Re-watched the game v Hearts - Ryan Jack was outstanding

bilkobear said:
Even if I concurred with that, what does that prove?
In that same period as a club, we have won nothing.
Being consistently average isn't much of a testament for a Rangers player.

He can do lots of things well, but nothing much to the level required to win difficult matches.
He doesn't make quick difficult defence-splitting passes because he lacks the range in his passing.
He rarely scores because he lacks an accurate or explosive shot from distance.
He rarely gets into the box because he doesn't have the intuition to arrive at the right time to blind side a defence.
He doesn't have good technical skills in tight areas.
He rarely drives the team forward because he lacks drive and the skill to accelerate past an opponent.

However, he has mastered the sideways pass, he understands his limitations and doesn't give the ball away too often by usually choosing the safe pass.
He can tackle and get inside an opponent's personal space to disrupt their play.
He has good discipline in positioning and good concentration in his defensive duties.
Although lacking pace, he nonetheless has a very good engine.
He is unselfish and a good team performer and a grafter to boot.
He is a very likeable lad.

In short, he is a squad player.
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As I've said it's all about balance.
We won titles with Mo Edu in midfield, a very limited footballer.
 
Alex Venters said:
Jim Baxter, genius that he undoubtedly was, relied on the likes of Greig, Davis and Caldow to do the things he couldn't and allow him to do what he did best. It's all about finding the correct balance. Ryan Jack does a good job for the team.
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I concur.

My point being that Armstrong would do an even better job because he's a much better player. He can do everything Jack does but has a lot more in his locker.
 
Jack has one less goal than kent and candieas, baring in mind he scored his first vs the mentally challengeds and should have scored against them at the dome. Very underrated player. People don’t understand unless you are a centre attacking mid or centre forward he’s not going to score 10+ goals a season. Thats down to our wingers, CAM and striker. As mentioned on the thread, fernandinho, verratti, busquettes, kante etc dont score goals for fun.
 
Harthill Bill said:
And what's your point caller?

I'm glad you accept that one was a defender and the other a midfielder.

The defence rests m'laud.
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The inverted commas were used for a specific reason.

Greig was a right half, becoming a midfielder when formations changed.

He only became a defender mid 70s and even then not always.

Barcelona he played in midfield, as Jardine, DJ, Smith and Mathieson were back 4.

Centenary cup final midfield again.

Earlier in his career Shearer and Caldow the full backs and then Johansen and Mathieson.

Midfield or half back the majority of his career.
 
In the past few weeks, I’ve seen the FF brainboxes claim that we should be upgrading Tavernier and Arfield and now we’re seeing the same things said about Jack.

You’ve got to wonder what some people are watching, or how much money they think we must have.
 
Harthill Bill said:
Most people, including me, would argue that John Greig was a defender.

Google's yer friend.
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Then you'd be wrong.
He was a defensive player, rather than a defender. He first broke into the side in 1961-62 as an inside forward(attacking midfielder today) before cementing his place as a right-half (defensive midfielder) sitting behind Baxter and McMillan. This was his regular position for the next decade. He was good enough and versatile enough to fill in at CB and in both full back positions when required.
 
Alex Venters said:
Then you'd be wrong.
He was a defensive player, rather than a defender. He first broke into the side in 1961-62 as an inside forward(attacking midfielder today) before cementing his place as a right-half (defensive midfielder) sitting behind Baxter and McMillan. This was his regular position for the next decade. He was good enough and versatile enough to fill in at CB and in both full back positions when required.
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Give over mate, you're playing with words now.

John Greig, MBE (born 11 September 1942 in Edinburgh) is a Scottish former professional footballer, who played as a defender. He spent his entire career with Rangers, as a player, manager and director. Greig was voted "The Greatest Ever Ranger" in 1999 by the club's supporters[1] and has been elected to Rangers' Hall of Fame.
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Most people would identify with John Greig as a defender and not a midfielder. To be fair he excelled in both positions such was his desire to win.
 
AllyRFC said:
Iv never understood the amount of stick Jack gets on here. Hes been one of our most consistent performers since he was signed.
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Because he doesn't blast up the middle from box to box, creating five chances a match.

Too many probably don't notice what his job and style of doing it, is.
 
Harthill Bill said:
Yeah, I saw him too. Being going to Ibrox since 1963.

A true leader and a great defender.
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I'm only 26 so I never saw him.

I know enough about the history of our club to know the full backs and central defenders who played in the same teams as him while Greig played further forward as a half back or midfielder.

Probably be 1974 before he regularly played as a defender.
 
Alex Venters said:
Then you should know the difference between a defender and a midfielder!!
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Most of my memories of John Greig are as a defender - not a midfielder.

But to be honest mate you're boring me to death now. If you want to believe he was a midfielder and played more games there then carry on.
 
MearnsUnionist said:
I'm only 26 so I never saw him.

