The Speed of Play paradox

Wouldn't say there's anything new in there but the guy definitely lays it out well and his explanations are clear.
Re the pressing trigger part I'm sure during Gerrard's time it was explained that our pressing triggers would be the ball going to certain players within opposition teams. All teams will probably do the same but I think that was the first time I'd heard it discussed.

Unfortunately the folk who would gain the most from this video probably won't be interested in it.
 
I have to admit, I might be one of those guys.

I was literally tearing my hair out from 60 minutes against Benfica at Ibrox.

I understand the point he is making when we are the away team.

At Ibrox, we had a game to win and I’m afraid we were NEVER going to outplay them with the slow, methodical chess-like ‘European’ style.

When a cup tie has to be won in the final third of the game - play to your strengths and play a game your opponents don’t like.

Horses for courses.
 
Number 4 said:
I have to admit, I might be one of those guys.

I was literally tearing my hair out from 60 minutes against Benfica at Ibrox.

I understand the point he is making when we are the away team.

At Ibrox, we had a game to win and I’m afraid we were NEVER going to outplay them with the slow, methodical chess-like ‘European’ style.

When a cup tie has to be won in the final third of the game - play to your strengths and play a game your opponents don’t like.

Horses for courses.
Click to expand...
What do you mean by this though? UItimately, when we're up against a team who have individual players who are worth more than entire squad we have to accept that we don't always get to play the game we want to play.
For all that though, we're in a golden period in terms of our European results and performances over the past few years and that has been achieved by playing a more European style, albeit with a bit of Scottish energy and physicality mixed in when the crowd are behind the team.
 
cloodie said:
What do you mean by this though? UItimately, when we're up against a team who have individual players who are worth more than entire squad we have to accept that we don't always get to play the game we want to play.
For all that though, we're in a golden period in terms of our European results and performances over the past few years and that has been achieved by playing a more European style, albeit with a bit of Scottish energy and physicality mixed in when the crowd are behind the team.
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The style of football that’s seen us dig out results in the league.

Fast, strong, direct and creating chaos wherever we can, with a packed stadium at our backs. The kind of blood and thunder that gets people on their feet and puts nervousness into the opposition.

There was zero momentum or purpose in the closing stages of Benfica at Ibrox.

At least go down fighting. They eventually strolled into the next round.
 
Number 4 said:
I have to admit, I might be one of those guys.

I was literally tearing my hair out from 60 minutes against Benfica at Ibrox.

I understand the point he is making when we are the away team.

At Ibrox, we had a game to win and I’m afraid we were NEVER going to outplay them with the slow, methodical chess-like ‘European’ style.

When a cup tie has to be won in the final third of the game - play to your strengths and play a game your opponents don’t like.

Horses for courses.
Click to expand...

The latter part of the video explains that scenario.
 
Number 4 said:
The style of football that’s seen us dig out results in the league.

Fast, strong, direct and creating chaos wherever we can, with a packed stadium at our backs. The kind of blood and thunder that gets people on their feet and puts nervousness into the opposition.

There was zero momentum or purpose in the closing stages of Benfica at Ibrox.

At least go down fighting. They eventually strolled into the next round.
Click to expand...
The teams we are playing are levels above the teams we play in the league. The style is also completely different and we have to adapt to that.

It seems you are advocating an old fashioned long ball game. That sort of thing gets you nowhere in Europe and hasn't for decades.
 
Bigbluebear said:
The latter part of the video explains that scenario.
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First of all, we weren’t playing Real Madrid. These videos can be easily selected to underline a point, but that’s confirmation bias personified.

It might be old fashioned, it might not be enthralling content for a YouTube producer, but hundreds of games per week are won by teams who can mix it when required.

Watching Rangers against Benfica was painful, and a live embodiment of bringing a knife to a pistol fight. Or, a better metaphor, we were playing with our last blackjack tenner in the casino and sticking at 14.

Teams, especially at Ibrox, do not like it when we take the game to them. Watching Goldson, Lundstram and Soutar soullessly rolling the ball between them - that wasn’t a battle, that was capitulation.
 
