Rangers tweet regarding Holocaust.
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Mosesmcneil
Well-Known Member
Thats amazing and heartbreaking at the same time.
knightswood_bear
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I heard from family members that my grandad was a totally different man when he came back from the war. He was Royal Navy and I’m pretty sure they were one of the first ships into Singapore at the end of the war.
He didn’t really talk about any of it in any detail.
Glasgowsteve
Well-Known Member
The Nazi death machine was beyond imagining. I read recently that the total killed by them was in the order of 19-21m.
senefelder
Well-Known Member
There was an excellent docu drama around 15 years ago on the subject starring Scots actor Ian Glen as the army doctor placed in charge of the recovery at the camp. What is perhaps not widely known is that the Allies and the Germans had called a truce owing to Typhus in the camp and there were in fact German soldiers stationed there whilst the work of our lads went on to stop people dying in their dozens every day. On the day the truce ended the Germans were allowed to march out of the camp back to their lines, and it was found that they'd sabotaged the water supply that had been built and crucial to containing Typhus. The very personification of evil.
"Its impossible to comprehend the thought processes of people who could devise a plan to eliminate a whole race of human beings".
That sums up the problem. It actually isnt that hard to comprehend. They live amongst us. They are "us".
Clicker
Well-Known Member
When I was growing up in the 60s there was a wee drapery shop round in Govan Road, my mother and her family just referred to it as “the Jewess”. I remember it was run by a wee, thin, dark-haired woman with a funny accent. It wasn’t until years later I started to wonder if she had been a refugee from somewhere in Europe and if she had been a victim of persecution, striving to make a new life for herself.
As there are less and less survivors remaining it is up to the rest of humanity to keep their history alive and as true to the facts as possible.
As there are less and less survivors remaining it is up to the rest of humanity to keep their history alive and as true to the facts as possible.
stevie1969
Well-Known Member
Program just starting on BBC2 now about survivors getting portraits paintEd for Queen's collection
stevie1969
Well-Known Member
Can you remember the name of it?
Neilstonger
Well-Known Member
There are, of course, too many evil bastards who live amongst us but the Holocaust was evil perpetrated on an industrial scale. It’s that I can’t comprehend.
Maybe with regards to POW's from the Western nations but their treatment of POW's from the Russian campaign was horrific.
Yeah.
Remember the pictures coming out with men looking like something from the past.
Rwanda as well m8.
Both times the UN stood and done nothing.
Might as well take millions of £££s and burn it.
Read a few books on it.
Babies being shot in their cots.
Concentration camps.
etc etc.
Remember one neighbour who was friends for years.
The war broke out.
The boy remembers the neighbour coming and taking his dad away and never to be seen again.
Had Auschwitz booked and had to cancel due to the covid outbreak.
Still want to go after reading books on it.
We never learn as it will happen again somewhere.
RFC Graham
Well-Known Member
I will never forget visiting Bergen Belsen around 20 years ago.
It was so, so sad & shocking what happened Jews there.
The mass graves with thousands buried, really hit home the evil deeds, which they suffered.
It was without doubt an eerie place.
Also seen Anne & Margot Frank's grave there.
It was so, so sad & shocking what happened Jews there.
The mass graves with thousands buried, really hit home the evil deeds, which they suffered.
It was without doubt an eerie place.
Also seen Anne & Margot Frank's grave there.
Calderwoodloyal
Well-Known Member
Watched it. Horrific, bewildering and worrying in equal measure
Carltonblue
Well-Known Member
Let’s not forget the Nazis were hellbent on eradicating the Slavs as well. The invasion of Russia was to create “living space” by removing them from the face of the earth, with SS men following behind the invading forces to kill off the remaining survivors.
dublinbluenose
Well-Known Member
The Germans were of the mindset that all Slavs were a lessser race than Germans and they didn’t view Russian soldiers captured as prisoners of war.mind you wasnt much fun for any Germans captured by the Russians either.
Truckerman
Well-Known Member
My Dad's twin brother helped liberate Belsen he didn't talk about, all he ever said to me about it, was the smell and which way the wind blew you could smell it for over a mile away.
My Dad was one of the soldiers who went in to that camp on the day it was liberated.
He was only 24 and I really do wonder what effect it had on him - a country boy from the North Riding of Yorkshire who before the War hadn't been further from home than Scarborough.
He was a Dunkirk and the Normandy landings too.
He joined the Police after the War and always seemed very calm and together but who knows what went through his mind.
He spoke about it a little, but not much and died at 60 with many stories untold I am sure.
