Why does every poor result get blamed on Tav?

When Tav and Barisic were told to stay back more under Gio, which players thrived in this new system?

What midfielders and wingers stepped up to replace his output?



There was a thread today suggesting we play Devine there next season. Seriously.
Exactly the problem. When a manager dare tries to change the system it results in a collective loss in performances. We need to get past this reliance on the right back and if that means removing him completely from the squad then so be it. It just isn’t contributing enough in an attacking sense in bringing others into the game and we know exactly how easy it is for opponents to take advantage of it in a defensive sense.
 
Ok, then who do you give the captaincy to that would bring more success?

Bare in mind if that person was already in the building surely they'd already be leading by example?
I'm sure you're correct but I was commenting on the generic comment about being a captain, which I think is ludicrous.
Nothing else
 
The notion that if we replaced James Tavernier with Leon King or Dujon Sterling, or anybody really, at right back and it would suddenly make the left back an attacking threat, the centre backs fast, the midfield dynamic, the wingers creative and the striker clinical is fucking laughable.

People have some sort of mental issue with regards to Tav due to him being captain during a poor period in terms of trophies for the club, but it's really nothing to do with him, and if we had others with his contribution we would have fared much better.

It is obviously something to do with him. He might not be the main reason, but to exonerate him completely is as daft as citing him as the sole reason.
 
I think it's too easy for fans go after Tav and the old guard.

It's comforting to think removing them, and all the mental trauma associated with them, will change our fortunes for the better.

The reality is the situation is far, far more difficult than that. Our squad is a mess, and we have a host of players, particularly in midfield to front, who simply are not good enough. It's going to take a lot more than removing our captain as some kind of statement, who still happens to be one of our most effective players throughout the season, to turn the tide. The squad requires major surgery. Again.

A few posters have been saying similar since pre season - they were shot down back then. Everyone could see the problem early doors.

We had an appalling summer of recruitment and outgoings.

Players like Jack and Raskin have contributed nothing.

I also question why Balogun and McCausland have been bombed out to the bench.
 
Made up nonsense which shows how little you understand football

Was it at Rugby Park on the first day of the season and a goal down, and chasing the game. Instead of taking a quick throw in to keep the attack going, we had to wait for him coming across from the other side of the pitch to take the throw in?

I'm quite sure I didn't imagine that.
 
Whilst I agree that there should be leaders all over the park, your post for me is another cop out on behalf of Tav.

The fact is the captain and vice captain are not leaders and I don't give a fcuk what Gerrard, Gio, Beale thought and PC thinks.

How many times have we seen Goldson mess up and blame someone else?

How many times have we seen Tav throw up his arms, instead of showing anger or frustration?

This pair personify this squad. Losers, with the mentality to match.
Respectfully, you don't know what a footballer wants in a leader. Go back and listen to Jack Butland and how he speaks about Tavernier from about 3 weeks ago.
 
Mate, with all due respect…..what are the common factors in the continued failures?

I’ve highlighted two of them over the past couple of seasons

There comes a time to part ways with the roots of problems, that time is overdue unfortunately
You could apply the same logic to Gerrard and Carragher who never won a league

Kane who never won a trophy with spurs

Just because of their longevity doesn't mean it's them to blame
 
It comes down to mentality, no one is denying how good his goal scoring record is.

When the pressure is on, he’s weak. 21 seconds it took him to throw his team mates under the bus at the Old firm and that was the whole game plan gone. In a game where you need your captain to show leadership. That sums him up and in my eyes it was unforgivable.

I'm curious as to how that mistake is throwing anyone under the bus or lacking leadership? Aye it was a horror show of a mistake, but 99% of the time it goes out for a throw in and we regroup. It was a complete freak accident.
 
Was it at Rugby Park on the first day of the season and a goal down, and chasing the game. Instead of taking a quick throw in to keep the attack going, we had to wait for him coming across from the other side of the pitch to take the throw in?

I'm quite sure I didn't imagine that.
It's made up nonsense that he decides who takes set plays. We have designated set play takers decided by the management and coaching teams for each position of the pitch be it right corner, left corner, free kick left of centre, right of centre etc.

To suggest that a player on the park decides he will take everything because he is captain is just nonsensical drivel and simply made up as a way to try and stick the boot in.

