Why can't the Old Firm learn from the Ajax model?

[mdingwall]

Firstly our fans aren't patient enough - they like the idea of rearing our own but the reality is too many youngsters get crucified by Scottish crowds.

Secondly, there is a real culture at Ajax of wanting young players to come through the system and play "The Ajax Way."

Thirdly, the Ajax system is not as fairy tale as it first appears - many of there youth products are actually bought in at vast expense - Zlatan cost them either 4 or 6 million from memory.

 

[Main Stand]

I agree.

@ronadamus_prime

 

[WesleyanBear1738]

I would agree

 

[Sir Know it All]

I think it often gets overlooked that the likes of Dortmund and Ajax who have strong youth/pathways get the benefit of their youth teams playing other strong youth teams.

 

[KazKoz]

I posted something similar the other night watching the Ajax match.. their no. 7 was a standout.. when I checked they had spent €12 million after 8 appearances for Sao Paolo..

 

[Loyal72]

I'd agree.

Everyone screams that because of the financial discrepancies in Scotland that we need to follow the Ajax model for success.

But that same hand is also calling for immediate success, season on season.

You can't have both, Ajax have barron years at times where they don't win anything, their support can appreciate those times, because another golden generation is about to come through, like Ajax in their current cycle.

It's not doable here, yes you have years where Rangers will win most, or Celtic will win most but those small gaps in between aren't enough for a culture shift.

We want success, we want it now.
Young players with talent will rear their heads occasionally, I'm okay with it.

 

[KGR98]

We need to the Rangers model rather than the Ajax Model we don't need 4/5 new youth players breaking through every season just 1/2 who we can sell on for profit

 

[Paperskin]

Firstly our fans aren't patient enough - they like the idea of rearing our own but the reality is too many youngsters get crucified by Scottish crowds.

Secondly, there is a real culture at Ajax of wanting young players to come through the system and play "The Ajax Way."

Thirdly, the Ajax system is not as fairy tale as it first appears - many of there youth products are actually bought in at vast expense - Zlatan cost them either 4 or 6 million from memory.

And we instantly slap price tags on them and immediately plan to sell them to the highest bidder

 

[The Moon on Mars is Blue]

The other thing to realise that there might be the odd season where bringing tho' a group of youngsters which will improve us in the long term my result in the league being lost the season they come through as they gain experience. We would have to be able to deal with that .

 

[Abacab]

I wonder how much an impact if any, the cultural differences in terms of drink/drugs/pubs/clubs from an early age has on development.

 

[Wazza]

I think it often gets overlooked that the likes of Dortmund and Ajax who have strong youth/pathways get the benefit of their youth teams playing other strong youth teams.

They both play in the main leagues mind don't they, Ajax Jong seem to always be in second tier and BVB II third or fourth. I get where you are coming from though.

 

[Mr Han]

If Hearts pulled their shit together they could get away with that as they don't expect to win anything most the time which is what the Ajax model relies on. A level head and an understanding that its a work in progress. Plus the model is a bit of a myth. People often confuse the Ajax model for their Football manager saves where they pick up some weirdo for 250k and by next season he's worth 50m. Ajax spend a fortune on young talent, money we don't have.

 

[bkerr72]

I think it often gets overlooked that the likes of Dortmund and Ajax who have strong youth/pathways get the benefit of their youth teams playing other strong youth teams.

Ajax also have a team in the 2nd division as well as the likes of Utrecht, AZ, PSV that gives the younger players exposure to men's football and gets them used to playing at a decent level. Whilst the Lowland League is a start for our players it would be better for them if we could get the teams into the league setup but clubs in Scotland aren't interested in it.

Saw a former poster on here say on twitter the other day that it's been six decades of work to have the production line that Ajax do. Yeah they bring in guys like Neres, Antony and Daramy recently for good money but they're given a platform to develop whilst also bringing through some of their own talent. I think it's a big reason why we've brought Vos to the club from Ajax as well as Gio to start using talent from our own academy.

 

[The Union Flag]

I’m recent years we’ve brought the following into the first team all be it for a short period.

