Where has our defensive structure gone?

Todd The Prod

Todd The Prod

Well-Known Member
As per the title really.

I recall when Clement first came in, we were riddled with injuries then too, however, he had the group drilled to a point where I’m sure we were going through games where teams were not even getting a shot on our goal, never mind, scoring 1/2/3 goals against us.

What’s happened?

It can’t be injuries as we had them back then.

It can’t be the manager as he implemented those tactics and structure, which was so successful, he wouldn’t then abandon it.
 
Now and forever said:
We have been wide open for weeks now
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We have our full backs who struggle against any half decent wide player with pace and they are hopeless at stopping crosses going into the box we've seen it for years now.

Centre backs who hate a physical presence and get caught with balls in behind at will also our two holding midfielders don't cover space quick enough and allow runners to go at the backline unchallenged with Lundstram being a prime suspect at that most weeks.

If it wasn't for Butland we would probably be in a worse off state.
 
Coplandbear said:
We have our full backs who struggle against any half decent wide player with pace and they are hopeless at stopping crosses going into the box we've seen it for years now.

Centre backs who hate a physical presence and get caught with balls in behind at will also our two holding midfielders don't cover space quick enough and allow runners to go at the backline unchallenged with Lundstram being a prime suspect at that most weeks.

If it wasn't for Butland we would probably be in a worse off state.
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We have conceded 5 goals in two games v Dundee at home and hearts away that doesn’t implicate JL . This stupid scapegoating of players over evidence does no one any good .
 
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Proper coaching would at least tell CBs where to position themselves at corners, free kicks and when long balls are hit over our midfield. As said above the lack of pace on our right plus anytime Borna plays caauses problems.
If we spend money it has to be in defence plus one top midfield player who can see what is happening and give us some control there.
 
We don’t have a ball winner anywhere in the team. When our attacks break down we struggle to get the ball back. Flicks and tricks are all very well but if you give the ball away you’re likely to be facing in the wrong direction. Once you have attackers running at you without midfielders tracking back, you’ve got problems especially if your FBs can’t defend.
 
Our shape and discipline within that shape has gone to shit since the turn of the year in particular.

Sorry, but Clement has to at least take some responsibility for that. In some parts of games we are all over the place and teams are strolling right through us.

The honeymoon period for Clement is well and truly over. It is only right that he starts coming under more and more scrutiny. What we see week in week out has to improve significantly.
 
Over38 league games we conceded two more goals than Celtic who had conceded the least
The next best team conceded 10 more than us
To say the defence has been a shambles all season is a clear example of recency bias
For most of the season it was pretty robust
Having said that there have been very worrying signs recently with similar types of goals being conceded particularly as these have not been the result of intricate sophisticated play from our opponents
Long balls over the top the centre backs haven't dealt with, crosses - particularly from the right - with the opposite full back unaware of players lurking behind them and failing to track or pick up players waiting on the 18 yard line for a pot shot are the very basics of defending which we have been failing at. Perhaps too many players just don't give a shit any more to do the hard yards but if we can get some new guys in it should be possible to drill the basics in and cure the issuue
 
There has been no structure & Phil has to take responsibility for that. Individual errors can come down to the players, aye but just saying "Aww the players are sh*te" to everything is just setting us up for a fall next season
 
Not taking our chances puts a lot more pressure on the defence.

That Ross County game, for as bad as we were, should have out of sight by half time and then we see it out. Instead we miss a couple sitters and get caught out early second half and don't recover.

There's also no belief that if the defence can keep a clean sheet we will win a game which creates issues.

You then get tav and whoever is left back moving further up the pitch to help us score and leaves us thin at the back.

Throw in we are just pretty poor defensively it just turns into a disaster.

Our no10 is usually poor leaving us exposed in the middle of the pitch. If its Cantwell he shows nice moments occasionally but not enough in this squad and Lawrence is just so off the boil right now he's a hindrance more often than not.

Lundstram is not a defensive mid even if we continue to play him there plus he's now outwith his 3 month purple patch that gets him through games. So that in itself causes us huge issues defensively. Raskin doesn't look like the answer either but for me he at least has a higher tempo and better passing range.

