Telegraph article on HMRC debacle - couple of new bits of info

mdingwall

mdingwall

Administrator
Nevertheless, Telegraph Sport can confirm that legal action will be considered by the Rangers board. The club made no comment on Thursday but it is understood that they intend to undertake a forensic examination of tax and company law in respect of HMRC’s recalculation and its impact.
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If this is so then emails will be coming to light either proving or disproving our suspicions
 
mdingwall said:
www.telegraph.co.uk

Rangers consider taking legal action after HMRC says £50m penalty was ‘too high’

Rangers are considering taking legal action against HM Revenue and Customs after it appeared to admit that it was wrong to have claimed £50 million in penalties from the club’s former operating company, which went into liquidation in 2012 and triggered one of the biggest club crises in Scottish...
www.telegraph.co.uk www.telegraph.co.uk
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What's your personal opinion Mark? Cant see anything coming from it at the moment, could be another 8 years down the line before all the existing challenges are finished up
 
Seen this on twitter. Studied Law at Belfast University.

The senior official who oversaw the #Rangers case was #JimHarra, Director General for Business Tax at the time. He’s now been made First Permanent Secretary & Chief Exec of @HMRCgovuk! He also misled MPs on the Select Committee. He must resign. #JimHarraMustResign #HMRCShambles
 
I posted this on the main thread and got a handful of likes but no actual answer...

'
I just had a wee thought and I wonder if anyone can tell me it is wrong...


Courts have proven that the club has an unbroken history and has simply changed hands.

Does that not mean, that as the same entity, legal recourse could actually come from the club as it stands today instead of the parent company?

If the courts (and literally everyone else in the world except one sub-species of semi-humans) accept that Rangers now is the same as Rangers then, can Rangers, rather than RIFC not pursue damages for loss of income, reputational damage, asset stripping etc as a direct consequence of HMRC making an 'honest mistake'?'
 
As a layman and having no clue, surely the creditors and current administrators of the old company (BDO) are the only ones with a case to chase HMRC? This would mean the thousands of fans and Mr King amongst the creditors though, so a glimmer of light that they can be taken to task.

Rangers as it is now, could they go after HMRC in a civil case of reputational damgage, as the brand took a significant hit in terms of sponsorship, future banking arrangements etc? Cant imagine any other way the current board can pursue them?!?
 
Northampton_Loyalist said:
I posted this on the main thread and got a handful of likes but no actual answer...

'
I just had a wee thought and I wonder if anyone can tell me it is wrong...


Courts have proven that the club has an unbroken history and has simply changed hands.

Does that not mean, that as the same entity, legal recourse could actually come from the club as it stands today instead of the parent company?

I'd be surprised to be honest. Bit like the argument we should settle oldcos debts
If the courts (and literally everyone else in the world except one sub-species of semi-humans) accept that Rangers now is the same as Rangers then, can Rangers, rather than RIFC not pursue damages for loss of income, reputational damage, asset stripping etc as a direct consequence of HMRC making an 'honest mistake'?'
Click to expand...
 
Northampton_Loyalist said:
I posted this on the main thread and got a handful of likes but no actual answer...

'
I just had a wee thought and I wonder if anyone can tell me it is wrong...


Courts have proven that the club has an unbroken history and has simply changed hands.

Does that not mean, that as the same entity, legal recourse could actually come from the club as it stands today instead of the parent company?

If the courts (and literally everyone else in the world except one sub-species of semi-humans) accept that Rangers now is the same as Rangers then, can Rangers, rather than RIFC not pursue damages for loss of income, reputational damage, asset stripping etc as a direct consequence of HMRC making an 'honest mistake'?'
Click to expand...
I believe that if there is a case of HMRC have gone after the incorrect amount then there would be opportunity to look at some sort of legal proceedings. It all hinges on actual facts here rather than whats been going in the past. Was the calculation wrong. Were the penalties wrong. If so then at the very least we should be looking at some sort of legal recourse.
 
jomacbe said:
Seen this on twitter. Studied Law at Belfast University.

The senior official who oversaw the #Rangers case was #JimHarra, Director General for Business Tax at the time. He’s now been made First Permanent Secretary & Chief Exec of @HMRCgovuk! He also misled MPs on the Select Committee. He must resign. #JimHarraMustResign #HMRCShambles
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Check out this Jim Harra on twitter by clicking the hashtags on this tweet. Seems to be plenty wanting his head on a spike for other matters and plenty non-rangers related users warning about his involvement in our case.
 
