Why does every poor result get blamed on Tav?

Orange Peel said:
You still don't get it mate.
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I’d turn that around and say I don’t think you’re getting it.

Despite your patronising post, I’ve been going to Ibrox and away games for just over 30 years so I’ve seen us under Walter during the highs, and seen the lows under PLG, McLeish in his final year and the more recent decade or so of utter shite.

IMO Tav would have been our first choice right back in any Rangers team from the early 90’s.

Do you genuinely believe that replacing Tav will result in us hoovering up every other trophy?

As I’ve said repeatedly, the biggest issue IMO is the lack of quality throughout our squad and first 11 in particular.

Realistically what players would anyone be sad to see leaving in the summer? For me only Butland falls into that category.

Players I’d like to keep as I think they’d be better amongst better quality of players / have a future would be Sima, Diomande, Raskin.

We require major surgery in the team and again, I think right back is way down the pecking order.
 
Bigbluebear said:
That clips been turned into something it wasn't.

Tavs shouting for the ball to be thrown to him and lundatram I think it was dithered and dithered and dithered until Tav was back across and then he gave him the ball.
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Well if the clip is posted again and you are proved ccorrect, I'll eat all the humble pie going. But it's certainly not the way I remember the incident.
 
Chocolateleftfoot said:
Yes, very much for the reasons I said in the rest of it.
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It's not though,

Because we play in Scotland, and as poor as some think our players are, they generally are better than all but one team we play often.

Woe is us poor us, look at our squad.

Look at Aberdeen, Hearts, Hearts, Ross County and Motherwells squads
 
TriggersBroom said:
I’d turn that around and say I don’t think you’re getting it.

Despite your patronising post, I’ve been going to Ibrox and away games for just over 30 years so I’ve seen us under Walter during the highs, and seen the lows under PLG, McLeish in his final year and the more recent decade or so of utter shite.

IMO Tav would have been our first choice right back in any Rangers team from the early 90’s.

Do you genuinely believe that replacing Tav will result in us hoovering up every other trophy?

As I’ve said repeatedly, the biggest issue IMO is the lack of quality throughout our squad and first 11 in particular.

Realistically what players would anyone be sad to see leaving in the summer? For me only Butland falls into that category.

Players I’d like to keep as I think they’d be better amongst better quality of players / have a future would be Sima, Diomande, Raskin.

We require major surgery in the team and again, I think right back is way down the pecking order.
Click to expand...
Do you not think Sterling could do a job either in CM or RB?
 
TriggersBroom said:
I’d turn that around and say I don’t think you’re getting it.

Despite your patronising post, I’ve been going to Ibrox and away games for just over 30 years so I’ve seen us under Walter during the highs, and seen the lows under PLG, McLeish in his final year and the more recent decade or so of utter shite.

IMO Tav would have been our first choice right back in any Rangers team from the early 90’s.

Do you genuinely believe that replacing Tav will result in us hoovering up every other trophy?

As I’ve said repeatedly, the biggest issue IMO is the lack of quality throughout our squad and first 11 in particular.

Realistically what players would anyone be sad to see leaving in the summer? For me only Butland falls into that category.

Players I’d like to keep as I think they’d be better amongst better quality of players / have a future would be Sima, Diomande, Raskin.

We require major surgery in the team and again, I think right back is way down the pecking order.
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I'd say Gary Stevens was a better defensive full back but nowhere near Tav in offence. And of course he had one major howler and blot on his landscape.
 
SPRINGBOIG LOYAL said:
Do you not think Sterling could do a job either in CM or RB?
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Sterling would be my first choice CM every day of the week.

Sadly Yilmaz is injured again and Barisic has checked out so I get why he had to play LB last night

Would I play him over Tav at RB? Not at this moment in time as I genuinely think from evidence so far, he is far more of an asset in CM with his aggression and energy
 
TriggersBroom said:
Sterling would be my first choice CM every day of the week.

Sadly Yilmaz is injured again and Barisic has checked out so I get why he had to play LB last night

Would I play him over Tav at RB? Not at this moment in time as I genuinely think from evidence so far, he is far more of an asset in CM with his aggression and energy
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Hypothetically if we could get £3-5m from Saudi for Tav would you sell him? When Sterling could be the ready replacement?

I get your CM comment that’s where he would’ve played for me until the end of the season.
 
TriggersBroom said:
He can only do so much though.

He doesn’t sign his teammates

Every year he’s stepped up with contributions.

If all other players contributed half of what Tav has, we’d have far more trophies in the cabinet
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john greig was everthing a rangers captain should be ,went from 1967 till 72 with rangers only winning the league cup ,and he missed the game through having the flu, tav is not perfect but he is the least of our problems
 
SPRINGBOIG LOYAL said:
Hypothetically if we could get £3-5m from Saudi for Tav would you sell him? When Sterling could be the ready replacement?

