Why does every poor result get blamed on Tav?

[James19]

I think it's too easy for fans go after Tav and the old guard.

It's comforting to think removing them, and all the mental trauma associated with them, will change our fortunes for the better.

The reality is the situation is far, far more difficult than that. Our squad is a mess, and we have a host of players, particularly in midfield to front, who simply are not good enough. It's going to take a lot more than removing our captain as some kind of statement, who still happens to be one of our most effective players throughout the season, to turn the tide. The squad requires major surgery. Again.

 

[TriggersBroom]

No one else is allowed to step up.

It’s his baw he takes all the throw ins, free kicks and corners.

He is also done, lost his first yard of pace that used to get him out of trouble, he is winning a race with no one, towing that caravan, and now has the turning circle of a double decker bus.

I mean that’s just childish pish.

We didn’t have a left footed player on the park last night. When we do, Yilmaz or Barisic takes corners.

Throw ins, if you’ve ever played the game then you’d see that unless it’s a quick taken one, full backs will push up and take the majority of throw ins

Free kicks, not seriously having a go at him for this given how many he’s scored and how many he puts on target?

 

[TheBridgeLoyal]

I genuinely don't buy/read matchday programmes so you'd need to copy and paste what he 'wrote' for me to respond.

Post #124

 

[bluetwo15]

I mean that’s just childish pish.

We didn’t have a left footed player on the park last night. When we do, Yilmaz or Barisic takes corners.

Throw ins, if you’ve ever played the game then you’d see that unless it’s a quick taken one, full backs will push up and take the majority of throw ins

Free kicks, not seriously having a go at him for this given how many he’s scored and how many he puts on target?

So Dowell is not left footed ? Why can’t other right footers take some of these things ?

 

[southside gigolo]

Because he's the leader on the field and playing PISH !

 

[TriggersBroom]

I am at the stage where I believe anybody that defends the usual suspects will be a rattler. Ask any of them if they want to see us getting rid of Goldson, Tav or Lundstram.

Goldson and Lundstram time to go

Tav if we can find better, like any other position, absolutely.

But I don’t believe we’ll find a better contributing right back and I have serious doubts that we’ll find enough suitable midfielders/wingers that will make up for his goals/assist contributions.

And every mentally challenged I know through work, neighbours and weekly 7’s games, everyone of them constantly says they’ve no idea why Tav gets it stinking the way he does as they’d bite their hand off to have a right back that contributes that amount of goals/assists every single season.

This isn’t a new thing either. We’ve had many posters on here for years that can’t wait to pounce on him. We had many that wanted him replaced in the 11 by Lee Hodson ffs

 

[JW1988]

He told us himself he can't handle pressure and folk still think people are making it up about his mentality and how a captain with weak mentality can affect the squad.

Barely any of those great moments there were when we were expected to go dominate a game and show why we're favourites in a must win game, that's where he falls apart.

Why lie on the internet?

 

[TriggersBroom]

So Dowell is not left footed ? Why can’t other right footers take some of these things ?

When did Dowell come on the park?

We do have other right footers but it’s clear he’s by far our best set piece taker

Last night all but 1 corner was put into a dangerous area. Not his fault no one got on the end of them

 

[NFTG]

I think it's too easy for fans go after Tav and the old guard.

It's comforting to think removing them, and all the mental trauma associated with them, will change our fortunes for the better.

The reality is the situation is far, far more difficult than that. Our squad is a mess, and we have a host of players, particularly in midfield to front, who simply are not good enough. It's going to take a lot more than removing our captain as some kind of statement, who still happens to be one of our most effective players throughout the season, to turn the tide. The squad requires major surgery. Again.

It is easy you are right, it is now easy to have a go at them because there is a lot of evidence to have a go at.

How long do you propose we proceed with the same faces and same results as part of our squad before it becomes apparent they actually are part of the surgery needed?