I know enough about the history of our club to know the full backs and central defenders who played in the same teams as him while Greig played further forward as a half back or midfielder.

Probably be 1974 before he regularly played as a defender.
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A wee book that might be worth your while reading if you've not already done so.

"The Rangers Football Companion", a factual history, 1946 to 1986.

390 pages of the essential guide to everything Rangers.
 
Jack needs better players around him in order to flourish. His job is to get the ball and recycle it.

Too many times this season, those around him have been hiding and Jack's got no option but to pass it back the way.

In recent weeks with Kamara, Davis and Arfield he's been able to be far more productive with the ball. And all the new activity in midfield even allowed Jack to make that surging run into the box to get in and score at the weekend.
 
Jack’s playing with a lot more confidence which is evidenced by his ability to retain possession.

There was a point in the game where he was surrounded by 3 hearts players in the midfield and he sent them the wrong direction before keeping the ball and moving forward (41:10 if you are watching again)

The way he won possession and started the move for his goal was pleasing too.

I’m of the opinion that Jack has had a really stop start beginning to his career with us due to suspension and injuries so we are really only now getting to see him grow into the jersey.
 
Alex Venters said:
John Greig and Jim Baxter were both midfielders but you wouldn't actually compare one with the other, would you?
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John Greig scored like an attacking midfielder and drove the game from his position yet in the modern game he would be classed as a defensive midfielder.
Baxter on the other hand didn't score as often and would be classed as an attacking midfielder.
Modern equivalent of Baxter would be Modric.
I think defining midfield players is more nuanced than defensive or attacking.
Yesterday Ryan Jack was mostly playing ahead of Steven Davis.
 
Courtesy of Beer Belly Loyal.

In depth look at John Greig's shirt number.

Wore number 8 on debut v Airdrie 1961 (Ian McMillan shirt).
When McMillan wasn't playing Greig wore it. One game in April 1962 v Dunfermline both appeared together for the first time, Greig wore number 10 on that occasion.

Season 1962-63 Number 4 when Harold Davis wasn't playing and No 8 when McMillan was unavailable.

1963-64 Greig number 4 shirt, Davis made 5 appearances (his final games) where Greig wore No 8.

1964-65 Greig claimed the number 4 jersey for himself.

1965-66 He started the first two games with 4, changed to 6, before reverting back to 4 around March (he was No 4 for the Scottish Cup win v bheasts).

1966-67 Started the season with number 3. His first three league appearances he had numbers 3, 8 and 4, he kept the No 4 shirt up until Sandy Jardine made his debut in February 1967, Greig was given the number 6 jersey for the remainder of the season, the shirt he was wearing for the ECWC Final v Bayern Munich (Jardine was No 4).

1967-68 Jardine had No 4, Greig No 6, Jardine then missed most of the season (injury ?) which meant Greig took his number (Dave Smith claimed the number 6 shirt).

1968-69 Greig wore No 4 for this season, although on a couple of occasions he was No 3 and No 6. In one match v Hibernian at Easter Road he wore number 5.

1969-70 & 1970-71. Number 4.

1971-72 Mainly No 4, but for one reason or another over eight consecutive games (including both ECWC games v Sporting Lisbon) Jardine took the number 4 and Greig was 2, they swapped back after these 8 games.

1972-73 Number 4.

1973-74 As previous season, also made two sub appearances (No 12). Played last eight games wearing number 3, the number he kept over the next four seasons before retiring from playing.

In short, Greig wore numbers 2,3,4,5,6,8,10 & 12 over the course of his career.
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In those days shirt numbers indicated the position a player would play in.

Not aiming this at Alex or Mearns Unionist - just thought it was a good piece of information.
 
Alex Venters said:
As I've said it's all about balance.
We won titles with Mo Edu in midfield, a very limited footballer.
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I can't argue with that.
The only caveat I would add is that he was a superbly fit athlete with a tremendous engine and an outstanding attitude.
 
Brydo said:
Jack’s playing with a lot more confidence which is evidenced by his ability to retain possession.

There was a point in the game where he was surrounded by 3 hearts players in the midfield and he sent them the wrong direction before keeping the ball and moving forward (41:10 if you are watching again)

The way he won possession and started the move for his goal was pleasing too.

I’m of the opinion that Jack has had a really stop start beginning to his career with us due to suspension and injuries so we are really only now getting to see him grow into the jersey.
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I hope this is true.
But supporters can only judge a player on what we see in the match.
If there is more to come and hidden talents yet to be showcased, then no one on here will be complaining.
I was impressed by his goal.
 
Never bought into this myth that "he's the most consistent midfielder" for us, seems like the new bandwagon line our support love to have. For me he's an average squad player who did well on Saturday but will never be a top player for us if he doesn't improve his dire through balls, honestly how many times does this guy let you down with that final killer pass? He either doesn't have the right weight on it or he doesn't see it
 
Harthill Bill said:
Most of my memories of John Greig are as a defender - not a midfielder.

