware and have organised defences; they actually try and stop the opposition from creating and converting chances.

Brazil 1970 are probably the equivalent of a Czech Republic or Uruguay in today's game.

Wee Pele got lucky he played in an era when the sport wasn't as advanced, but fair play to him for taking advantage and racking up 1000 goals against Brazilian taxi drivers.
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Plus it’s a fallacy he scored over 1,000 goals.

His tally is 775, in proper games. The over 1,000 includes friendlies and exhibitions, which just can’t be taken seriously and don’t count.

I think you are being harsh on his career which was amazing. But purely on goals scored in any type of proper game, he is now 3rd, behind Messi and Ronaldo who is top.
 
Barrymoped said:
Plus it’s a fallacy he scored over 1,000 goals.

His tally is 775, in proper games. The over 1,000 includes friendlies and exhibitions, which just can’t be taken seriously and don’t count.

I think you are being harsh on his career which was amazing. But purely on goals scored in any type of proper game, he is now 3rd, behind Messi and Ronaldo who is top.
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He rattled in a few hat-tricks per week against his grandkids in the garden. Seems incredibly churlish to remove these goals from his record as it couldn't have been too much more difficult than scoring in world cups back then.
 
zecchinetta said:
He rattled in a few hat-tricks per week against his grandkids in the garden. Seems incredibly churlish to remove these goals from his record as it couldn't have been too much more difficult than scoring in world cups back then.
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And when Messi is playing with his grandkids in the garden and they ask “ papa Lionel, how many world cups did you win? The great Pele won three they say” he will sheepishly look at the ground and mumble about scoring some goals against Alaves back in the day :))
 
zecchinetta said:
He rattled in a few hat-tricks per week against his grandkids in the garden. Seems incredibly churlish to remove these goals from his record as it couldn't have been too much more difficult than scoring in world cups back then.
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In all seriousness the standard of football in ol’ floppy cock’s era was really shit. You watch old World Cup highlights and you’d probably see a better standard of game in your garden. If you want proof just look at the way people fawned over that dummy against Uruguay, where he then proceeds to miss an open goal. Old punters pull their plonker to that as though it was some incredible feat of skill; if that’s Morelos we’re all talking about what a diddy he is.

 
Pirlo said:
In all seriousness the standard of football in ol’ floppy cock’s era was really shit. You watch old World Cup highlights and you’d probably see a better standard of game in your garden. If you want proof just look at the way people fawned over that dummy against Uruguay, where he then proceeds to miss an open goal. Old punters pull their plonker to that as though it was some incredible feat of skill; if that’s Morelos we’re all talking about what a diddy he is.

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In that clip, it's the pressure on the ball in the midfield from Uruguay that impresses me. These guys must have been super fit.
 
Bluebeard said:
And when Messi is playing with his grandkids in the garden and they ask “ papa Lionel, how many world cups did you win? The great Pele won three they say” he will sheepishly look at the ground and mumble about scoring some goals against Alaves back in the day :))
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He might mumble about scoring about 30 v Englands Top 4 despite never playing there, or European Cup Final goals. Or as you say meekly look to the ground in embarrassment. It's hard to say
 
Number_9 said:
Kleberson and Roque Junior won the World Cup in 2002, I’m pretty sure it doesn’t make them the best midfielder and defender in the world.
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Nobody said it does.

Only a fool would suggest though that winning THREE world cups isn’t an incredible achievement. In fact only one footballer has ever done that. Edson Arantes do Nascimento.
 
Number_9 said:
You said it does by citing that Diego Armando Maradona won it once
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Once more than Messi as well as his other achievements in the game. At no point did I say any player who wins a World Cup automatically becomes the greatest ever player. That would be exceedingly stupid. But you knew that already.
 
