Rangers tweet regarding Holocaust.

[TheDerryend]

Ultimately many are - Christopher Browning's "Reserve Police Battalion 101" details how manly working class people from ordinary jobs in a left-leaning city came to kill thousands with very few of them being committed Nazis.

Likewise many of those who committed atrocities for Stalin were normal.

What was abnormal was the circumstances they found themselves in and the leaders appointed above them.

In the East during the time of the Holocaust you had a hard-core of Nazis - usually called 'radicals in the Party' - providing an ideological basis, an indifferent majority softened by years of propaganda, remoteness or strangeness of a foreign land, and large areas in which camps and killing grounds could be hidden.

Yep, I also read that book and it really shows you how ordinary people can get caught up in this. People who had never committed a crime in their life.

 

[Murphy]

Did it not take years of "education" to make ordinary people come to believe what they were doing was "just"?

The Nazi factory was brainwashing from the early thirties.

Have a look at the movie, Stanford Prison Experiment to see how easy it is for ordinary people like me and you to start to abuse others. No brainwashing required.

There's also a cracking experiment by Millgram into obedience. Have a look. You wont regret it.

 

[Polar bear]

Well done Rangers, that’s class

This tragedy should always be remembered


Like lots of us I’ve been to Auschwitz whilst on a wee trip to Cracow
And I’ve also been to yad vashem in Jerusalem , having been a few times to Israel on holiday

Regardless of all the political stuff today ( and I think the Jewish people with their history of so much suffering should show more compassion and try to come to a fair and just peace agreement with the Palestinians)
Not trying to preach or anything this is just my own opinion here

but anyone who denies , mocks , ridicules etc The Holocaust

Really are a blight on humanity

You’re preaching.:shh:

 

[Amity75]

Program just starting on BBC2 now about survivors getting portraits paintEd for Queen's collection

That was a great program. The paintings will be on display at Holyrood Palace in March and i'd like to go and see them.

 

[Bluenose88]

A news story ran yesterday that 30% of Americans polled believe the holocaust did not happen.
I have no idea of the demographic or numbers polled but that was shocking to me on so many levels.

 

[The People]

You’re preaching.:shh:

 

[The People]

Yeah maybe your right

Just it's something I've always felt strongly about

 

[Sir Sasa Papac]

Well done Rangers, that’s class

This tragedy should always be remembered


Like lots of us I’ve been to Auschwitz whilst on a wee trip to Cracow
And I’ve also been to yad vashem in Jerusalem , having been a few times to Israel on holiday

Regardless of all the political stuff today ( and I think the Jewish people with their history of so much suffering should show more compassion and try to come to a fair and just peace agreement with the Palestinians)
Not trying to preach or anything this is just my own opinion here

but anyone who denies , mocks , ridicules etc The Holocaust

Really are a blight on humanity

“Come to a peace agreement with Palestine”

Theres been a two state solution touted for decades but the Palestinians won’t accept anything less that their stated aim, the destruction of Israel as a state.

It always surprises me when people blame Israel for not ensuring peace when they are literally surrounded by countries who openly state they will destroy them when the chance arises. Bad Israel, stop being such dangerous victims

Student patter blaming Israel

 

[stevie1969]

Have a look at the movie, Stanford Prison Experiment to see how easy it is for ordinary people like me and you to start to abuse others. No brainwashing required.

There's also a cracking experiment by Millgram into obedience. Have a look. You wont regret it.

Just had a quick look at the wiki page for this - seems it has been discredited as a scientific study.

However, I understand that in a given situation if a charismatic leader emerges in a group of people, then their influence will spread through the group.

 

[The People]

“Come to a peace agreement with Palestine”

Theres been a two state solution touted for decades but the Palestinians won’t accept anything less that their stated aim, the destruction of Israel as a state.

It always surprises me when people blame Israel for not ensuring peace when they are literally surrounded by States who openly state they will destroy them when the chance arises. Bad Israel, stop being such dangerous victims

Student patter

Who's blaming Israel ??
I'm very pro Israel ,having been a few times and being very knowledgeable about their history and of the situation there .
these people deserve their own country and own security and the ability to defend themselves against any other form of persecution as they have suffered over the centuries many many times

And I understand it's a complex situation on the ground , if they give the West bank ,Israel at its narrowest point is only something like 9 miles across ,which militarily is indefensible ,also giving up the Jordan valley would we cause problems not only of defence but water resources ,which will become a big issue in the coming years

I've always visited the West bank ,which to put it mildly is a shithole and has huge problems with poverty and unemployment ,which is fertile grounds for the terrorists sadly

Again I'll say it ,Israel and the Jewish people have right to exist in peace and security like every other nation and hope they are never persecuted again

But as I said in my previous post ,I really wish that a people that have had such a tragic and persecuted history will hopefully show compassion and try and solve the situation to the benefit of everyone on that land

Ps I'm no a student ,I'm 55

 

[Murphy]

Just had a quick look at the wiki page for this - seems it has been discredited as a scientific study.