But to be honest mate you're boring me to death now. If you want to believe he was a midfielder and played more games there then carry on.
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How long until you get banned this time Logie?

They're taking bets on it in the secret lounge.
 
SecondBestIsNothing said:
Never bought into this myth that "he's the most consistent midfielder" for us, seems like the new bandwagon line our support love to have. For me he's an average squad player who did well on Saturday but will never be a top player for us if he doesn't improve his dire through balls, honestly how many times does this guy let you down with that final killer pass? He either doesn't have the right weight on it or he doesn't see it
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I am not sure he doesn't see it, I think rather he recognises that he lacks the ability to deliver and thus settles for a safe pass.
Which in itself isn't a bad thing, as he doesn't give away possession.
However, he stifles our attacking game, makes us far more pedestrian as a result, and this plays into the type of teams we play against who set up to immediately file back behind the ball in numbers when they lose it.
Ironically Hearts yesterday played a more open game rather like clubs in Europe and it is significant that Ryan Jack can look more effective in such games.
 
Gerrard (one of the best midfielders Britain has ever produced) rates him highly, that's enough for me, tho I thought he was a superb player prior to Gerrard arrived. Some folk on here will never rate him, can only laugh at them tbh
 
bilkobear said:
Even if I concurred with that, what does that prove?
In that same period as a club, we have won nothing.
Being consistently average isn't much of a testament for a Rangers player.

He can do lots of things well, but nothing much to the level required to win difficult matches.
He doesn't make quick difficult defence-splitting passes because he lacks the range in his passing.
He rarely scores because he lacks an accurate or explosive shot from distance.
He rarely gets into the box because he doesn't have the intuition to arrive at the right time to blind side a defence.
He doesn't have good technical skills in tight areas.
He rarely drives the team forward because he lacks drive and the skill to accelerate past an opponent.

However, he has mastered the sideways pass, he understands his limitations and doesn't give the ball away too often by usually choosing the safe pass.
He can tackle and get inside an opponent's personal space to disrupt their play.
He has good discipline in positioning and good concentration in his defensive duties.
Although lacking pace, he nonetheless has a very good engine.
He is unselfish and a good team performer and a grafter to boot.
He is a very likeable lad.

In short, he is a squad player.
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He doesn't have good technical skill in tight areas?
I think you need a new TV mate....I've got a good one makes some of the taller players look a bit shorter though.

My point is this if he's squad player then he'll be joined by everyone else in the midfield then. If we use your measuring stick.

Let's see next season when SG puts a changed team on the pitch I have little doubt Ryan Jack will play in it.
 
DylanGer said:
He doesn't have good technical skill in tight areas?
I think you need a new TV mate....I've got a good one makes some of the taller players look a bit shorter though.

My point is this if he's squad player then he'll be joined by everyone else in the midfield then. If we use your measuring stick.

Let's see next season when SG puts a changed team on the pitch I have little doubt Ryan Jack will play in it.
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I don't think he has good technical skill in tight areas.
He has a very ordinary first touch and a very average return first-time pass.
If he had one expected of a Rangers player he would walk into the Scotland side.

However, this is my opinion.
I have a measure of what I see as a skilful player and so do you.
Clearly, mine is different from yours.

Gerrard may well play him next season.
He does like him because I am sure one of Jack's strengths is that he takes instructions and stays within the game plan.
By the way, this is indeed a really good attribute.

However, unless he improves, then we will still face the same problems when we go up against stuffy teams like Kilmarnock because, Ryan for all his good points, still doesn't move the ball quickly enough or creatively enough to break those sides down.
But of course, that is my opinion.
 
He is the most improved player since Gerrard took over he is very underrated by our support imo
 
bilkobear said:
I don't think he has good technical skill in tight areas.
He has a very ordinary first touch and a very average return first-time pass.
If he had one expected of a Rangers player he would walk into the Scotland side.

However, this is my opinion.
I have a measure of what I see as a skilful player and so do you.
Clearly, mine is different from yours.

Gerrard may well play him next season.
He does like him because I am sure one of Jack's strengths is that he takes instructions and stays within the game plan.
By the way, this is indeed a really good attribute.

However, unless he improves, then we will still face the same problems when we go up against stuffy teams like Kilmarnock because, Ryan for all his good points, still doesn't move the ball quickly enough or creatively enough to break those sides down.
But of course, that is my opinion.
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Technically he's miles better than you are giving him credit for-that's why he will be in the team. He's not there to be the main creative player as you should well know.

It's how you've judged him in comparison though as none of our midfielders are absolute top quality in their roles. That's the level of player we've got at this stage in the process.

I think you and a lot of others either don't understand what his role and don't understand the amount of donkey work required in midfield.
 
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