I'm genuinely shocked that people still expect this group of players to turn into this great league winning side. Its been obvious even as far back as Gerrard that most of the players aren't good enough for a proper title fight. Add in terrible transfers windows and a horrendous injury list it just compounds the issue.
 
bucks72 said:
Because Goldson is missing. Is it not obvious to everyone he has been covering the RB area failings for years.
Now he is out of the team, the root cause of the problem has been glaringly obvious I'm afraid.
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He was also helped by having a RCM who would cover (Jack) as well.

Having coverage for a high-sitting WB isn't a slight on Tav either. Barca did the same with Alves, not because he was a liability, but because they knew giving him that role added more to the team going forward. We've reverted back to the pre-Gerrard idea of getting Tav forward with no coverage & especially in his current form, we are hanging him out to dry.
 
trueblue ped said:
Best centre backs are goldson and balogun
Souttar and davies are poor positionally and dont win a ball in the air
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Correct, plus we gave no decent defensive midfielder jn front them, Lundstram was doing a job when PC took over before reverting to type, Raskin has been either injured or no better, Diamonde after a promising start looks lost, it's a mess that gas resulted in us conceding 15 goals in the last 8 games.
 
It’s very reminiscent of after Gio took charge.

Initial success and buzz around ‘keeping the zero’ with opposition barely getting a sniff. Then the winter break and a gradual disintegration of everything that was going so well.

At the moment, Clement is on the same trajectory and has Saturday and the summer to arrest it.
 
SecondBestIsNothing said:
He was also helped by having a RCM who would cover (Jack) as well.

Having coverage for a high-sitting WB isn't a slight on Tav either. Barca did the same with Alves, not because he was a liability, but because they knew giving him that role added more to the team going forward. We've reverted back to the pre-Gerrard idea of getting Tav forward with no coverage & especially in his current form, we are hanging him out to dry.
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Well knowing this as team captain, why is he galloping forward and jogging back? it is absolute suicide
 
bucks72 said:
I highly doubt that.
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Why do you 'highly doubt' that? He hooked Cantwell after half an hour for not following instructions, he's hardly going to let a guy do that week-in, week-out.

He's also changed him to play an inverted role at times & Tav picks up they positions, again proof he's following the tactical instructions. He's been done more often when in position in recent weeks than being out of position, again signalling that he may need more protection.
 
Cooper's left peg said:
Our shape and discipline within that shape has gone to shit since the turn of the year in particular.

Sorry, but Clement has to at least take some responsibility for that. In some parts of games we are all over the place and teams are strolling right through us.

The honeymoon period for Clement is well and truly over. It is only right that he starts coming under more and more scrutiny. What we see week in week out has to improve significantly.
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It's also only right he gets the benefit of the doubt while he sets about reshaping the squad and addressing the behind the scenes issues that he's pointed out in recent weeks.

I've held that stance since the very start of this tenure that he gets this season to assess every nuance of the job on and off the pitch. We all know the football is a mess so therefore can't fix it overnight. Players have reverted to type after the initial new manager bounce so hopefully PC has seen thru enough of them to weed them out in favour of players that are his.

Next season is a big one for him though because rightly or wrinkly, pressure won't be too far round the corner if the season doesn't start well.
 
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I don't believe the lack of structure in the defence & midfield is solely down to the players. I see some of the same problems but with different personnel in the past 2 games. That comes from instruction, tactics, coaching & set up. Even shit players can be coached to be good off the ball.

I guess we'll know for sure at the start of next season, but I do hope Clement gets better coaches in alongside him.
 
DBallZ said:
It’s very reminiscent of after Gio took charge.

Initial success and buzz around ‘keeping the zero’ with opposition barely getting a sniff. Then the winter break and a gradual disintegration of everything that was going so well.

At the moment, Clement is on the same trajectory and has Saturday and the summer to arrest it.
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When Clement came in we had 11 clean sheets out our first 18 domestic games. We’ve had only 6 out the last 18. More worryingly it’s 3 clean sheets in our last 15 matches across all competitions. We’ve conceded the first goal in 8 of they matches.

We don’t have a midfield to protect our back four, We play with 1 DM, I don’t know what Diomande’s role is but he is forever getting caught wrong side, and whether it’s Cantwell or Lawrence they rarely contribute helping the defence out from open play.