As for the throw you mention, yes, I was there I remember it. And as I said somewhere above, generally full backs take the throw ins, however when we have a team not set up we need to be quicker and try to catch them out with faster throws.
 
I'm curious as to how that mistake is throwing anyone under the bus or lacking leadership? Aye it was a horror show of a mistake, but 99% of the time it goes out for a throw in and we regroup. It was a complete freak accident.
It was a freak accident caused by Tav! And his incompetence.

Excuses excuses excuses.
 
The lengths to want to keep Tav and defend him shows that people are happy with his trophy contribution at this club, even though it’s pathetic.
If we can replace him with better, all for it.

But given we’ve continually failed to address the midfield area for years.

We’ve failed to address the winger situation in years

We’ve failed to address the striker situation in years

We’ve failed to address the left back position in years

We’ve failed to address the centre half position in years

I don’t believe right back is a position that should be priority for improving given the glaring issues above.

We’ve no goal scoring midfielders
We’ve one goal scoring winger who’s on loan
We don’t have a good goal scoring striker
We have 1 half decent left back who’s never fit for long enough to make any meaningful contribution
We’ve no decent centre halves now Goldson looks to have aged 5 years in the space of this season and Souttar is a bombscare

These positions need addressed first IMO
 
Replacing Tav with the two mentioned might free up others in midfield to contribute in a more positive way? Tillman is thriving now at PSV as an attacking midfielder, we tell ours to defend more than attack.
Tillman was thriving at Rangers, 12 goals, 5 assists, did you miss that?
Glad to see you're back on the football chat now we're shite again, funny that eh?
 
No one has been at the heart of the annual season collapse more than Tav and Goldson.

No one has been at the heart of chances, goals conceded and points lost against the scum more than Tav and Goldson.

Solution = keep them both on next season again. Next season might be different.
 
The Celtic game summed him up to me , he was terrible when we really needed him to step up and lead the team to what would have been a defying three points , he went in his shell .

Always the last to leave the pitch when we win but first one down the tunnel when things don’t go right .

I don’t blame the manager for the last three results but some of the so called senior players , strolling around , passing the ball to death instead of taking the game by the scruff of the neck and taking responsibility.

No idea where we go from here as a club but big changes are needed as it is so miserable to watch currently .
First half he was rotten

Second half he stepped up. Continually drove us forward, took the penalty to get us back into the game as well under huge pressure
 
Gerrard, one of the best captains of all time according to some, slipped in a title decider vs Chelsea and they lost the league.

Guess that mistake makes him a shite captain as well.

And how many times did he make that slip?

An unfortunate once?

Or continual slips?

Comparing one, albeit high profile cock up from a captain who almost single handedly led Liverpool to a CL title, to a guy whose berth can be compromised continually and as recently as last week by a team at the second bottom of the league is embarrassing, even by Tavacheerleaders standards.
 
If we can replace him with better, all for it.

But given we’ve continually failed to address the midfield area for years.

We’ve failed to address the winger situation in years

We’ve failed to address the striker situation in years

We’ve failed to address the left back position in years

We’ve failed to address the centre half position in years

I don’t believe right back is a position that should be priority for improving given the glaring issues above.

We’ve no goal scoring midfielders
We’ve one goal scoring winger who’s on loan
We don’t have a good goal scoring striker
We have 1 half decent left back who’s never fit for long enough to make any meaningful contribution
We’ve no decent centre halves now Goldson looks to have aged 5 years in the space of this season and Souttar is a bombscare

These positions need addressed first IMO

Tavernier is 33 in October. If not Sterling, a progressive club would be looking to bring in younger competition to challenge his spot, whether it's a Jefte type signing or whoever.

The idea that him and Goldson should play until retirement just because of their status has always been a nonsense, especially when they're quite clearly on the decline.
 
Do you think the team has look inspired and motivated in recent games?
Aside from the second half v Celtic I feel the team have run out of ideas to win a match and the style of football being played is crap. That's nothing to do with being inspired on the pitch. Tavernier is not going to do a Gazza and run the full length of the pitch leaving defenders in his wake which is visibly inspiring.
 