Gilmour, Patterson, Kelly, Middleton and Kennedy

Not bad considering the previous 10 years of neglect and chaos. Look at the setup now. It’s up there with the best in Europe and we’ll reap the benefits in the next decade. Questions should certainly be asked of that lot from across the city. They had a free hit for 8 years and did they really bring anyone through the system? Instead they spent money on a whole host of duds until Rodger’s arrived

 

[Theportyunionjack]

Thirdly, the Ajax system is not as fairy tale as it first appears - many of there youth products are actually bought in at vast expense - Zlatan cost them either 4 or 6 million from memory.

Come on suck, you cant expect professional football journalists to do basic research and analysis like that

 

[Leo_Ger]

I think it often gets overlooked that the likes of Dortmund and Ajax who have strong youth/pathways get the benefit of their youth teams playing other strong youth teams.

Both of their B/2nd teams feature in their national football pyramid. Something we are trying to address tbf.

We normally come to the fore from U16-18 which is the age group they'll be trying to get game time in the B team.

Before that age Club Academy Scotland is pretty competitive. We normally are one of the stronger teams but don't always have the strongest teams each age group.

We also normally play cross border games pretty regularly against English sides so they do encounter other strong youth teams.

 

[TerrySilverLoyal]

No ball games signs

 

[Superswally173]

Is this not what the rangers b is trying to address? Giving them a competitive edge and actual game time
Here's hoping in a couple of years we see results

 

[cambridgeblue]

Firstly our fans aren't patient enough - they like the idea of rearing our own but the reality is too many youngsters get crucified by Scottish crowds.

Secondly, there is a real culture at Ajax of wanting young players to come through the system and play "The Ajax Way."

Thirdly, the Ajax system is not as fairy tale as it first appears - many of there youth products are actually bought in at vast expense - Zlatan cost them either 4 or 6 million from memory.

Also our youth teams were blown up during the spiv years - the pipeline takes a decade to refill.

 

[BarcaBlue72]

One of the things I find most interesting about the Ajax model is how often good players leave then actually struggle in new teams. Same can happen with young barca players and it’s because they’ve been used to a certain system all throughout their development.

 

[Main Stand]

Is this not what the rangers b is trying to address? Giving them a competitive edge and actual game time
Here's hoping in a couple of years we see results

Yeah, but unfortunately the lowland league isn’t a good enough level.

It’s fine this year, gets some of the lads used to playing against men and the occasional loss will be a learning curve. Right now, it’s probably better for preparing the players for a loan spell to a higher placed team in the pyramid.

Need to be trying to get into league two though, ther

 

[Lovenkrands Dug]

I don't think you can discredit them by saying 'they buy players as well so it's not fairytale'. If they are still achieving titles and bringing through 3/4 players a year not matter how many they buy, it's still fairytale to most.

Just off the top of my head Doekhi, Dani De Wit, Zerrouki, Malen, St Jago, Botman, Bergwijn, Rosario and Bazoer were all part of their academy and all were/are star players at other Dutch clubs and that's just in the last few years.

 

[Mr Wilton]

They have a mature system that’s been going on for about 30 or 40 years. We’ve been fumbling around in the dark for most of that time, we love it when a Patterson comes through but we don’t allow the system the time then you have to ask about the level of quality too.

 

[The Businessman]

No ball games signs

Jesus.

Mind that.

 

[Donsky]

People think Ajax or even the Dutch system and think it all comes from the clubs, when it is actually the whole society. We are starting to see more and more football pitches returning to schools, with soccer schools becoming more frequent, as a result we are seeing a better standard of young player. The introduction of B-teams will further enhance their development in the coming years.

I’m less concerned about being able to produce good young players over the next decade than I have been in the previous. I just wish we could sort out the governance and marketing of our game, so we get a chance to keep those young players.

 

[TerrySilverLoyal]

Jesus.

Mind that.

Aye they still exist.

One across the road from me and always get people out complaining if a balls kicked

 

[IbroxForever]

It's nothing to do with fans. We would love lots of young talented players coming and in the first team.

The main issue in this country is our diet and lifestyle. We will never match foreign country's. Also add in the lack of facilities for young players.