"Tax barrister Jolyon Maugham QC said on Twitter: “Lots of noise about HMRC and Rangers. But this seems to be the nub of the story. Rangers seems to have persuaded HMRC its tax conduct wasn’t sufficiently culpable to attract a penalty. But HMRC doesn’t seem to accept it assessed Rangers to the wrong amount.”
Asked if he believed HMRC would be liable to pay compensation as a result of their original miscalculation, Maugham replied: “I’m not sure it is even theoretically possible to sue HMRC. But it would take an awful lot more than getting the number wrong.”

Anyone surprised Jolyon went to a catholic university, has been a noted Labour party affiliate in the past, and is busy organising legal blocks on Brexit?
Hmmm, I wonder who was tasked to head-hunt him to run to the mhedia this week and pour cold water on things?
 
EH47 said:
"Tax barrister Jolyon Maugham QC said on Twitter: “Lots of noise about HMRC and Rangers. But this seems to be the nub of the story. Rangers seems to have persuaded HMRC its tax conduct wasn’t sufficiently culpable to attract a penalty. But HMRC doesn’t seem to accept it assessed Rangers to the wrong amount.”
Asked if he believed HMRC would be liable to pay compensation as a result of their original miscalculation, Maugham replied: “I’m not sure it is even theoretically possible to sue HMRC. But it would take an awful lot more than getting the number wrong.”

Anyone surprised Jolyon went to a catholic university, has been a noted Labour party affiliate in the past, and is busy organising legal blocks on Brexit?
Hmmm, I wonder who was tasked to head-hunt him to run to the mhedia this week and pour cold water on things?
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he has been involved in this story for years mate - and on our side for 99% of it.
 
EH47 said:
"Tax barrister Jolyon Maugham QC said on Twitter: “Lots of noise about HMRC and Rangers. But this seems to be the nub of the story. Rangers seems to have persuaded HMRC its tax conduct wasn’t sufficiently culpable to attract a penalty. But HMRC doesn’t seem to accept it assessed Rangers to the wrong amount.”
Asked if he believed HMRC would be liable to pay compensation as a result of their original miscalculation, Maugham replied: “I’m not sure it is even theoretically possible to sue HMRC. But it would take an awful lot more than getting the number wrong.”

Anyone surprised Jolyon went to a catholic university, has been a noted Labour party affiliate in the past, and is busy organising legal blocks on Brexit?
Hmmm, I wonder who was tasked to head-hunt him to run to the mhedia this week and pour cold water on things?
Click to expand...
Jolyon doesnt like it when things dont go his way
As a legal professional any tweets from him on the scandal in the east end?
 
StirlingBear said:
Check out this Jim Harra on twitter by clicking the hashtags on this tweet. Seems to be plenty wanting his head on a spike for other matters and plenty non-rangers related users warning about his involvement in our case.
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Abd so they should, he certainly seems to have his grubby mitts all over this and should rightly be fired for it if shown he’s overstepped the mark which appears to be the case.

I’ll also add, he looks a wrong un, and probably was getting gratification for his actions along with plenty back handlers, monetary and physically.
 
All of this directly affects the club today, has dramatically reduced our finances, ability to compete and ultimately trophies. That’s before we even get to the reputational damage and most importantly of all, people who lost their jobs directly and indirectly.

i can’t see how this can just be dismissed as the old company. There is a clear conspiracy here that was aiming to destroy the club but only achieved years of damage instead.
 
EH47 said:
"Tax barrister Jolyon Maugham QC said on Twitter: “Lots of noise about HMRC and Rangers. But this seems to be the nub of the story. Rangers seems to have persuaded HMRC its tax conduct wasn’t sufficiently culpable to attract a penalty. But HMRC doesn’t seem to accept it assessed Rangers to the wrong amount.”
Asked if he believed HMRC would be liable to pay compensation as a result of their original miscalculation, Maugham replied: “I’m not sure it is even theoretically possible to sue HMRC. But it would take an awful lot more than getting the number wrong.”

Anyone surprised Jolyon went to a catholic university, has been a noted Labour party affiliate in the past, and is busy organising legal blocks on Brexit?
Hmmm, I wonder who was tasked to head-hunt him to run to the mhedia this week and pour cold water on things?
Click to expand...