Pirlo said:
In all seriousness the standard of football in ol’ floppy cock’s era was really shit. You watch old World Cup highlights and you’d probably see a better standard of game in your garden. If you want proof just look at the way people fawned over that dummy against Uruguay, where he then proceeds to miss an open goal. Old punters pull their plonker to that as though it was some incredible feat of skill; if that’s Morelos we’re all talking about what a diddy he is.

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You're talking absolute mince, if that was a messi clip you'd be ripping the head off it day in day oot at it.
 
wd1872 said:
My GOAT vote goes to the Brazilian Ronaldo.

For me he was the closest thing we have had to 'unstoppable' at his absolute peak.

The perfect combination of power, pace, strength, unbelievable ball control, dribbling and finishing.

The way he could just glide past players like every elite player can.

He gave you that feeling before every game you watched him play, that you were buzzing to see what he would do with the ball, as he had that entertainment factor as well that the likes of Ronaldinho and Zidane gave.

He had the raw talent of Messi and the power and goalscoring threat of a CR7 as well. To me he was a combination of both.

The only thing that stops him being put forward in more peoples arguments is the fact he suffered insanely difficult injuries and came back not the same player, and as a result gets tarred with the 'Fat Ronaldo' tag.


'Fat Ronaldo' was still insanely good, but pre injury he was the greatest I've seen imo.
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You need to look at their careers as a whole though in the best ever discussion and unfortunately Ronaldo Nazario doesn’t have that. Being fit for so long and physically able to play near enough every weak for 15 years is part of what makes a player great.
 
wd1872 said:
You're talking absolute mince, if that was a messi clip you'd be ripping the head off it day in day oot at it.
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You think I’d be fawning over Messi letting the ball run on then making a rip roaring cant of an open goal? Yeah I really don’t think I would. The standard was cats piss.
 
Pirlo said:
You think I’d be fawning over Messi letting the ball run on then making a rip roaring cant of an open goal? Yeah I really don’t think I would. The standard was cats piss.
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It clearly wasn't open though was it? The defender was covering the whole right side of the net. The only place Pele could slot it was the bottom left.
 
Bluebeard said:
Once more than Messi as well as his other achievements in the game. At no point did I say any player who wins a World Cup automatically becomes the greatest ever player. That would be exceedingly stupid. But you knew that already.
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You are the one using it as a gauge not me, Maradona 1 Messi 0 according to your post.
Yes I agree with you citing winning a World Cup as being automatically the best player in the world is stupid.
 
muttley said:
Argentinians would always pick Maradona over Messi, which says it all regarding where Messi sits in the best of all time status. He's great, but not that great.
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The reason Maradona appeals to the Argentines more is because a lot of them consider Messi as European since he left so young.

To say a guy that’s scored 785 goals and still playing at the elite level is “not that great” is laughable.
 
Number_9 said:
You are the one using it as a gauge not me, Maradona 1 Messi 0 according to your post.
Yes I agree with you citing winning a World Cup as being automatically the best player in the world is stupid.
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It’s one of many measures. It’s all subjective of course , but you won’t find a discussion on Messi anywhere without the glaring omission of a World Cup win in five attempts being discussed.

It can be an interesting debate what’s not to like about discussing the greats of the game from different eras.
 
Pirlo said:
You think I’d be fawning over Messi letting the ball run on then making a rip roaring cant of an open goal? Yeah I really don’t think I would. The standard was cats piss.
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Jesse Owens wasn't a great Olympic sprinter as athletes now can run much faster.
Mohammad Ali wasn't the greatest heavyweight boxer, he would be overpowered now by the much bigger and stronger modern fighters.
Rod Laver might have won all those grand slams at tennis, but he would be blown away by any bigger and fitter top 20 player now.

Things like advances in medicine, healthier lifestyles, better diet, more professionalism in sport have all made people in 2022 bigger, stronger and fitter than those of bygone times. But you can only be as good as the era you were born in allows you to be.
Pele's era had players slower and less fit and who didn't have the advantages of sports science. But they also had to contend with big heavy footballs, terrible pitches, rules that allowed serious assault as well as everyone actually playing games to win without diving and cheating.