That's good, can you admit that Tillman was thriving at Rangers though?
A lot was glad to see him leave. My point is an attacking midfielder like Tillman doesn’t appreciate having to be some sort of understudy in an attacking threat down the right to a fullback, either does players like Wright or Kent. They aren’t made to be stuck in the defensive position whilst the defender is stuck in the attacking. It’s arse for elbow.
 
It's made up nonsense that he decides who takes set plays. We have designated set play takers decided by the management and coaching teams for each position of the pitch be it right corner, left corner, free kick left of centre, right of centre etc.

To suggest that a player on the park decides he will take everything because he is captain is just nonsensical drivel and simply made up as a way to try and stick the boot in.

As for the throw you mention, yes, I was there I remember it. And as I said somewhere above, generally full backs take the throw ins, however when we have a team not set up we need to be quicker and try to catch them out with faster throws.

I don't think I've said he decides what happens with the set pieces. But you have to admit he takes corners more than most.

As for free kicks in front of goal, he's a phenomenom.
 
There is a lot of mention of areas needing addressed and work, totally fair.

If you look at the return from open play Tavernier in the league, since goals are seemingly what defines his play, he has 6 goals and 8 assists, Greg Taylor has 3 goals and 5 assists and as far as I am aware he doesn't take freekicks or corners for Celtic?

I would highly doubt Celtic fans even think of Taylor as a player who should be close to their top salary earner or see him as a player they heavily rely on, they will actually most likely replace him in the summer.

From open play the return of Tavernier is just that of a fullback, it's not actually that exceptional.

I clearly think Tavernier is a better player than Greg Taylor, but there should be some form of perspective of what output we get from Tavenier relative to his salary
 
You really are quite thick if you can't understand the point being made. Either that or you're just a troll.

I bet you were one of the guys who wanted Tav replaced by Hodson or Flanagan back in the day right?
Making stuff up now cause you embarrassed yourself.
 
A lot was glad to see him leave. My point is an attacking midfielder like Tillman doesn’t appreciate having to be some sort of understudy in an attacking threat down the right to a fullback, either does players like Wright or Kent. They aren’t made to be stuck in the defensive position whilst the defender is stuck in the attacking. It’s arse for elbow.

So it's Tav's fault that our manager decided to play Tillman wide right instead of as a number 10 where he thrived?

Interesting take.
 
A lot was glad to see him leave. point is an attacking midfielder like Tillman doesn’t appreciate having to be some sort of understudy in an attacking threat down the right to a fullback, either does players like Wright or Kent. They aren’t made to be stuck in the defensive position whilst the defender is stuck in the attacking. It’s arse for elbow.
Is there anything that isn't Tavs fault
 
So it's Tav's fault that our manager decided to play Tillman wide right instead of as a number 10 where he thrived?

Interesting take.
It costs the managers their job for trying to shoehorn players into foreign roles to accommodate a system that suits one player. I hope this manager has more about him or he too will meet the same outcome and we will be discussing this again about this time next season.
 
But that’s not really the case. No one is comparing their ability/career.

Simply pointing out flaws in arguments.
Never really followed Gerrard's career but bet he never made many mistakes, if you can even call slipping a mistake.
Tav has won us loads of games with out of this world free kicks but he's also made loads of mistakes and been the captain at some of our worst results and most heartless performances in our recent history.
Time to move on, for everyone's sake.
 
A lot was glad to see him leave. My point is an attacking midfielder like Tillman doesn’t appreciate having to be some sort of understudy in an attacking threat down the right to a fullback, either does players like Wright or Kent. They aren’t made to be stuck in the defensive position whilst the defender is stuck in the attacking. It’s arse for elbow.
Let's be honest none of them were stuck in defensive positions.
So what you're basically saying is these attackers shouldn't need to track back and help the team out?
Not many teams allow that, maybe if it was Messi or Ronaldo you'd excuse them defensive duties.
 
You're still drunk from last night pal, been making a lady's front bottom of yourself for more than 12 hours now.
Never had a drink.
Loads agreeing with me and all my group chats are mostly people who go and have season tickets and all saying the same thing.
Seems to be armchair fans like yourself who don't go that are spouting mince.
 