Jolyon Maugham has backed our side of this debate from a very early stage and nothing hes said here really goes against that
 
EH47 said:
"Tax barrister Jolyon Maugham QC said on Twitter: “Lots of noise about HMRC and Rangers. But this seems to be the nub of the story. Rangers seems to have persuaded HMRC its tax conduct wasn’t sufficiently culpable to attract a penalty. But HMRC doesn’t seem to accept it assessed Rangers to the wrong amount.”
Asked if he believed HMRC would be liable to pay compensation as a result of their original miscalculation, Maugham replied: “I’m not sure it is even theoretically possible to sue HMRC. But it would take an awful lot more than getting the number wrong.”

Anyone surprised Jolyon went to a catholic university, has been a noted Labour party affiliate in the past, and is busy organising legal blocks on Brexit?
Hmmm, I wonder who was tasked to head-hunt him to run to the mhedia this week and pour cold water on things?
Click to expand...
Jolyon was very good throughout the issues, calmly educated people that Rangers didn’t commit a criminal offence but in fact had a dispute with HMRC over a tax bill. The moonhowlers couldn’t stand him.
 
SDM's other businesses were in conflict with HMRC for years. This is primarily his issue; if he sees a return, let him fund the process. If he wins, we can seek our OldCo share value from HMRC too!
 
EH47 said:
"Tax barrister Jolyon Maugham QC said on Twitter: “Lots of noise about HMRC and Rangers. But this seems to be the nub of the story. Rangers seems to have persuaded HMRC its tax conduct wasn’t sufficiently culpable to attract a penalty. But HMRC doesn’t seem to accept it assessed Rangers to the wrong amount.”
Asked if he believed HMRC would be liable to pay compensation as a result of their original miscalculation, Maugham replied: “I’m not sure it is even theoretically possible to sue HMRC. But it would take an awful lot more than getting the number wrong.”

Anyone surprised Jolyon went to a catholic university, has been a noted Labour party affiliate in the past, and is busy organising legal blocks on Brexit?
Hmmm, I wonder who was tasked to head-hunt him to run to the mhedia this week and pour cold water on things?
Click to expand...

He was also one of the leading tax experts at the time of the FTT through to Supreme Court ruling who was taking the line that HMRC were wrong and that The Murray Group should win the case.
 
JeffreySpaulding said:
I'd be surprised if the current board could do anything about this given it relates to the old company.
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It might not be as simple as that since the match record is officially unbroken. Im no expert but there’s the accounting term “goodwill” to consider aswell.
 
Ibrox Bear said:
Considering it was our club, our football club, that bore the brunt of this debacle, surely we as a football club and the supporters of the club have a right to redress.
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Exactly.

What about the millions of ££'s us as fans spent throughout our lifetimes following the club to be fraudulently "done over" by HMRC and all the cronies behind the scenes.

I want blood and every last one of those culpable named, shamed, lives ruined the lot.

Failing that Executions in George Square will do :p .
 
jomacbe said:
respect524.wordpress.com

Handwringers Reunited

(Article first published in July 2017, now contains an update from 14 November 2019). In the autumn of 2010, Rangers embarked on what turned out to be a respectable Champions’ League campaign, taki…
respect524.wordpress.com
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Small - trivial even - point on his update. HMRC didn’t agree Leeds United CVA. They voted against and, in fact, mounted a subsequent legal challenge. Leeds United were sold out of Admin, in a very unusual way, and did not exit via a CVA. In fact the old holding company Leeds United AFC was only, finally, liquidated earlier this year - owing Creditors some £19m.
 
govwalker said:
Exactly.

What about the millions of ££'s us as fans spent throughout our lifetimes following the club to be fraudulently "done over" by HMRC and all the cronies behind the scenes.

I want blood and every last one of those culpable named, shamed, lives ruined the lot.

Failing that Executions in George Square will do :p .
Click to expand...
Great idea. Part of the entertainment for the 55th Title party.
 
mdingwall said:
www.telegraph.co.uk

Rangers consider taking legal action after HMRC says £50m penalty was ‘too high’

Rangers are considering taking legal action against HM Revenue and Customs after it appeared to admit that it was wrong to have claimed £50 million in penalties from the club’s former operating company, which went into liquidation in 2012 and triggered one of the biggest club crises in Scottish...
www.telegraph.co.uk www.telegraph.co.uk
Click to expand...
Find those responsible. Throw the book at them. Get compensation. Reverse potential liquidation of Oldco. Merge with Newco. Place all future Club business and assetts back to Oldco. Show Ashley the door and tell him to shut it on the way out. Claim all money owed by SFA and SPL. Threaten action against all SPL clubs and SFA for mistreatment of Club.
Demand ceptic’s titles be stripped in the interest of sporting integrity, given their unfair advantage over the past several years.
 
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