We should celebrate his genius, just as future generations should celebrate Messi. Neither can be better than the other, as comparing football of 60 years ago to football today is pointless.

A 17 year old who scored twice in a World Cup final, one of them when he chipped it over a defender's head and then volleyed it in. Regardless of anything else, that is something any true football fan should be in awe about.
 
Bluebeard said:
Laughing at the number of posts saying “ he’s not won a World Cup but he’s scored loads a champions league goals “ as if that’s some kind of insurmountable achievement. He played for one of the most dominant and powerful European sides of his era in Barcelona and he now plays for the richest club in Europe ffs.

We’ve seen first hand how easy it is for teams to smash goals in aplenty in that competition this season, unfortunately, and the whole competition has been geared towards helping about 8 teams get to the later stages by lining them up against low seeded sides. He’s had cannon fodder to score against like Celtic (7-0) to give one example.

To win a tournament that is only played every four years like the World Cup 3 times is the mark of greatness. Not a pidgeon shoot like the “champions” league. Messi doesn’t even have the most goals in that, Ronaldo does, or the best “ ratio” that some posters have mentioned, lewamdowski, Muller and di stefano all ahead of him.

Messi has been a great wee player to watch over the years but will never achieve what pele did , nor Maradona for that matter. Maradona made an ordinary Napoli win Serie A and led an average Argentina to World Cup glory. Messi has had the luxury of being in a world class team his whole career and when asked to take his club form to the world stage with Argentina folds under the pressure more often than not sadly.
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Do you not see how daft your argument sounds though?

Messi was the best player in one of the best club sides of all time and he stayed at this level for 15 years...

Maradona played for Barcelona and flopped. His success came at a mediocre Italian side. Surely if you're the greatest player of all time your career would reflect it?

He spent 10 years playing in Argentina and only won one league title. Shambles really.
 
WinkieWATP said:
These threads are always bonkers but Brazil 1970 being the equivalent of the Czech Republic today might well be the most bonkers thing I’ve ever read on here. :))
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Realistically the standard was atrocious compared to nowadays, let's be honest.

The Cruyff turn was seen as some revolutionary genius piece of skill whereas it's something a 3 year old can pull off.
 
dt17 said:
Realistically the standard was atrocious compared to nowadays, let's be honest.

The Cruyff turn was seen as some revolutionary genius piece of skill whereas it's something a 3 year old can pull off.
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“Better to be silent and thought a fool than speak and remove all doubt.”
 
dt17 said:
Realistically the standard was atrocious compared to nowadays, let's be honest.

The Cruyff turn was seen as some revolutionary genius piece of skill whereas it's something a 3 year old can pull off.
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The standard of that 1970 team was the best anyone anywhere had ever seen up till that time.

I really don't get why folk need to be so dismissive of past greatness just because footballers are now bigger, fitter and faster.

I prefer to think of it as just how utterly incredible that Brazil forward line would be nowadays with the advantages of 21st century sporting life.

Jairzinho, Gerson, Tostao, Pele, Rivelino.

5 genuinely world class players who with modern levels of fitness would still be world cup winners in 2022 as no team in the current tournament would live with them.
 
dt17 said:
Facts
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Rinus Michels revolutionised football with his system at Ajax then Holland with Cruyff. Suggesting the standard was ‘atrocious’ then is just hyperbolic nonsense.

Michels ideology and principles were instrumental in all modern football that followed.

As for slagging off Cruyff’s turn. Do you not understand that creating something new is a rare and remarkable thing?

Why am I even lowering myself to argue this??
 
Bluebeard said:
And when Messi is playing with his grandkids in the garden and they ask “ papa Lionel, how many world cups did you win? The great Pele won three they say” he will sheepishly look at the ground and mumble about scoring some goals against Alaves back in the day :))
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You seem like the kind of guy who would prefer Wings to the Beatles.
 
dh1963 said:
The standard of that 1970 team was the best anyone anywhere had ever seen up till that time.