If Alex Ferguson was our manager I would expect he would cut a player like Tav out to make a statement, because sometimes a statement and a change of culture is actually needed

 

[DerHammer88]

A bizarre comment.
John Greig and Richard Gough and Barry Ferguson only wore the armband as an administrative requirement?
Stevie G at Liverpool just ticking a box?
Sir Alex to Willie Miller or Roy Keane, "Here, shove this armband on, it doesn't really mean anything, but somebody's got to do it."
I think I've spotted a flaw in your argument

Ok, then who do you give the captaincy to that would bring more success?

Bare in mind if that person was already in the building surely they'd already be leading by example?

 

[DerHammer88]

Yep I’d agree with that. Just look at this thread, Tav can do no wrong in their eyes.

As long as Tav keeps scoring goals and Rangers keep being serial losers, they’ll be happy.

Literally not one person has said that.

 

[James19]

It is easy you are right, it is now easy to have a go at them because there is a lot of evidence to have a go at.

How long do you propose we proceed with the same faces and same results as part of our squad before it becomes apparent they actually are part of the surgery needed?

If Alex Ferguson was our manager I would expect he wouls cut a player like Tav out to make a statement, because sometimes a statement and a change of culture is actually needed

They might well be and I've no problem with that.

We're only talking about 3 or 4 players here though. The rest of the squad changes from shite to more shite, and the 3 or 4 that remain are the main targets as they've been around for so long.

If we'd made better signings in the summer, it's unlikely we'd be having this discussion.

 

[Tumbling Dice]

He can only do so much though.

He doesn’t sign his teammates

Every year he’s stepped up with contributions.

If all other players contributed half of what Tav has, we’d have far more trophies in the cabinet

Unfortunately though him Goldson and Borna have contributed to a defence that gifts teams ridiculous goals.

Especially against they 19th Century Terrorist cunts. I'll be delighted when I no longer have to watch them playing for Rangers again.

 

[DerHammer88]

The reply of someone who hasn't played or understands football.
We went into that game with the upper hand, 50,000 bears, their influential captain on the bench and an early-ish goal from us and I'm sure we'd have run all over them.
The Manager would have worked all week on this and within 21 seconds the captain fucked up, they scored and the whole day changed and so did the title race.
We lost the initiative, the impetus and let them off the hook again.
The pressure on them was off and they could have scored more in the first half.
You dont get it.

Gerrard, one of the best captains of all time according to some, slipped in a title decider vs Chelsea and they lost the league.

Guess that mistake makes him a shite captain as well.

 

[Bornathepostman]

I think some folk think there are some magic qualities that the arm band brings to the rest of the team. Truth is you could give the armband to anyone and it wouldn’t suddenly make Dessers start taking chances, the defence keep the ball out of the net and the midfield start creating chances.

It’s just low hanging fruit for folk to grab on to when things aren’t going well. The reality is the captaincy in the modern football game is completely irrelevant to how a team plays

 

[thebish1872]

Just seen Boyd’s comments at FT. Spot on.

Continually relying on a right back to dig us out of a hole sums up the bigger problem we have.

No one else regularly steps up.

Put Tav in any winning rangers side of old and he'd rightly be considered an all time great.

Sadly hes the figure head of a team of serial losers and I think that makes him an easy target. He's not without fault but he's nowhere near as bad as people make out on here.

For what it's worth I do think him, Goldson, Borna, Lundstram and Jack need to be moved on in the summer. Just for the sake of my on sanity more than anything else

 

[Bigbluebear]

The notion that if we replaced James Tavernier with Leon King or Dujon Sterling, or anybody really, at right back and it would suddenly make the left back an attacking threat, the centre backs fast, the midfield dynamic, the wingers creative and the striker clinical is fucking laughable.

People have some sort of mental issue with regards to Tav due to him being captain during a poor period in terms of trophies for the club, but it's really nothing to do with him, and if we had others with his contribution we would have fared much better.