However, I understand that in a given situation if a charismatic leader emerges in a group of people, then their influence will spread through the group.

The findings are still valid. The experiment was criticised on ethical and scientific grounds but that doesnt negate its findings.

 

[BlueBaloo]

There was a lovely old lady lived across the road from us who died a few years back; she had a tattoo on her arm from one of the camps. God alone knows what stories she could have told but she never referred to what happened to her. It’s impossible to comprehend the thought processes of people who could devise a plan to eliminate a whole race of human beings.

Same mate
Lovely old couple had a wee shop for years and he had the tattoos.

He never spoke about

 

[stevie1969]

The findings are still valid. The experiment was criticised on ethical and scientific grounds but that doesnt negate its findings.

Eh?

 

[jtc]

Iv been in the Yad Vashem in Jerusalem ,the Holocaust museum .Twice .
Something else tbh.
God Bless Israel

 

[Sir Sasa Papac]

Who's blaming Israel ??
I'm very pro Israel ,having been a few times and being very knowledgeable about their history and of the situation there .
these people deserve their own country and own security and the ability to defend themselves against any other form of persecution as they have suffered over the centuries many many times

And I understand it's a complex situation on the ground , if they give the West bank ,Israel at its narrowest point is only something like 9 miles across ,which militarily is indefensible ,also giving up the Jordan valley would we cause problems not only of defence but water resources ,which will become a big issue in the coming years

I've always visited the West bank ,which to put it mildly is a shithole and has huge problems with poverty and unemployment ,which is fertile grounds for the terrorists sadly

Again I'll say it ,Israel and the Jewish people have right to exist in peace and security like every other nation and hope they are never persecuted again

But as I said in my previous post ,I really wish that a people that have had such a tragic and persecuted history will hopefully show compassion and try and solve the situation to the benefit of everyone on that land

Ps I'm no a student ,I'm 55

I didnt think you were a student but stating that the Jewish people should “show more compassion and try to come to a fair and just peace agreement with the Palestinians” is top level student patter. Holding a bong watching Channel 4 news with a che Guevara t shirt level of naivety.

It’s not within Israel’s power for peace, they’d have signed up to it decades ago if they could. One of the main reasons they keep taking land is to pushback those who fire rockets indescriminantly into Israel.

Over 10% of Israel are Arab. How many Jews are there in Iran, Palestine, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan or Iraq? None. It’s not the Israelis who lack tolerance in the Middle East

The Palestinians could have their own shithole of a country tomorrow if they wanted it but they don’t, they want the Jews to %^*& off. That’s it. There’s no reasoning with savages like that and there will never be peace in the Middle East as long as they proudly despise the very idea of Jews. They don’t even try to hide it

https://twitter.com/x/status/1263742339891298304

 

[weesp]

My Grandad was also one of those who liberated Belsen.

After the war, he would pace around his house in the middle of the night. This continued for years. Then one of his daughter married a soldier, late 70s early 80s, and she moved to Bergen. The auld yin and my granny visited them, and one day he just disappeared. The family were just about to phone the MPs, when he came back. After some choice words it was established he went back to Belsen.

He never paced the house again. He made his peace.

The horrors of those that witnessed it must have weighed heavy, but for those that lived it is on a different scale.

Glad he found peace mate. God bless him

 

[The People]

Agree with a lot of that mate

And Israel has already done " land for peace "
ie the Gaza strip ,where not on!y did Hamas immediately start firing rockets into Israel ,but destroyed all the farming infrastructure that the settlers had built

Also pulling out of southern Lebanon has moved the terrorists closer to israels northern border
As I mentioned they are not going to give up the West bank ,especially the Jordan valley for military reasons

Again I agree the surrounding Arab countries have ethnically cleansed jews from those countries where they had lived for centuries
And it's nearer 20% the Israeli Arab population, who are full citizens ,join the army ,can become judges ,politicians etc

For me Israel is one of the best countries I've ever been too and they are right to defend themselves and take any means necessary .