Lewis Caw
Well-Known Member
A few years ago a mate of mine did an article on a Dundee guy killed at Auschwitz.
www.thecourier.co.uk
Dundee man was forgotten victim of Holocaust
Haunted eyes, haggard face and that grimly familiar striped uniform. There’s something dark and tragic about the picture — even before you notice the word
www.thecourier.co.uk
I've done Auschwitz twice. I would make it compulsory for every child in first year at secondary school to visit it with the cost being borne by the EU or government. Let the kids witness what happens when things spiral out of control.
bear wi nae hair
Well-Known Member
I might tell the missus this starts tomorrow at 9am!
Bluenose Rab
Well-Known Member
Read it. As you say, a hard read, but very powerful. Made me think of my late Papa.
Countless thousands, millions, have suffered and still do, in pointless dick-measuring fights where those responsible sit and watch. And still happening. Will people never learn?
mdingwall
Administrator
Frau Dobschiner - aka Hansie Douglas
I recently picked up a copy of the autobiography of Hansie Douglas in a Clydebank charity shop - a remarkable Jewish lady who survived Nazi persecution.
Her life and work - she married a Scotsman, she was a convert to Christianity - and tirelessly toured schools and churches telling her story - are a shining example of survival and forgiveness.
I can still remember the frisson that went around when news came that “Frau Dobschiner” - as we knew her - was coming to speak in a local church.
She’s one of several reasons why I’m such a keen supporter of the State of Israel. After such a demonic persecution, utterly unlike anything before or since, there’s simply no question that the Jewish people need a place of refuge.
I attach an obituary which appeared in the Glasgow Herald. One aspect of her story is that of the Bastiaan Ader - a Dutch pastor who hid her and who was murdered by the Gestapo for helping over 200 Jews escape persecution.
A prayer group still meets in Hansie's name on the south side of Glasgow once a month and quietly raises charitable funds in her memory.
I recently picked up a copy of the autobiography of Hansie Douglas in a Clydebank charity shop - a remarkable Jewish lady who survived Nazi persecution.
Her life and work - she married a Scotsman, she was a convert to Christianity - and tirelessly toured schools and churches telling her story - are a shining example of survival and forgiveness.
I can still remember the frisson that went around when news came that “Frau Dobschiner” - as we knew her - was coming to speak in a local church.
She’s one of several reasons why I’m such a keen supporter of the State of Israel. After such a demonic persecution, utterly unlike anything before or since, there’s simply no question that the Jewish people need a place of refuge.
I attach an obituary which appeared in the Glasgow Herald. One aspect of her story is that of the Bastiaan Ader - a Dutch pastor who hid her and who was murdered by the Gestapo for helping over 200 Jews escape persecution.
A prayer group still meets in Hansie's name on the south side of Glasgow once a month and quietly raises charitable funds in her memory.
TheDerryend
Well-Known Member
Well said sir. The tragic film of the women in Bergen Belsen holding the British soldiers hand tells a thousand stories.
A simple act of kindness by the soldier and a women who couldn't let go of that small act of compassion.
TheDerryend
Well-Known Member
I seen it. One thing I took from it was the generation that was born after the 1st world war didn't stand a chance.
Caldow3
Well-Known Member
When I was in the Army, it was back around 1986, in Germany. There was a break in one of the Exercises we were doing. Our Platoon Commander arranged transport to visit the Bergen-Belsen camp.
I totally agree with you captainscarlett, I came away from there shocked and somewhat confused why anyone could carry out that type of murderous crime. It has stuck with me ever since.
This happened, should never be forgotten and be taught to every up and coming generation.
TheDerryend
Well-Known Member
Night will fall, just started on more 4.
tambourineman
Well-Known Member
A few years ago a mate of mine did an article on a Dundee guy killed at Auschwitz.
Dundee man was forgotten victim of Holocaust
Haunted eyes, haggard face and that grimly familiar striped uniform. There’s something dark and tragic about the picture — even before you notice the word
That is an outstanding article. It shouldn't make any difference, given the horror and scale of the Nazi horror, but the fact the man was Scottish somehow impacts you more.
On a more general note I just cannot bring myself to visit a concentration camp site. I cannot comprehend that you are a lawyer, joiner, street sweeper, cleaner or wealthy businessman; and you end up persecuted and in a concentration camp. How did this happen in civilised, rational Germany??
senefelder
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately no, however as I said Ian Glen played the Army Doctor. I'm sure his character in later life went on to be the senior medical officer in the MOD.
senefelder
Well-Known Member
Google search says Relief of Belsen. I was correct on timeline as it was made in 2007. BAFTA nominated.
temperance
Well-Known Member
Yes, we were not popular with the Nazis, and to think that some imbeciles still deny it ever happened.