We generally play with Lundstram dropping in between the Centre backs to let one of them drive out of defence but we don’t have anyone covering Tav when he decides to go play outside right or outside left, only Jack has the positional sense and awareness to cover for him.
 
PeteGibbons said:
Full backs that don't defend, centre backs who don't really like anyone running at them or being aggressive and a midfield where at least 2 of them usually can't be bothered or just can't track back.

None of that is going to work regardless of what structure they are in.
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Spot on
 
At that time our transitional play was fast. Defended as a team, overturned play in midfield and attacked teams with pace. Injuries to key players and lack of season long fitness put a stop to that.
 
Angrybluebear said:
When Clement came in we had 11 clean sheets out our first 18 domestic games. We’ve had only 6 out the last 18. More worryingly it’s 3 clean sheets in our last 15 matches across all competitions. We’ve conceded the first goal in 8 of they matches.

We don’t have a midfield to protect our back four, We play with 1 DM, I don’t know what Diomande’s role is but he is forever getting caught wrong side, and whether it’s Cantwell or Lawrence they rarely contribute helping the defence out from open play.

We generally play with Lundstram dropping in between the Centre backs to let one of them drive out of defence but we don’t have anyone covering Tav when he decides to go play outside right or outside left, only Jack has the positional sense and awareness to cover for him.
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Wow it's worse than I thought!

Conceding the first goal in games has been a problem since as far back as the season after 55. We haven't learned a single thing about game management and we're now on the fourth manager in that time.
 
Good defensive midfielder,good lock picking midfielder who knows what it's about,4 natural defenders who know their job will suffice, whether we get them is another thing
 
Angrybluebear said:
When Clement came in we had 11 clean sheets out our first 18 domestic games. We’ve had only 6 out the last 18. More worryingly it’s 3 clean sheets in our last 15 matches across all competitions. We’ve conceded the first goal in 8 of they matches.

We don’t have a midfield to protect our back four, We play with 1 DM, I don’t know what Diomande’s role is but he is forever getting caught wrong side, and whether it’s Cantwell or Lawrence they rarely contribute helping the defence out from open play.

We generally play with Lundstram dropping in between the Centre backs to let one of them drive out of defence but we don’t have anyone covering Tav when he decides to go play outside right or outside left, only Jack has the positional sense and awareness to cover for him.
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If jack is fit to play on Saturday I would play him but as he didn’t feature last weekend I doubt he will be fit
 
The benfica game at Ibrox was the game i noticed pur defensive stricture went awol and it never came back.
 
Topps said:
The benfica game at Ibrox was the game i noticed pur defensive stricture went awol and it never came back.
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Agree.

The season started to go off-the-rails with the loss to Motherwell prior to the first leg in Lisbon. Indeed, we pulled out a victory at Rugby Park the week prior but we looked poor.

At that time it started to look as though Clement had got as much out of the players as he could.
 
Consecutive managers changing the back four week after week didn’t help.
It was obvious to everyone on the planet except Beale that we needed to strengthen at the back.
Carrying on with the dross has cost us big time.
Not one of the back four commands their own part of the pitch.
Early on n the season every team we played knew it they got to us they could get a result.
Never mind the injuries we still wouldn’t know our best back four and that’s shocking management
 
A big part of our supposedly great defensive record was because we were controlling the middle of the park and defending from the front.

Anytime teams turned us during that time though we still seemed to look a bit of a bombscare, but luckily we had big Jack to bail us out.

As our pressing has dropped off though our ability to control games has too hence why teams have found it easier to build attacks against us and the defence has been exposed for the fragile back line it always really was.

The issue for me is why Clement has persisted with the same formation when we’re no longer able to control games to the same degree we were before.

I have a theory - and I’ll stress that’s all it is - that once Lundstram realised he wasn’t going to get the deal he wanted out of the club he eased up and our midfield has been far poorer since.

Again though, it’s up to the manager to change things - drop this player or that (easier said than done admittedly when nine or ten players are missing through injury) and / or alter your tactics.

The idea that this is solely down to players checking out and not having the bottle feels like a bit of a comfort blanket - I think there are other more uncomfortable factors most of us probably don’t really want to face up to.
 