 

[Rangersnumberfour]

In championship winning teams the armband means something

Man City literally let the players chose the captain every year.

Pep can’t be that arsed by how important it is.

 

[Orange Peel]

Gerrard, one of the best captains of all time according to some, slipped in a title decider vs Chelsea and they lost the league.

Guess that mistake makes him a shite captain as well.

Best one yet, comparing tav to Steven Gerrard, a world class player and captain.
Lol.

 

[Colinrfc2]

He's hit 26 corners in our last 2 games that amount to nothing, but he is captain so he decides set pieces which we are absolutely gash at, for the amount of free kicks around the area, and corners that we get our return is poor. He would be getting all the credit if we were successful so he should shoulder the blame if we are not, if it's just a token gesture why the reluctance to drop him or our vice captain goldson, blunder after blunder, maybe rest would do them and us good. Big clubs drop their captains and remove the arm band if required ie ManU Harry maguire.

He doesn't decide the set pieces the coaches staff do
Stop making stuff up

 

[El Mas Loco]

Goldson and Lundstram time to go

Tav if we can find better, like any other position, absolutely.

But I don’t believe we’ll find a better contributing right back and I have serious doubts that we’ll find enough suitable midfielders/wingers that will make up for his goals/assist contributions.

And every mentally challenged I know through work, neighbours and weekly 7’s games, everyone of them constantly says they’ve no idea why Tav gets it stinking the way he does as they’d bite their hand off to have a right back that contributes that amount of goals/assists every single season.

This isn’t a new thing either. We’ve had many posters on here for years that can’t wait to pounce on him. We had many that wanted him replaced in the 11 by Lee Hodson ffs

You obviously like the guy.

Plenty of us have seen enough and think he is symptomatic of our failures over the last 7 or 8 years.

 

[TerryMunro]

The notion that if we replaced James Tavernier with Leon King or Dujon Sterling, or anybody really, at right back and it would suddenly make the left back an attacking threat, the centre backs fast, the midfield dynamic, the wingers creative and the striker clinical is fucking laughable.

People have some sort of mental issue with regards to Tav due to him being captain during a poor period in terms of trophies for the club, but it's really nothing to do with him, and if we had others with his contribution we would have fared much better.

Replacing Tav with the two mentioned might free up others in midfield to contribute in a more positive way? Tillman is thriving now at PSV as an attacking midfielder, we tell ours to defend more than attack.

 

[Sh3230]

Tav gets blamed because he's one of the few player who regularly steps up and produces something for us.We expect something from him and when doesn't he gets blamed.

Where's our 3M defender Ben Davies? What's happened to Ryan Jack and Yilmaz? What is Cantwell bringing to the team?

 

[NFTG]

They might well be and I've no problem with that.

We're only talking about 3 or 4 players here though. The rest of the squad changes from shite to more shite, and the 3 or 4 that remain are the main targets as they've been around for so long.

If we'd made better signings in the summer, it's unlikely we'd be having this discussion.

They are 3 or 4 players, who will be on a combined wage, you would expect of close to about 110k a week, it is a lot of money, they aren't cheap players, they will be close to top salary earners. If we were to rebuild it is the kind of wage and salary we would need for it.

Throw in their age profile, they are only likely to regress as players.

We keep going on about how we needed to make better signings every summer, and it is a fair point, but surely now most accept we are a stage the senior players are also part of the problem?

We surely realize that if our scouts and management are to rebuild a team they need funds to do that?

We can't just continue with the likes of Tavernier and Goldson till they reach kicking on 35 waiting on the club adding players around them just so they can win a league again

 

[jigster]

I'm not sure how to reply to this.

We bought him from Wigan I'm sure. We bought him as a right back.

So it's safe to assume, he's been a right back for at least 15 years at professional level at least? Would that be fair to say?

But because he was a right winger at youth level he gets a free pass for defending, that at times is pretty is very shoddy?