 

[Jorg Albertz]

Lack of youth talent coming through
Demands from the fans

 

[Kowloon72]

We could do more. A lot more tbh. In terms of developing young players. Yes, Ajax have periods of famine in terms of winning the title, but their league is stronger. Three teams won it in the 6 seasons between Ajax's 03/04 and 10/11 triumphs. That wouldn't happen in Scotland, it would take less to wrestle it back.

Not saying we should follow any other clubs model, but there is clearly talent in Scotland and producing talent and selling them on could be huge for us. Tierney, McGinn, Gilmour and Patterson either are or potentially are £20m players and we developed two of them at Ibrox.

 

[The Businessman]

Aye they still exist.

One across the road from me and always get people out complaining if a balls kicked

Actively ordering our children not to exercise or enjoy themselves.

I'm nearly 40, so I'm talking over 30 years ago it was the big red and white posts we used to see slap bang in the middle of large bits of grass. Crazy.

I could kind of understand a no ball games sign up to stop a group of us not leathering a ball against some poor sods gable all day (now that I'm that guy in the house lol) but the fields man. C'mon.

 

[TQ3]

Whilst I have always admired the Dutch/Ajax model, the problem is not the system, or the old firm, the problem is thugs like Motherwell/Hibs/Aberdoom get free reign to kick lumps out of us without punishment. It is also the mentality to try to ruin a game of football by constant fouls and breaking up the rhythm, rather than trying to match the technical ability of the opposition.
Until we get past the “get in tae ‘em.” attitude as a nation, then we may be able to expand our style of football across the board.

 

[fresh_whipped]

Other than man United with the class of 92, is there any big British club that has brought through a host of youth players at the same time in the past 30 years? It's just not in the culture of the the big clubs here, it's win now or be sacked.

 

[johnto]

I wonder how much an impact if any, the cultural differences in terms of drink/drugs/pubs/clubs from an early age has on development.

I think Amsterdam has a few of those pitfalls… I’ve heard

 

[Leo_Ger]

Other than man United with the class of 92, is there any big British club that has brought through a host of youth players at the same time in the past 30 years? It's just not in the culture of the the big clubs here, it's win now or be sacked.

The nature of the EPL in the last 20 years means there isn't really an onus on having to develop your own talent in high numbers.

We're not in the same in environment as EPL teams. It's unlikely we'll develop a host of youth players consistently as Ajax but we will need to produce more than we do with some regularity to provide funds.

 

[giogaddi]

Whilst I completely agree, they are just excuses. Culture can be changed. The Ibrox crowd can carry us to victory but it can also be a hindrance. We can't let these wee scarlet faced psychos hold us back like that. The club has to find a way to get through to them. The best way for me might just be to drown them out and get the Copland Front as a standing section.

 

[Struths Canary]

1. We do need vast improvement as budget simply doesn't allow us to buy in talent every time in every position.
2. We'll never do the 5-6 in one batch though. Also not necessary.
3. We do have pressure they don't - anything we don't win scum will. That's not acceptable to our fans.
4. Is the talent there? Between us and filth there are very few genuinely good players emerging, even talking years back met alone this season. Gilmour, Tierney, Patterson....

 

[BlueHaze]

I honestly though that was the plan moving forward as we progressed from the third division,Obviously the young talent wasn’t there or the coaching skills were not up to the job,Gilmore,McCrorie and Patterson apart talent from our youth system who have won an extend run in the fist team have been very thin on the ground,
Hopefully the Dutch influence will change that.

 

[ronadamus_prime]

It's a model that is very difficult to emulate. Of course we could emulate aspects of it, but it's not as simple as following a formula. As you've alluded to it's a club culture 60 years in the making. You can point to specific figures within the Ajax model and chart the changes or development of the model. It's not as simple as buy/bring in good youth, develop good youth and then profit. It seems that way, but it's not.

The fans mentality could shift, but it would require something seismic. It's not just as simple as accepting a few barren years or that young players are more prone to on field mistakes either. We've got the issue of having to cope with one of the most intense footballing rivalries in the world. Sure Ajax vs Feyenoord is fiery and hostile, but it's nowhere near as all consuming because they inhabit different cities. Also Ajax are by far the more successful club in that rivalry. The Old Firm, is far more intrinsically intertwined or claustrophobic, us missing out out on honours means they are picking them up. Our fans would have a hard time living with that and vice versa.