I really don't get why folk need to be so dismissive of past greatness just because footballers are now bigger, fitter and faster.

I prefer to think of it as just how utterly incredible that Brazil forward line would be nowadays with the advantages of 21st century sporting life.

Jairzinho, Gerson, Tostao, Pele, Rivelino.

5 genuinely world class players who with modern levels of fitness would still be world cup winners in 2022 as no team in the current tournament would live with them.
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It’s no different to people who ridiculously claim that players now can’t be better than any before because the opposition are not allowed to try and break their legs every tackle.

Can you imagine how ridiculous Messi and Ronaldo would be if there were no offsides?
 
dh1963 said:
Jesse Owens wasn't a great Olympic sprinter as athletes now can run much faster.
Mohammad Ali wasn't the greatest heavyweight boxer, he would be overpowered now by the much bigger and stronger modern fighters.
Rod Laver might have won all those grand slams at tennis, but he would be blown away by any bigger and fitter top 20 player now.

Things like advances in medicine, healthier lifestyles, better diet, more professionalism in sport have all made people in 2022 bigger, stronger and fitter than those of bygone times. But you can only be as good as the era you were born in allows you to be.
Pele's era had players slower and less fit and who didn't have the advantages of sports science. But they also had to contend with big heavy footballs, terrible pitches, rules that allowed serious assault as well as everyone actually playing games to win without diving and cheating.

We should celebrate his genius, just as future generations should celebrate Messi. Neither can be better than the other, as comparing football of 60 years ago to football today is pointless.

A 17 year old who scored twice in a World Cup final, one of them when he chipped it over a defender's head and then volleyed it in. Regardless of anything else, that is something any true football fan should be in awe about.
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Nailed it. Great post sir
 
Incredible that those in their Messi pyjamas are still here like teenage lassies defending any slight against Harry Styles. :))
 
muss said:
Silly comparison when you consider Pele's team mates.
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Same comparison for the players Messi has around him at Club level in fact even more so,the abundance of World Class players gives him the freedom to play his own game something Maradona didn’t have.
 
dh1963 said:
Jesse Owens wasn't a great Olympic sprinter as athletes now can run much faster.
Mohammad Ali wasn't the greatest heavyweight boxer, he would be overpowered now by the much bigger and stronger modern fighters.
Rod Laver might have won all those grand slams at tennis, but he would be blown away by any bigger and fitter top 20 player now.

Things like advances in medicine, healthier lifestyles, better diet, more professionalism in sport have all made people in 2022 bigger, stronger and fitter than those of bygone times. But you can only be as good as the era you were born in allows you to be.
Pele's era had players slower and less fit and who didn't have the advantages of sports science. But they also had to contend with big heavy footballs, terrible pitches, rules that allowed serious assault as well as everyone actually playing games to win without diving and cheating.

We should celebrate his genius, just as future generations should celebrate Messi. Neither can be better than the other, as comparing football of 60 years ago to football today is pointless.

A 17 year old who scored twice in a World Cup final, one of them when he chipped it over a defender's head and then volleyed it in. Regardless of anything else, that is something any true football fan should be in awe about.
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Great post dh. You can only be the best in your era. If the standard was so bad back in the day, do we not celebrate Barcelona '72 and forget John Greig, Jim Baxter et al??
 
govan86 said:
Great post dh. You can only be the best in your era. If the standard was so bad back in the day, do we not celebrate Barcelona '72 and forget John Greig, Jim Baxter et al??
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Well, we can but we don't really think it's all that transferable to the modern day. I'm not sure anyone thinks that the 1890 team would've given the 72 side a game either.
 
dt17 said:
Just wait, only a matter of time on that front as well.
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Possibly.
He is what, 2 years younger than Ronaldo? So has more time on his side.

However that all depends on where Ronaldo goes next. He goes to a club in an easier league when he is the main man again and he will probably bang them in until he is 40, at least.