Number 4 said:
First of all, we weren’t playing Real Madrid. These videos can be easily selected to underline a point, but that’s confirmation bias personified.

It might be old fashioned, it might not be enthralling content for a YouTube producer, but hundreds of games per week are won by teams who can mix it when required.

Watching Rangers against Benfica was painful, and a live embodiment of bringing a knife to a pistol fight. Or, a better metaphor, we were playing with our last blackjack tenner in the casino and sticking at 14.

Teams, especially at Ibrox, do not like it when we take the game to them. Watching Goldson, Lundstram and Soutar soullessly rolling the ball between them - that wasn’t a battle, that was capitulation.
Click to expand...
I’ve won many a hand sticking at 14, thinking you should always be asking for a card at 14 would be reckless :)
 
Number 4 said:
First of all, we weren’t playing Real Madrid. These videos can be easily selected to underline a point, but that’s confirmation bias personified.

It might be old fashioned, it might not be enthralling content for a YouTube producer, but hundreds of games per week are won by teams who can mix it when required.

Watching Rangers against Benfica was painful, and a live embodiment of bringing a knife to a pistol fight. Or, a better metaphor, we were playing with our last blackjack tenner in the casino and sticking at 14.

Teams, especially at Ibrox, do not like it when we take the game to them. Watching Goldson, Lundstram and Soutar soullessly rolling the ball between them - that wasn’t a battle, that was capitulation.
Click to expand...

Not many teams of Benficas calibre come to Ibrox and sit back. They dealt with everything we had easily and our players were out on their feet
 
Number 4 said:
First of all, we weren’t playing Real Madrid. These videos can be easily selected to underline a point, but that’s confirmation bias personified.

It might be old fashioned, it might not be enthralling content for a YouTube producer, but hundreds of games per week are won by teams who can mix it when required.

Watching Rangers against Benfica was painful, and a live embodiment of bringing a knife to a pistol fight. Or, a better metaphor, we were playing with our last blackjack tenner in the casino and sticking at 14.

Teams, especially at Ibrox, do not like it when we take the game to them. Watching Goldson, Lundstram and Soutar soullessly rolling the ball between them - that wasn’t a battle, that was capitulation.
Click to expand...

We tried to mix it up at various points in the game. Benfica defended really well, and in a style they don't often use.

Almost every time we went long they dealt with it quite easily. Our best chances on the night came on the break, but they wouldn't be drawn out too often which was unlike how they'd normally play.
 
cloodie said:
Wouldn't say there's anything new in there but the guy definitely lays it out well and his explanations are clear.
Re the pressing trigger part I'm sure during Gerrard's time it was explained that our pressing triggers would be the ball going to certain players within opposition teams. All teams will probably do the same but I think that was the first time I'd heard it discussed.

Unfortunately the folk who would gain the most from this video probably won't be interested in it.
Click to expand...

You've hit the nail on the head here I think
 
cloodie said:
Wouldn't say there's anything new in there but the guy definitely lays it out well and his explanations are clear.
Re the pressing trigger part I'm sure during Gerrard's time it was explained that our pressing triggers would be the ball going to certain players within opposition teams. All teams will probably do the same but I think that was the first time I'd heard it discussed.

Unfortunately the folk who would gain the most from this video probably won't be interested in it.
Click to expand...

I'm sure during a lot of the 55 season highlights when there's no crowd you can her Tav calling out to start the press.
 
Number 4 said:
I have to admit, I might be one of those guys.

I was literally tearing my hair out from 60 minutes against Benfica at Ibrox.

I understand the point he is making when we are the away team.

At Ibrox, we had a game to win and I’m afraid we were NEVER going to outplay them with the slow, methodical chess-like ‘European’ style.

When a cup tie has to be won in the final third of the game - play to your strengths and play a game your opponents don’t like.

Horses for courses.
Click to expand...