Nah, not from me.

not a free pass ( far from it ) its just the basic instinct as a defender just isn't there and never will be , i think its fair to say the role of the modern full back has changed in the last 15 years and while Tav does more than enough going forward it the lack of defensive instincts that gives us so much problems.

 

[Bigbluebear]

Replacing Tav with the two mentioned might free up others in midfield to contribute in a more positive way? Tillman is thriving now at PSV as an attacking midfielder, we tell ours to defend more than attack.

No, it wouldn't.

 

[DerHammer88]

No one else is allowed to step up.

It’s his baw he takes all the throw ins, free kicks and corners.

He is also done, lost his first yard of pace that used to get him out of trouble, he is winning a race with no one, towing that caravan, and now has the turning circle of a double decker bus.

Ah another one talking shite for absolutely no reason. Genuine question why do you feel the need to make up things to back up your point?

Yilmaz / Barisic / Diomande have all taken corners in recent games. Anyone can take throw ins, depending on who is closest. But that aside, most full backs generally take throw ins...that's not some ploy to help Tav take more, that's just a general football thing.

Regarding free kicks. Imagine someone offered you the chance to sign one of the best free kick takers (statistically) in world football over the last decade - you'd be all for that right? You wouldn't then say "aye gee someone else a shot" if they miss a few. That's the current situation with Tav.

 

[90sbear]

He doesn't decide the set pieces the coaches staff do
Stop making stuff up

Well wether he decides or the coaching staff he is the one taking them and it's painful to watch

 

[wee bud's pit boots]

No we don't.

Show me a successful team that has a leader?
You need multiple leaders.

Whilst I agree that there should be leaders all over the park, your post for me is another cop out on behalf of Tav.

The fact is the captain and vice captain are not leaders and I don't give a fcuk what Gerrard, Gio, Beale thought and PC thinks.

How many times have we seen Goldson mess up and blame someone else?

How many times have we seen Tav throw up his arms, instead of showing anger or frustration?

This pair personify this squad. Losers, with the mentality to match.

 

[kirkiebluenose]

A serial loser who’s legacy is 1 title in 7 years he needs removed from the club like the rest of the so called leaders

 

[jigster]

Gerrard, one of the best captains of all time according to some, slipped in a title decider vs Chelsea and they lost the league.

Guess that mistake makes him a shite captain as well.

makes him responsible for handing the initiative over to the opposition when it matter most

 

[TerryMunro]

No, it wouldn't.

Disagree, I think we hinder others to allow a system that suits Tavernier. Remove the requirement to have Tavernier as the prominent attacking threat and we will allow others to thrive.

 

[Colinrfc2]

Replacing Tav with the two mentioned might free up others in midfield to contribute in a more positive way? Tillman is thriving now at PSV as an attacking midfielder, we tell ours to defend more than attack.

That's just utter nonsense, are you suggesting that it's Tavs fault that anybody else plays poor ?

 

[TerryMunro]

That's just utter nonsense, are you suggesting that it's Tavs fault that anybody else plays poor ?

I’m suggesting it’s the systems fault that others are playing poor. A system that is set up for Tav.

 

[ao2]

Four years old that quote is and it's still valid today.

 

[Bigbluebear]

I’m suggesting it’s the systems fault that others are playing poor. A system that is set up for Tav.

It's not set up for Tav at all

 

[James19]

They are 3 or 4 players, who will be on a combined wage, you would expect of close to about 110k a week, it is a lot of money, they aren't cheap players, they will be close to top salary earners. If we were to rebuild it is the kind of wage and salary we would need for it.

Throw in their age profile, they are only likely to regress as players.

We keep going on about how we needed to make better signings every summer, and it is a fair point, but surely now most accept we are a stage the senior players are also part of the problem?

We surely realize that if our scouts and management are to rebuild a team they need funds to do that?

We can't just continue with the likes of Tavernier and Goldson till they reach kicking on 35 waiting on the club adding players around them just so they can win a league again

As I said, I have no problem with letting them go, and can't disagree with much of what you say.