But again there ultimately has to be a solution to the issue with the Palestinians ,the cycle has got to end

 

[ResoluteLoyal73]

The Poles had every reason to hate the Nazis for the Nazis really persecuted them. Why after everything that history has taught us would anyone subscribe to that sick philosophy?

W.A.T.P.

The Poles who are Nazis are catholic . The persecuted were predominantly Jewish. National socialism was very active in Poland in the 1930s.
The Catholic Church provided sanctuary to the Americas for Nazi War criminals . Some Nazis had prominent roles within European and international politics during the 1950s- early seventies .
A lot of people in in the United Kingdom don’t know of the Catholic Nuns applauding the SS grabbing men, pensioners, and entire families including children from their homes, in a violent manner to the death camps .
There is actual video footage of these actions.
So I find the the constant about Catholic persecution in Scotland , disheartening .
There is a rife anti semitism, anti Protestant fervour in Scotland that is pervasive within the self proclaimed “ progressive voices “ of Scottish politics .
My name, and family history reminds me of what fascism really is, I will never forget my origins, I don’ t speak a word of Polish, I’m British ! Loyal and True. The Tim’s false persecution is infuriating and without credence

 

[stevie1969]

Europe as a whole has a torrid history of anti-semitism.
Hitler followed what Martin Luther said almost to the word :

• "First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools … This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians …"
• "Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed."
• "Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them."
• "Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb …"
• "Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside …"
• "Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them …"
• "Seventh, I recommend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow … But if we are afraid that they might harm us or our wives, children, servants, cattle, etc., … then let us emulate the common sense of other nations such as France, Spain, Bohemia, etc., … then eject them forever from the country …"

 

[Hillheadbear]

The Poles who are Nazis are catholic . The persecuted were predominantly Jewish. National socialism was very active in Poland in the 1930s.
The Catholic Church provided sanctuary to the Americas for Nazi War criminals . Some Nazis had prominent roles within European and international politics during the 1950s- early seventies .
A lot of people in in the United Kingdom don’t know of the Catholic Nuns applauding the SS grabbing men, pensioners, and entire families including children from their homes, in a violent manner to the death camps .
There is actual video footage of these actions.
So I find the the constant about Catholic persecution in Scotland , disheartening .
There is a rife anti semitism, anti Protestant fervour in Scotland that is pervasive within the self proclaimed “ progressive voices “ of Scottish politics .
My name, and family history reminds me of what fascism really is, I will never forget my origins, I don’ t speak a word of Polish, I’m British ! Loyal and True. The Tim’s false persecution is infuriating and without credence

That is why Jewish people, and even those who are part Jewish, support Israel for all its faults. Because Israel is the lifeboat. One never knows when anti-semitism will rear its ugly head. Who would have thought that, in the UK, it would come from the left and the Labour party?

However, if you are Jewish or part Jewish, there is always Israel. Armed to the teeth and willing to fight. The Jews of Europe didn't have that in the 1930s. Neither did the millions who fled the pogroms at the end of the 19th century.

It is just one of the reasons why remembering the holocaust is so important. We have to remember what casual anti-semitism can lead to.

 

[Broxi12]

The forgotten highlander is a really good book written by a Japanese pow from Scotland, hard read but I’d certainly recommend it

That about the guy from Aberdeen area? read it a few years ago if so.. Japanese were Ba5t4rd5
Hell of a tougher generation then than the moisturiser brigade of today..

 

[Broxi12]

Europe as a whole has a torrid history of anti-semitism.
Hitler followed what Martin Luther said almost to the word :

• "First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools … This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians …"
• "Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed."
• "Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them."
• "Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb …"
• "Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside …"
• "Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them …"
• "Seventh, I recommend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow … But if we are afraid that they might harm us or our wives, children, servants, cattle, etc., … then let us emulate the common sense of other nations such as France, Spain, Bohemia, etc., … then eject them forever from the country …"

I'm not religous and not into middle east history but confused..
First point above, why should Christions set fie to synagogues etc? was Jesus not Jewish when/if he was born? Why the love of Jesus from christians if he was Jewish...?
Totally confused...

 

[stevie1969]

I'm not religous and not into middle east history but confused..
First point above, why should Christions set fie to synagogues etc? was Jesus not Jewish when/if he was born? Why the love of Jesus from christians if he was Jewish...?
Totally confused...