Ajax spend vast sums on the very best young players. But they also make vast sums from selling their best players, sums a team in Scotland simply cannot command. The perception globally is that Dutch football is far more competitive than the Scottish league is, this strengthened by the fact multiple Dutch sides have competed in European competitions for decades. Something our nation simply cannot boast. So although Ajax and PSV tend to dominate, there is quality throughout the Dutch league, varying degrees of it but the drop off isn't as severe. Dutch players in general are more highly rated than Scottish ones are, so they've got a massive jump on us by virtue of having a better pedigree.

Where I do think we can become more successful and lessen the financial strains we have, is by developing youth to the point we negate the need to buy so many 'Squad players'. Allowing us to strengthen by buying highly rated youngsters or players that can legitimately slot into our first 11. That's very doable from our perspective and it's also vastly cheaper as a method because youth players cost way less than buying in squad fillers. In doing that certain youth players could legitimately rise beyond the rank of a 'squad player'. Because football development isn't an exact science, players all develop at different rates both physically and mentally. That's something we can build towards, at least for now anyway.

 

[venturablue]

Everything has to come together for that model to work. Scouting and profiling a future player is massive. Paying 7 million for a youth player has more risk that 7 million for a first team player.

 

[club175]

the problem has always been that rangers fans wont be patient enough to let a group of promising kids flourish. Its always about instant results and winning the league at all costs.

 

[bullen an la]

I think it often gets overlooked that the likes of Dortmund and Ajax who have strong youth/pathways get the benefit of their youth teams playing other strong youth teams.

and not getting booted about the park

 

[Wilkinsvolley]

Even when we start bringing young players through some people just want to pile the pressure on. As soon as a young player gets 10 minutes in the team, he should instantly start every game and whoever is in his position is instantly shite and should be dropped and sold. It puts more pressure on the young player, the manager and the senior player. Let coaches and managers, who see these players every day, bring players through at the pace they see is required.

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

Over the last 10 years, we haven't really been able to do anything with the off the park circumstances but we still brought through two of the best Scottish prospects in years now in Patterson and Gilmour. I don't think we can fully replicate the Ajax model or if it's the best approach these days but I think we're on the right track there finally.

 

[Papasmurf]

Scotland.

Mentality. Health. Cultural. Weather. National set up and priorities.

 

[Born a Barras Hick]

Unless they are built like a 16 year old Derek Johnstone, youngsters trying to break through in Scotland are likely to be targeted for treatment by the hammer throwers. Scotland isn't an environment that encourages talented young players.

 

[Papasmurf]

Unless they are built like a 16 year old Derek Johnstone, youngsters trying to break through in Scotland are likely to be targeted for treatment by the hammer throwers. Scotland isn't an environment that encourages talented young players.

And never will. Unfortunately.

 

[Born a Barras Hick]

And never will. Unfortunately.

Dread to think what treatment would have awaited Billy Gilmour had he stayed here. This is a league that encourages the likes of Porteous.

 

[Papasmurf]

Dread to think what treatment would have awaited Billy Gilmour had he stayed here. This is a league that encourages the likes of Porteous.

Never mind the finances. Gilmour made the right call. And good luck to him

 

[ricksen24]

Scotlands mentality is wrong from top to bottom

I have a 6 year old that's addicted to football he's got a ball at his feet from morning to night

His age group are not allowed tournements they have to be called festivals which have no winners and if one team is winning easily you have to take the best players off

Its absolutely bloody mental

Then we can go to facilities we have no where to play in the winter as its like a bog

Spent this morning int he squash court with a ball hoping no one comes in and catches us

Scotland = Dunghole

 

[Jimbo 1690]

Other than man United with the class of 92, is there any big British club that has brought through a host of youth players at the same time in the past 30 years? It's just not in the culture of the the big clubs here, it's win now or be sacked.

Arsenal had a good go remember what was basically a youth team hammering us in preseason friendly