My problem is fans going for the throats of Tavernier, Goldson and now Lundstram whenever the shit hits the fan. The reason we're in this mess is not because of them, as much as some of our fans would like that to be the case. It's wasting millions on players who aren't good enough.

 

[TerryMunro]

It's not set up for Tav at all

It seems that way. If you was to ask a neutral what is our most dominant position I’d suggest that they would say “right back”. It’s set up for Tav.

 

[TheBridgeLoyal]

Literally not one person has said that.

The lengths to want to keep Tav and defend him shows that people are happy with his trophy contribution at this club, even though it’s pathetic.

 

[DerHammer88]

Best one yet, comparing tav to Steven Gerrard, a world class player and captain.
Lol.

You really are quite thick if you can't understand the point being made. Either that or you're just a troll.

I bet you were one of the guys who wanted Tav replaced by Hodson or Flanagan back in the day right?

 

[DD1872]

Because we have seem the same story every year for the last 5 years (empty stadiums aside). It is clear that the team is mentally weak. That mental weakness is being cultivated in new arrivals by the leadership group. The leadership group that remains and that have been the common denominator in all this is Tav, Goldson and lundstram to an extent.

 

[JordMack80]

genuinely baffling.

How anyone could watch tonight and believe Tav is the problem is beyond me.

We had a woeful midfield 3 that Dundee walked through at times which happened at the weekend as well. Lundstram and Lawrence barely got beyond jogging pace tonight.

We have multiple forward players who struggle to create and stick the ball in the net. In January many felt we needed to sign a goalscorer and that’s now coming back to bite us on the arse.

Silva, Matondo are useless. Roofe is like an old cripple and Dessers is just woeful.

Goldson and Souttar are a bombscare partnership.

Tav has flaws, no arguments there. If he didn’t then he’d be playing at a far higher level.

But the amount of unfair criticism towards him is genuinely baffling.

“He goes hiding” - utter shite. No matter how bad he’s playing or the team is playing, he always shows for the ball and tries to drive us forward.

“He’s a bottle merchant” - utter shite. Lost count how many times he’s stepped up in pressure situations/moments in massive games to deliver an assist/free kick/goal. Hardly the signs of a bottler.

“he’s no a captain” - two world class players and captains in GVB and SG sung his praises as a captain and player but what do they know. All because he doesn’t scream and shout and grab teammates by the throat on the park.

He was our biggest contributor in reaching the Europa league final, top scorer in the competition scoring many pressure penalties including leading in the shootout with the first penalty. Almost won the thing had it not been for Ramsay.

Stepped up in the league cup final and regularly in the 55 season.

The trophy count since he’s been here hasn’t been good enough but it’s a collective team issue rather than a Tav issue. And the first few years he was here is hardly a stick to beat him with given the shite surrounding him and the circus we had in the dugout until Gerrard arrived.

If fans genuinely believe getting rid of Tav will result in our defence being solid and midfield/strikers making up Tav’s numbers and us winning everything in sight, it’s delusional IMO. And only when he leaves will we realise just how much he brings to the table.

We’ve far bigger problems in the team to address than Tav.

The Celtic game summed him up to me , he was terrible when we really needed him to step up and lead the team to what would have been a defying three points , he went in his shell .

Always the last to leave the pitch when we win but first one down the tunnel when things don’t go right .

I don’t blame the manager for the last three results but some of the so called senior players , strolling around , passing the ball to death instead of taking the game by the scruff of the neck and taking responsibility.

No idea where we go from here as a club but big changes are needed as it is so miserable to watch currently .

 

[Colinrfc2]

I’m suggesting it’s the systems fault that others are playing poor. A system that is set up for Tav.

How is it set up for Tav ,I know you don't like him but stop making stuff up

 

[wee bud's pit boots]

The notion that if we replaced James Tavernier with Leon King or Dujon Sterling, or anybody really, at right back and it would suddenly make the left back an attacking threat, the centre backs fast, the midfield dynamic, the wingers creative and the striker clinical is fucking laughable.