We returned from the winter break and won ten on the bounce, we then hit March and Motherwell, a game we dominated and should have won.
Double header against Benfica and it all started to go to shit, coincidentally when Clement had more time on the training ground with the team.
 
basiltherat said:
Over38 league games we conceded two more goals than Celtic who had conceded the least
The next best team conceded 10 more than us
To say the defence has been a shambles all season is a clear example of recency bias
For most of the season it was pretty robust
Having said that there have been very worrying signs recently with similar types of goals being conceded particularly as these have not been the result of intricate sophisticated play from our opponents
Long balls over the top the centre backs haven't dealt with, crosses - particularly from the right - with the opposite full back unaware of players lurking behind them and failing to track or pick up players waiting on the 18 yard line for a pot shot are the very basics of defending which we have been failing at. Perhaps too many players just don't give a shit any more to do the hard yards but if we can get some new guys in it should be possible to drill the basics in and cure the issuue
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Something has definitely changed in the past couple of months, although I have no idea what.

In Clement's first 19 league games we conceded 8 goals with 12 clean sheets.

In the most recent 11 we've conceded 19 with 1 clean sheet.

Doesn't seem to correlate to a change in system or personnel.

Although Goldson seemed to be copping most of the blame at the start of the run, it hasn't improved since he got injured. Maybe some folk owe him an apology.
 
HandsomeHead said:
A big part of our supposedly great defensive record was because we were controlling the middle of the park and defending from the front.

Anytime teams turned us during that time though we still seemed to look a bit of a bombscare, but luckily we had big Jack to bail us out.

As our pressing has dropped off though our ability to control games has too hence why teams have found it easier to build attacks against us and the defence has been exposed for the fragile back line it always really was.

The issue for me is why Clement has persisted with the same formation when we’re no longer able to control games to the same degree we were before.

I have a theory - and I’ll stress that’s all it is - that once Lundstram realised he wasn’t going to get the deal he wanted out of the club he eased up and our midfield has been far poorer since.

Again though, it’s up to the manager to change things - drop this player or that (easier said than done admittedly when nine or ten players are missing through injury) and / or alter your tactics.

The idea that this is solely down to players checking out and not having the bottle feels like a bit of a comfort blanket - I think there are other more uncomfortable factors most of us probably don’t really want to face up to.
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It sounds as good as any reason. I don't think he'd ease up when there were medals up for grabs but maybe just lost a little focus or been trying too hard - certainly in his last game he got the fire in belly/ ice in head balance way out of kelter.

Our midfield balance certainly hasn't looked right during the last few months.

Could also apply to a couple of others who were maybe distracted by contract talks or whom Clement has had a quiet word with about their future.
 
Chris the Bandito said:
Something has definitely changed in the past couple of months, although I have no idea what.

In Clement's first 19 league games we conceded 8 goals with 12 clean sheets.

In the most recent 11 we've conceded 19 with 1 clean sheet.

Doesn't seem to correlate to a change in system or personnel.

Although Goldson seemed to be copping most of the blame at the start of the run, it hasn't improved since he got injured. Maybe some folk owe him an apology.
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It’s deteriorated since he’s been out, J don’t care what anyone says, we have poor defenders, but Goldson is the best of a bad bunch.
 
Chris the Bandito said:
It sounds as good as any reason. I don't think he'd ease up when there were medals up for grabs but maybe just lost a little focus or been trying too hard - certainly in his last game he got the fire in belly/ ice in head balance way out of kelter.

Our midfield balance certainly hasn't looked right during the last few months.

Could also apply to a couple of others who were maybe distracted by contract talks or whom Clement has had a quiet word with about their future.
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As I say, it’s just something I wondered and might explain why his form seemed to nosedive - player wants to stay, but also wants a pay hike citing another offer elsewhere, club say niet, player takes a bit of a hump?
It’s been known to happen.

Of course it could also be that Lundstram just isn’t good enough to maintain his form throughout a season?

Clement had options in the middle, Sterling being the most obvious alternative, but he’s stubbornly persisted with the same players and same formation for the most part even when it clearly wasn’t working.

Injuries don’t completely explain that away, IMO.
 
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