Let's be honest none of them were stuck in defensive positions.
So what you're basically saying is these attackers shouldn't need to track back and help the team out?
Not many teams allow that, maybe if it was Messi or Ronaldo you'd excuse them defensive duties.
Not when it’s their number one priority. We have a system where the right back concentrates more in an attacking role and the attacking midfielders have to concentrate more on a defensive role. It’s arse for elbow.
 
Tavernier is 33 in October. If not Sterling, a progressive club would be looking to bring in younger competition to challenge his spot, whether it's a Jefte type signing or whoever.

The idea that him and Goldson should play until retirement just because of their status has always been a nonsense, especially when they're quite clearly on the decline.
I don’t disagree with this.

All I’ve continually said is we have far more urgent concerns in other positions needing addressed first
 
The reason he gets the blame for every defeat is simply because he's been here so long he, along with Goldson and now Lundstram have become the poster boys for repeated failure, which is a bit unfair for a few reasons.

Nobody is arguing that they are world beaters, but they're decent players. Certainly capable of playing in good Rangers teams, having already done so. They can blow hot and cold with regards to form but then, that happens to world class players, so expecting 9/10 performances every week is ludicrous.

There's only one reason we haven't won more in the last few years and it's dead simple.

It's not lack of "winning mentality."

It's not because we don't have enough Rangers supporters that "just get it."

It's not because we don't have "a core of Scottish players."

It's not because we don't have "a Gough type captain."

It's because, in general, over the last few years celtic have had better players and a better management team than we've had, as uncomfortable a truth that is to many.

People looking at Tav, and to a lesser extent the other two as the reason we don't win more are daft. Of course, they can have poor performances, poor form, make mistakes, cost goals but the reason they remain here so long is that we can't afford to replace them with better quality, or we'd have done it by now.

Tav is our best, most productive player. Has been for years. We aren't losing games and trophies because he's in the team, it's because he's playing in teams with Garner, Wright, Dessers, Lammers, Cifuentes, Kiernan, Pena, Martin, Beerman, the list is endless. People cry that he's not a captain like he can rally Silva into becoming a winger or inspire Dessers into Alan Shearer, it's crazy.

Tav, Goldson, Lundstram. When they make mistakes, it costs us goals and games. But as I've said on here repeatedly, Our defence is functional for Scottish football. We don't concede an excessive amount of goals.

All our issues are at the top end of the pitch.

We don't have a reliable striker on the books.

Matondo, poor return.
McCausland, poor return.
Silva, poor return.
Sima, good return on the left, now on the right.
Cantwell, poor return.
Lawrence, poor return.
Dowell, poor return.
Wright, no return.

This is our attacking options. Where's the goals coming from?

Some even say Dessers has had a decent return despite having a very similar return in the league to Alfredo Morelos final season when he phoned it in. He's been mediocre at an absolute push.

The only one out of the above you can rely on isn't even our player. The only one I'd be happy to see here next season.

The Ross County result doesn't happen if we kill it off earlier. The Motherwell and Dundee games we created nothing substantial.

We don't even  look like scoring goals.

How does the backline keep getting the blame?
 
I don't think I've said he decides what happens with the set pieces. But you have to admit he takes corners more than most.

As for free kicks in front of goal, he's a phenomenom.
So why are you getting involved in a conversation about that very thing then if you've not said it?
90sBear said "but he is captain so he decides set pieces"
I said it's made up nonsense then you quoted me

As for corners, yeah he does. Again by design not by him just deciding
 
Never really followed Gerrard's career but bet he never made many mistakes, if you can even call slipping a mistake.
Tav has won us loads of games with out of this world free kicks but he's also made loads of mistakes and been the captain at some of our worst results and most heartless performances in our recent history.
Time to move on, for everyone's sake.
Gerrard was a world class player and played in a position that even if he gave it away, he has minimum 4 players behind him to prevent a goal.

If we can find better than any of our players, Tav included, I’m all for it.

I’m just struggling to buy into this notion that replacing Tav will result in our -midfielders becoming energetic/aggressive and goal scoring
-our strikers being able to start scoring goals and being clinical
-our wingers being able to beat defenders, create chances and score goals too
-our centre halves becoming players again and not bombscares

I’m not a Tav fan boy nor do I believe he’s above criticism but I 100% believe the right back position is way down the priority positions we need to improve on in the summer

If we had a functioning, energetic, aggressive and contributing midfield and strikers that don’t need 10 chances to score a goal, we’d be far better off and that’s before we look at the defence
 
Gerrard was a world class player and played in a position that even if he gave it away, he has minimum 4 players behind him to prevent a goal.