People have some sort of mental issue with regards to Tav due to him being captain during a poor period in terms of trophies for the club, but it's really nothing to do with him, and if we had others with his contribution we would have fared much better.

Who has actually advocated replacing Tav with King or Sterling? That notion is simply ridiculous.

Without pouring over the whole thread, I doubt anyone has said that.

 

[DerHammer88]

Disagree, I think we hinder others to allow a system that suits Tavernier. Remove the requirement to have Tavernier as the prominent attacking threat and we will allow others to thrive.

When Tav and Barisic were told to stay back more under Gio, which players thrived in this new system?

What midfielders and wingers stepped up to replace his output?

Who has actually advocated replacing Tav with King or Sterling? That notion is simply ridiculous.

Without pouring over the whole thread, I doubt anyone has said that.

There was a thread today suggesting we play Devine there next season. Seriously.

 

[aayjay]

John Greig was with us for what, about 16/17 years and won 5 league titles.

Thank feck social media wasn’t around back then with being second best fairly regularly.

I remember match postmortems in the bus on the way home back then and Greig was frequently slated to high heaven if we didn't win.

 

[NFTG]

As I said, I have no problem with letting them go, and can't disagree with much of what you say.

My problem is fans going for the throats of Tavernier, Goldson and now Lundstram whenever the shit hits the fan. The reason we're in this mess is not because of them, as much as some of our fans would like that to be the case. It's wasting millions on players who aren't good enough.

They don't just go for them though, fans are aware we have a widespread issue, but there are different issues that can be fixed at different stages.

For the time being, there is more than enough to show why fans want to move on from the 3 of these.

We have a new recruitment team, fans have to faith in that they can recruit well.

We have a new manager, fans have to faith that he can impose his style on a team once given time

What fans (most) simply don't have is faith in that these clutch of players are going to be part of a league winning team again, they have been burnt by it too many times, the reality is so are the players burnt by it, the shit is all over them, they are toxic now to most fans.

The next time Tavernier for instance goes to Dingwall as Captain, in a stretch for the title, speaking to the side, trying to get them going, he is going to have the memory of going there twice before, and being part of sides who fucked it, with different players around him both times. That on a psychological level has to be impactful to him and those listening to it, does he even believe it anymore, or is the doubt there, somewhere saying, you know this could go to shit.

The presence of Tavernier, Goldson and if he stays Lundstram is going to be unhealthy for the manager and any players, the blame on them will only get worse rather than improve, every single result next season is going to come back to them, and going to come back to the manager for keeping them. If they stay fans will offer zero patience, zero tolerance, every run of games we win will have people waiting on us fucking it, it isn't going to be healthy

The removal of them would have a cleansing effect to nigh on all involved.

 

[Andre55]

We need a right back that can defend.

We have one! Sterling but Tav Goldson and Lundstram are the undroppable three it seems!

 

[DerHammer88]

The lengths to want to keep Tav and defend him shows that people are happy with his trophy contribution at this club, even though it’s pathetic.

I think the main points tend to be that Tav does contribute. It's not his fault that during his career we've had a few duff managers and an inferior squad to Celtic.

Yet again he has contributed this season. Goals and assists as well as scoring the winner in the cup final when we weren't creating much else.

 

[TheBridgeLoyal]

I think the main points tend to be that Tav does contribute. It's not his fault that during his career we've had a few duff managers and an inferior squad to Celtic.

Yet again he has contributed this season. Goals and assists as well as scoring the winner in the cup final when we weren't creating much else.

It comes down to mentality, no one is denying how good his goal scoring record is.

When the pressure is on, he’s weak. 21 seconds it took him to throw his team mates under the bus at the Old firm and that was the whole game plan gone. In a game where you need your captain to show leadership. That sums him up and in my eyes it was unforgivable.