At the minute Messi is 2nd on the list
 
Barrymoped said:
Possibly.
He is what, 2 years younger than Ronaldo? So has more time on his side.

However that all depends on where Ronaldo goes next. He goes to a club in an easier league when he is the main man again and he will probably bang them in until he is 40, at least.

At the minute Messi is 2nd on the list
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Still no mean feat considering he's also the player with the most assists in the history of the game and has basically played as a playmaking midfielder for 5+ years.

I actually think Portugal have a decent chance of winning the WC this year, really strong squad. Hope not though.
 
Bluethruandthru said:
Why is that , can you put it into words?
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No, sometimes you just don't take a liking to someone. Initially stemmed from him being such a big Barcelona player. A team I cannot stand and never have been able to. However, for some reason I just don't like Messi, ain't going to change. Don't get me wrong - I can see his talent and appreciate him as one of the world's best footballers but I'll just continue to dislike him.
 
dh1963 said:
Jesse Owens wasn't a great Olympic sprinter as athletes now can run much faster.
Mohammad Ali wasn't the greatest heavyweight boxer, he would be overpowered now by the much bigger and stronger modern fighters.
Rod Laver might have won all those grand slams at tennis, but he would be blown away by any bigger and fitter top 20 player now.

Things like advances in medicine, healthier lifestyles, better diet, more professionalism in sport have all made people in 2022 bigger, stronger and fitter than those of bygone times. But you can only be as good as the era you were born in allows you to be.
Pele's era had players slower and less fit and who didn't have the advantages of sports science. But they also had to contend with big heavy footballs, terrible pitches, rules that allowed serious assault as well as everyone actually playing games to win without diving and cheating.

We should celebrate his genius, just as future generations should celebrate Messi. Neither can be better than the other, as comparing football of 60 years ago to football today is pointless.

A 17 year old who scored twice in a World Cup final, one of them when he chipped it over a defender's head and then volleyed it in. Regardless of anything else, that is something any true football fan should be in awe about.
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A classic case is the Real Madrid / Eintracht final at Hampden touted as the greatest game ever. Can you imagine if forums had been about then (especially a Frankfurt one)the defending was atrocious compared to nowadays but you couldn't argue they were two brilliant teams and Real the best by a mile.
 
In terms of longevity, consistency and career achievements no one comes close to Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo. You can make arguments for either being the greatest. There's really no debate it's anyone else but those two.
 
Kubala said:
I can't answer it with any certainty, but I can almost completely understand why people who only see players once every four years would build them up to a mythical level.
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The thing about Messi and Ronaldo is, literally every single game they've played has been broadcast live. We've seen it all. And the consistency will never be matched. I dont tend to look at numbers, the eye test is enough for me. Messi does things on a pitch that makes me happy as a football fan. He puts a smile on your face. The footage of Diego says it all, the guy was an absolute genius. But he obviously had issues that impacted his career.

I don't want to sound like I'm trashing guys like Pele and Diego as they are obviously giants of the sport, but there is obviously a bit of romanticism at play here.
 
ReemergingDebate said:
In terms of longevity, consistency and career achievements no one comes close to Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo. You can make arguments for either being the greatest. There's really no debate it's anyone else but those two.
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Mbappe and Haaland might pull away from both of them in terms of sheer numbers.
zecchinetta said:
The thing about Messi and Ronaldo is, literally every single game they've played has been broadcast live. We've seen it all. And the consistency will never be matched. I dont tend to look at numbers, the eye test is enough for me. Messi does things on a pitch that makes me happy as a football fan. He puts a smile on your face. The footage of Diego says it all, the guy was an absolute genius. But he obviously had issues that impacted his career.

I don't want to sound like I'm trashing guys like Pele and Diego as they are obviously giants of the sport, but there is obviously a bit of romanticism at play here.
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Especially when it's pretty much acknowledged that players who have great tournaments won't necessarily make great signings at club level and it's a pretty poor way to judge players.
 
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