Have you considered that, maybe, you're wrong and the professional, qualified coaches and managers are right, or at the very least know stuff you don't?
 
cloodie said:
Aye you could hear it clearly. I was one of the lucky few who managed to attend the St Mirren game when they only allowed something like 500 in and you could hear everything that day from the players.
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Am I right in saying Tav sometimes calls out to start the press even if the ball/action is in the other corner/end of the pitch? Is it always the Captain?
 
JC85 said:
Really needs to be shown to the guy a couple of seats along from me at Ibrox. Seems to think it's a game of 5s where every single player needs to be "marking" somebody at all times.
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I don't think anything, ever, will change these guys minds. I still have plenty of the "get it in the mixer" types near me
 
There’s a difference between one guy rushing in to close down the guy with the ball, and the whole the front three and midfield squeezing up and closing down as a unit. Very few teams if any in Scotland can cope with the whole line high press. It’s probably only the better English/ European teams who can play around it.
 
gers1978 said:
Am I right in saying Tav sometimes calls out to start the press even if the ball/action is in the other corner/end of the pitch? Is it always the Captain?
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Tav and Goldson were almost always directing the press no matter where the ball was. A lot of shouts of 'Go, go, go' directing the front players to push on.
 
gers1978 said:
Am I right in saying Tav sometimes calls out to start the press even if the ball/action is in the other corner/end of the pitch? Is it always the Captain?
Click to expand...
There was a video from training earlier in the season where Raskin was mic'd up and he was really vocal in that, controlling our press etc. So there are probably a few of them who make the call depending on how the game is playing out.
 
Number 4 said:
The style of football that’s seen us dig out results in the league.

Fast, strong, direct and creating chaos wherever we can, with a packed stadium at our backs. The kind of blood and thunder that gets people on their feet and puts nervousness into the opposition.

There was zero momentum or purpose in the closing stages of Benfica at Ibrox.

At least go down fighting. They eventually strolled into the next round.
Click to expand...

It's almost as if Benfica aren't the same as St Johnstone or Ross County.
 
Number 4 said:
Benfica were beatable, it was in our hands.
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I think the issue here is that you haven't given an explanation of how we'd do that tactically. It seems to be just a bit of blood and thunder and go direct which I'm taking to mean just long balls. If you could expand a bit it might be clearer.

Even an example of a succesful European team who are playing such a style would help.
 
cloodie said:
I think the issue here is that you haven't given an explanation of how we'd do that tactially. It seems to be just a bit of blood and thunder and go direct which I'm taking to mean just long balls. If you could expand a bit it might be clearer.
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"Let's just get intae them" or "in about these cünts" and "they don't like it up them" does not work as a tactic or strategy against any even half-decent European team, never mind the likes of Benfica, and hasn't for years.
 
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gers1978 said:
"Let's just get intae them" or "in about these cünts" and "they don't like it up them" does not work a tactic or strategy against any even half-decent European team, never mind the likes of Benfica.
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The thing is, I'm as likely to shout 'get into these cunts' as anyone at the fitba but that's my emotions getting the better of me and it's the reason I'm sitting in the Govan stand rather than the dugout.
 
cloodie said:
The thing is, I'm as likely to shout 'get into these cunts' as anyone at the fitba but that's my emotions getting the better of me and it's the reason I'm sitting in the Govan stand rather than the dugout.
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Agreed, I'm the same. Difference is you and I seem to recognise this fact, many don't.
 
cloodie said:
The thing is, I'm as likely to shout 'get into these cunts' as anyone at the fitba but that's my emotions getting the better of me and it's the reason I'm sitting in the Govan stand rather than the dugout.
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There's times it probably has it's uses as a "tactic" for periods of a game (local derbies, etc) but not against technically better, composed and modern, well coached sides.
 
strider said:
We tried to mix it up at various points in the game. Benfica defended really well, and in a style they don't often use.

Almost every time we went long they dealt with it quite easily. Our best chances on the night came on the break, but they wouldn't be drawn out too often which was unlike how they'd normally play.
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Said at the time Benfica were very disciplined at Ibrox, a few players tried to drag CHs for example out and they stayed in their formation.