I'm in no way religious either.
Just been reading about Luther since this thread came up.

Apparently he initially wanted all the Jews to convert to Christianity, but said why would they want to be part of Christianity when we treat them like animals -

"If I had been a Jew and had seen such dolts and blockheads govern and teach the Christian faith, I would sooner have become a hog than a Christian. They have dealt with the Jews as if they were dogs rather than human beings; they have done little else than deride them and seize their property. When they baptize them they show them nothing of Christian doctrine or life, but only subject them to popishness and mockery...If the apostles, who also were Jews, had dealt with us Gentiles as we Gentiles deal with the Jews, there would never have been a Christian among the Gentiles".

That quote, if wiki is right, is from an essay he wrote 20 years prior to the quotes in my previous post.

He's broke away from popery and then becomes another religious zealot.

Religion is not for me.

 

[Broxi12]

I'm in no way religious either.
Just been reading about Luther since this thread came up.

Apparently he initially wanted all the Jews to convert to Christianity, but said why would they want to be part of Christianity when we treat them like animals -

"If I had been a Jew and had seen such dolts and blockheads govern and teach the Christian faith, I would sooner have become a hog than a Christian. They have dealt with the Jews as if they were dogs rather than human beings; they have done little else than deride them and seize their property. When they baptize them they show them nothing of Christian doctrine or life, but only subject them to popishness and mockery...If the apostles, who also were Jews, had dealt with us Gentiles as we Gentiles deal with the Jews, there would never have been a Christian among the Gentiles".

That quote, if wiki is right, is from an essay he wrote 20 years prior to the quotes in my previous post.

He's broke away from popery and then becomes another religious zealot.

Religion is not for me.

Religion, although folk think it makes them feel better is the cause of most wars/ terrorist attacks..
Should tell congregations the truth about how many folk die, following a religion praying to an imaginary god instead of dealing with the hard facts of life.. God won't save you..

 

[kincardinefc]

Was at the Holocaust memorial in Bonnybridge yesterday. There was a speaker from Edinburgh who was the Daughter of Ernest Levy. She read a few pages from his book

The Single Light (Library of Holocaust Testimonies) (Library of Holocaust Testimonies)​

I was gripped with the short reading she done. Went and bought the book today. Any other recommendations for books to read on such a subject ? I’m just about to start The boy who drew Auschwitz.

 

[Sir Sasa Papac]

Agree with a lot of that mate

And Israel has already done " land for peace "
ie the Gaza strip ,where not on!y did Hamas immediately start firing rockets into Israel ,but destroyed all the farming infrastructure that the settlers had built

Also pulling out of southern Lebanon has moved the terrorists closer to israels northern border
As I mentioned they are not going to give up the West bank ,especially the Jordan valley for military reasons

Again I agree the surrounding Arab countries have ethnically cleansed jews from those countries where they had lived for centuries
And it's nearer 20% the Israeli Arab population, who are full citizens ,join the army ,can become judges ,politicians etc

For me Israel is one of the best countries I've ever been too and they are right to defend themselves and take any means necessary .

But again there ultimately has to be a solution to the issue with the Palestinians ,the cycle has got to end

Only one country in the world requires a literal dome around its country to stop it getting destroyed by rockets by at least 3 of its neighbours. They aren’t even in a war but are in constant danger

Israel has nuclear weapons and the rest of the Middle East is 100% safe from them. It’s a defensive weapon same as the protection Dome, Israel are in no way the aggressors here. Can anyone honestly say the same about Israel if Iran, Hamas or the PLO had nukes? They’d be gone in the blink of an eye

Furthermore Israel has shown it will sign peace deals with any Arab country brave enough to also sign up, as the recent deals with Bahrain and the UAE have demonstrated.

I feel immense sympathy with Israel, by far the most hated country in the world and there is nothing they can do to stop being seen as the aggressors in a region which has literally and consistently vowed to destroy them. Clearly the remnants of global antisemitism continues to bubble away, overtly in Arab countries and covertly in Western liberalism

 

[Sir Sasa Papac]

That is why Jewish people, and even those who are part Jewish, support Israel for all its faults. Because Israel is the lifeboat. One never knows when anti-semitism will rear its ugly head. Who would have thought that, in the UK, it would come from the left and the Labour party?

However, if you are Jewish or part Jewish, there is always Israel. Armed to the teeth and willing to fight. The Jews of Europe didn't have that in the 1930s. Neither did the millions who fled the pogroms at the end of the 19th century.