My point is its not "evil bastards who live amongst us". Its US. Ordinary people like me and you.
The idea that its THEM and not US is a cop out.
You see it on here when one of our fans steps out of line. The lynch mob jumps in demanding life time bans for THEM.
buzzardbear244
Well-Known Member
Possibly this one?...... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Relief_of_Belsen
Neilstonger
Well-Known Member
We are not all capable of the evil perpetrated by Hitler and his subordinates. I accept that everyone in every society has a role to play in stopping such atrocities but society as a whole cannot be blamed when individuals commit horrific crimes at an any level.
Your last point doesn't make sense. For a start, most Bears on FF when disagreeing with a poster (as we are now) have a rational debate and don't call for life bans. And if they did, what else could they do other than call for a ban for the transgressor ie them?
My last point was about the mob mentality that leads individuals to point the finger at others as a way to make themselves different/superior.
There are some great studies by Asch et al into peer pressure and conformity
mdingwall
Administrator
Ultimately many are - Christopher Browning's "Reserve Police Battalion 101" details how manly working class people from ordinary jobs in a left-leaning city came to kill thousands with very few of them being committed Nazis.
Likewise many of those who committed atrocities for Stalin were normal.
What was abnormal was the circumstances they found themselves in and the leaders appointed above them.
In the East during the time of the Holocaust you had a hard-core of Nazis - usually called 'radicals in the Party' - providing an ideological basis, an indifferent majority softened by years of propaganda, remoteness or strangeness of a foreign land, and large areas in which camps and killing grounds could be hidden.
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
Pastor Martin Niemoller.
GovanFront4
Well-Known Member
The West and most noticeably the US were a disgrace when it came to Rwanda. If they had called it genocide they would by law have to intervene. Yet they must have bought a thesaurus as they used every word but that. Soon as it was over they called it a genocide. They were terrified of another Mogadishu incident.
Ethnic cleansing has also taken place in Ulster within the last century. Residents on the border attacked and land grabbed simply because they were Protestant.
Langsider
Well-Known Member
We sometimes forget that few actually even knew about the camps before they were discovered. It's bad enough to image what they would have been like with fore knowledge, but imagine stumbling across one having no idea what had been going on. That's not something anyone could put out of thier mind.
pepsimax73
Well-Known Member
The figures are 11 million including 6 million Jews. You could combine Hitler and Stalin death tolls and still get no where near Mao Zedong.
I can remember when I was on holiday in Jersey 44 years ago my mum and dad took me and my brothers to a cave that the nazis had used to experiment on people, I was 4 and I can still see the atrocities carried out.
stevie1969
Well-Known Member
Did it not take years of "education" to make ordinary people come to believe what they were doing was "just"?
The Nazi factory was brainwashing from the early thirties.
The Nazi factory was brainwashing from the early thirties.
stevie1969
Well-Known Member
Yes, that's it.
Just watched it now. It's on youtube.
Kind of docu-drama - film broken up with actual photos and footage.
There was still hundreds of people dying every day for days after liberation until we could a hold of disease and getting the correct nutrition for them.
Neilstonger
Well-Known Member
Fair enough; i better understand your point now. I have to defer to your better understanding of this subject. My opinion is based solely on a personal view of the world.
I read a lot of books and watch documentaries on all of this stuff.
NI borders were a dangerous place to live.
Worked with a few lads who were in the SA army that went into Soweto ghettos.
One of them brought a book out about wars with SA and Namibia.
Told me how they tried to track someone who climbed along a fence for over a mile to hide any footprints.
Atrocities in every war.
Vietnam was another one.
Definitely agree with what you say with Rawanda.
If Rawanda had huge oil reserves,forces would’ve been in there as the first bullet was fired m8.
Simply a Bear
Well-Known Member
I posted this link in the lounge yesterday. There are some good and informative videos on this channel.
I visited Auschwitz Birkenau a couple of years ago in the winter.
I’d make it required visiting for everyone if I could. It’s absolutely heartbreaking to visit.
Never forget that these atrocities happened during the lives of quite a few survivors still with us today.
I’d make it required visiting for everyone if I could. It’s absolutely heartbreaking to visit.
Never forget that these atrocities happened during the lives of quite a few survivors still with us today.
I went to school at a school that had a significant Jewish population, to the extent that we had a separate Jewish assembly in the morning.
Anyway, I remember visiting one friends house and being surprised to find suitcases in the kitchen on top of the wall units. My friend told me they were his parents as they kept them packed at all times in case they ever had to flee suddenly, as a result of their family’s experiences on mainland Europe during the war.