As for the op, I agree with what he is saying and enjoy learning more, however, he has Arsenal and Liverpool as his clips and also mentions Busquets, who was probably the best player in that position.

In Scotland the players we play against do make mistakes under pressure, all the time, so we do need to *run at them* more than we would if when playing Benfica, though I think Clement has us more aware that if a player breaks ranks to do that, the rest are alert.
 
gers1978 said:
"Let's just get intae them" or "in about these cünts" and "they don't like it up them" does not work as a tactic or strategy against any even half-decent European team, never mind the likes of Benfica, and hasn't for years.
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That "style" of football hasn't been successful since about 1985.

It's why it took nearly a decade for English clubs to start to compete again after the Euro ban, it's why we were mostly pish in Europe in the 90s, 1 lightning in a bottle year aside and it's why our teams regularly get skudded by teams from Slovakia and Romania.

It's dark ages stuff. I wonder if we'll ever embrace modern football in this country. And by modern, I mean the type of football the rest of the world has been playing for more than 30 years.
 
insanicdrunk said:
Said at the time Benfica were very disciplined at Ibrox, a few players tried to drag CHs for example out and they stayed in their formation.

As for the op, I agree with what he is saying and enjoy learning more, however, he has Arsenal and Liverpool as his clips and also mentions Busquets, who was probably the best player in that position.

In Scotland the players we play against do make mistakes under pressure, all the time, so we do need to *run at them* more than we would if when playing Benfica, though I think Clement has us more aware that if a player breaks ranks to do that, the rest are alert.
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I mean they had Otamendi at CB who is very very experienced at the highest level with multiple medals from every country he has played in and won the World Cup and Copa America. No surprise they were able to be so disciplined with somebody like him the defensive leader.

Not like we were up against spfl jobbers.
 
We're adapting these tactics in Europe and that's why we've been successful recently but domestically you've got to adapt to what your up against. Teams are trying to kick us off the park and it's a different ball game.
We've handled it pretty well these past few seasons IMHO.
The European bit I mean;)
 
Chocolateleftfoot said:
That "style" of football hasn't been successful since about 1985.

It's why it took nearly a decade for English clubs to start to compete again after the Euro ban, it's why we were mostly pish in Europe in the 90s, 1 lightning in a bottle year aside and it's why our teams regularly get skudded by teams from Slovakia and Romania.

It's dark ages stuff. I wonder if we'll ever embrace modern football in this country. And by modern, I mean the type of football the rest of the world has been playing for more than 30 years.
Click to expand...

I'm sure we will eventually, by which time the rest of the world will have moved on to something new and better, which we'll then catch up with 20 years later, by which time the rest... etc etc etc
 
Bigbluebear said:
I mean they had Otamendi at CB who is very very experienced at the highest level with multiple medals from every country he has played in and won the World Cup and Copa America. No surprise they were able to be so disciplined with somebody like him the defensive leader.

Not like we were up against spfl jobbers.
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And when they have the likes of Di Maria with the levels he's played at and the things he's won, the idea that Ibrox being right up for it would actually bother them all that much was never gonna happen. Crowd and players being right up for it is brilliant, and helpful/positive, but it's not enough on it's own, not these days at the high levels.
 
gers1978 said:
A lot of the "fückin go to him" or "put a challenge in" brigade in the match threads could do with watching this:

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Although I get what you are saying about ridiculous shouts from the crowd but as per the video we can hardly compare the defence of half the SPL to the likes of Liverpool and Man City etc who are composed enough on the ball to expose a poor press, if we presses half the league then they are poor enough that they would make mistakes and give up possession.

The point of the video was to say that heedless chicken presses against the best players in the world are counterproductive, we are not playing against the best in the world.
 
I remember that being one of the first things I noticed from watching football on TV vs playing 11s - it looks like they've all got so much time and whenever I played the second the ball came to me you'd have someone charging at you and putting you under pressure. It's probably why the very talented stand out so much for finding space and being able to make it/seek it consistently. I remember watching McGinn at youth level, and he was constantly a step or two ahead of the ones chasing him down. I imagine it's similar for most professional footballers, regardless of position.
 
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