It is just one of the reasons why remembering the holocaust is so important. We have to remember what casual anti-semitism can lead to.

In the U.K. and other Western democracies modern anti semitism was always likely to come from the left. Obviously it’s prevalent in the hard right too but it settles much more comfortable in the middle left than the middle right.

It feeds into the communist/socialist doctrine against organised power, existing hierarchies and centralised wealth, which they see as run and controlled by Jews. They call it anti-Zionism because when your reapplying failed narratives and old tropes you need to brand it in a different way so as not to be seen sharing a platform with the geezer who slaughtered a few million Jews.

For some reason, hard left politics can have a place in modern society in a way hard right politics simply is not tolerated. It’s very odd but mainly concerned with the intellectual class, the lecturers, the teachers, the columnists, pretending it’s somehow different, not as hateful or dangerous. But it is

 

[cloodie]

Yep, I also read that book and it really shows you how ordinary people can get caught up in this. People who had never committed a crime in their life.

I was going to say that was the name of the book but it was 'Ordinary Men', which really is the perfect title for it.

 

[The People]

Only one country in the world requires a literal dome around its country to stop it getting destroyed by rockets by at least 3 of its neighbours. They aren’t even in a war but are in constant danger

Israel has nuclear weapons and the rest of the Middle East is 100% safe from them. It’s a defensive weapon same as the protection Dome, Israel are in no way the aggressors here. Can anyone honestly say the same about Israel if Iran, Hamas or the PLO had nukes? They’d be gone in the blink of an eye

Furthermore Israel has shown it will sign peace deals with any Arab country brave enough to also sign up, as the recent deals with Bahrain and the UAE have demonstrated.

I feel immense sympathy with Israel, by far the most hated country in the world and there is nothing they can do to stop being seen as the aggressors in a region which has literally and consistently vowed to destroy them. Clearly the remnants of global antisemitism continues to bubble away, overtly in Arab countries and covertly in Western liberalism

Again I am aware of all that and I agree with you
And it's good to chat to someone who is knowledgeable of the situation,instead of some folk that likes jumping on the blame Israel bandwagon,when they don't know what their talking about

Israel is a unique wee country and full of innovation and some the biggest hi tech companies in the world ,they have turned a mostly barren patch of land into a thriving ,buoyant country and economy in only about 80 years
And to have done this when countries around them who have been trying to wipe them off the map is an incredible achievement They are a tremendous people and deserve to live in peace free from terrorism

They should have and do have a zero tolerance to any threat to their existence and I fully support that and never again should they face the persecution they have faced over the centuries in Europe

But I still stick to my point , as a humanist I think they need to take the innovative in coming to some sort of solution with the Palestinians and help stop the cycle of violence
Not all of the Palestinian people are terrorists ,they are just ordinarily human beings who want a better life ,security ,jobs etc

 

[Sir Sasa Papac]

Again I am aware of all that and I agree with you
And it's good to chat to someone who is knowledgeable of the situation,instead of some folk that likes jumping on the blame Israel bandwagon,when they don't know what their talking about

Israel is a unique wee country and full of innovation and some the biggest hi tech companies in the world ,they have turned a mostly barren patch of land into a thriving ,buoyant country and economy in only about 80 years
And to have done this when countries around them who have been trying to wipe them off the map is an incredible achievement They are a tremendous people and deserve to live in peace free from terrorism

They should have and do have a zero tolerance to any threat to their existence and I fully support that and never again should they face the persecution they have faced over the centuries in Europe

But I still stick to my point , as a humanist I think they need to take the innovative in coming to some sort of solution with the Palestinians and help stop the cycle of violence
Not all of the Palestinian people are terrorists ,they are just ordinarily human beings who want a better life ,security ,jobs etc

I tend to agree with your posts up until your last paragraph which always goes back to stating Israel should make peace. It’s not possible, for the many reasons I’ve stated already.

I literally posted a tweet from the Supreme leader of Iran barely 18 months ago reasserting his commitment to the complete obliteration of Israel through jihad. Their religion as they understand it, demands it. Iran are 10 times bigger in population and hundreds of times bigger in landmass.

There is no pressure you could exert, no violence you could threaten and no riches you could offer him that would make him sit at a table with Jews. The hate is ingrained, they are the only country in the world who are making a nuclear weapon with the stated aim of using it aggressively. Intolerant, violent savages