If we can find better than any of our players, Tav included, I’m all for it.

I’m just struggling to buy into this notion that replacing Tav will result in our -midfielders becoming energetic/aggressive and goal scoring
-our strikers being able to start scoring goals and being clinical
-our wingers being able to beat defenders, create chances and score goals too
-our centre halves becoming players again and not bombscares

I’m not a Tav fan boy nor do I believe he’s above criticism but I 100% believe the right back position is way down the priority positions we need to improve on in the summer

If we had a functioning, energetic, aggressive and contributing midfield and strikers that don’t need 10 chances to score a goal, we’d be far better off and that’s before we look at the defence
You still don't get it mate.
 
It's because, in general, over the last few years celtic have had better players and a better management team than we've had, as uncomfortable a truth that is to many.

When we played Kilmarnock at Rugby Park to open the season, did that matter

When we played Dundee last night, did that matter
When we played Ross County at the weekend, did that matter
When we played Motherwell did that matter.

Under Gio what cost us the league was results against Dundee United, Motherwell and Ross County.

People keep speaking about Celtic, and referencing Celtic, we couldn't even reach the stage of playing them at Parkhead to cost us the league

We aren't bottling it against Celtic.

We aren't playing teams we are measurably worse than to cost us points which win titles.

We haven't been able to beat Celtic this season and we STILL can't win the league
 
Was it at Rugby Park on the first day of the season and a goal down, and chasing the game. Instead of taking a quick throw in to keep the attack going, we had to wait for him coming across from the other side of the pitch to take the throw in?

I'm quite sure I didn't imagine that.

That clips been turned into something it wasn't.

Tavs shouting for the ball to be thrown to him and lundatram I think it was dithered and dithered and dithered until Tav was back across and then he gave him the ball.
 
It is obviously something to do with him. He might not be the main reason, but to exonerate him completely is as daft as citing him as the sole reason.
I agree with this. What I don’t understand is why the debate is so polarised. There’s never any balance when it comes to discussion around Tav.

If you criticise him, you get called a hater. Vice versa and you’re a fanboy.

I don’t think it’s outrageous to suggest that Tav’s form hasn’t been great recently and because he is the captain, he’s more of a lightening rod for criticism. That’s what happens when you’re captain.

Is he the biggest problem we have? I genuinely don’t think he is - the spine of the team is deeply problematic and needs to be addressed before anything else imo. But that doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t be taking a long hard look at Tav’s role and performances. And having a think about the next couple of seasons and whether we carry on regardless with him as right back and captain. I think that’s an entirely reasonable discussion to be had.
 
When we played Kilmarnock at Rugby Park to open the season, did that matter

When we played Dundee last night, did that matter
When we played Ross County at the weekend, did that matter
When we played Motherwell did that matter.

Under Gio what cost us the league was results against Dundee United, Motherwell and Ross County.

People keep speaking about Celtic, and referencing Celtic, we couldn't even reach the stage of playing them at Parkhead to cost us the league

We aren't bottling it against Celtic.

We aren't playing teams we are measurably worse than to cost us points which win titles.

We haven't been able to beat Celtic this season and we STILL can't win the league
Did you read everything I wrote or just pick out a bit to cry about?
 
Did you read everything I wrote or just pick out a bit to cry about?

I did, the part I made reference to stood out, people need to stop going on about Celtic and what they spend, their players and manager, it's not the reason we aren't going to win the league this season.

They couldn't have been much shitter and done much more to f*ck the league for themselves and we still haven't been able to take advantage of that because we can't take the bins out against the other sides in the league
 
I did, the part I made reference to stood out, people need to stop going on about Celtic and what they spend, their players and manager, it's not the reason we aren't going to win the league this season.

They couldn't have been much shitter and done much more to f*ck the league for themselves and we still haven't been able to take advantage of that because we can't take the bins out against the other sides in the league
Yes, very much for the reasons I said in the rest of it.
 
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