I get your CM comment that’s where he would’ve played for me until the end of the season.
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I’d be looking for more than £5m tbh

And it depends on how the manager wants to play next season. Are the full backs to defend only with very little forward contribution? If so, I’d be content with Sterling right back

If the manager wants bombing full backs then IMO Sterling isn’t that type.

I’d be happy with Sterling in CM going forward tbh
 
NFTG said:
It's not though,

Because we play in Scotland, and as poor as some think our players are, they generally are better than all but one team we play often.

Woe is us poor us, look at our squad.

Look at Aberdeen, Hearts, Hearts, Ross County and Motherwells squads
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Yes, they are generally better than all but one. That's why we generally beat all but one and finish ahead of all but one in the league. What point are you trying to make? We've got the 2nd best squad in the league and continually finish 2nd best.

We have a plethora of attacking players that don't have enough goal contributions to consistently win games and trophies. Until that changes, nothing changes.
 
TriggersBroom said:
I’d turn that around and say I don’t think you’re getting it.

Despite your patronising post, I’ve been going to Ibrox and away games for just over 30 years so I’ve seen us under Walter during the highs, and seen the lows under PLG, McLeish in his final year and the more recent decade or so of utter shite.

IMO Tav would have been our first choice right back in any Rangers team from the early 90’s.

Do you genuinely believe that replacing Tav will result in us hoovering up every other trophy?

As I’ve said repeatedly, the biggest issue IMO is the lack of quality throughout our squad and first 11 in particular.

Realistically what players would anyone be sad to see leaving in the summer? For me only Butland falls into that category.

Players I’d like to keep as I think they’d be better amongst better quality of players / have a future would be Sima, Diomande, Raskin.

We require major surgery in the team and again, I think right back is way down the pecking order.
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Dam right mate !!!
 
TriggersBroom said:
I’d be looking for more than £5m tbh

And it depends on how the manager wants to play next season. Are the full backs to defend only with very little forward contribution? If so, I’d be content with Sterling right back

If the manager wants bombing full backs then IMO Sterling isn’t that type.

I’d be happy with Sterling in CM going forward tbh
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I know our recruitment in the last few seasons has left much to be desired but for me £3-5m gets you a defender who can get forward and contribute aswell as defend. For me Tav is now at an age where if I could get £3m+ and £30,000 a week off the books I’d be happy.

I do also agree though that there are other positions that are more of a priority but for me Tav cannot be captain next year with Goldson as vice captain if both are still here. The body language of both of them when we go a goal behind, make a mistake is not something that would motivate me.

I do really think Sterling could be a standout there and our next £10m+ sale. Hopefully he isn’t moved from RB, LB, CM rotationally because of his versatility though and never nails down one position.
 
Vidmar said:
Easy target.

The armband means nothing, it’s just an administrative requirement. The whole squad and coaching side need to share the blame.
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I don’t agree with the arm band point. For me, In every walk of life, every successful team needs a leader and leaders. For me that’s how a successful team functions. It’s all about soft skills, respect, motivation, standards, mentality and trust etc.

The leaders should be pulling the weaker members of the group over the line with them. That’s what makes them great leaders.

I do feel sorry for Tav and agree with you that he is an easy target. There is much more to this than just ‘Tav’ ‘Get rid of Tav’ etc.

However, there does appear to be an indisputable wider mentality problem in the dressing room, where our supposed top men, continually fall to bits no matter how many new additions are made to the group.
 
Chocolateleftfoot said:
Yes, they are generally better than all but one. That's why we generally beat all but one and finish ahead of all but one in the league. What point are you trying to make? We've got the 2nd best squad in the league and continually finish 2nd best.

We have a plethora of attacking players that don't have enough goal contributions to consistently win games and trophies. Until that changes, nothing changes.
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The point is it’s not solely about finance, evidenced by this very season when a number of those sides have also beat Celtic, and they were there to be taken advantage of.

Sport does revert from finance on occasion, and should have done a lot more than it has with us in recent years when we have often fell on the wrong side of it

Sides with far less budget have often beat us in Cups, you’d think we’d just get knocked out by Celtic every season but that’s not been the case.

Let the attacking players hit a few penalties a year then we can all retrospectively look at their numbers and let that be the cause of revising views on them then if they don’t have enough goal contributions.

If Cantwell bangs in a few he’d have apparently went from a so so year to a fantastic year based just on that.
 
I honestly don't think it's Tav as an individual player that most people have a problem with. I certainly don't, he's stepped up for us time after time. It's just that as the captain and leader, he's the figurehead of all the heartache and failure we've suffered over the last 8 years. I think we need a fresh start.
 
Colinrfc2 said:
How is it set up for Tav ,I know you don't like him but stop making stuff up
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Course its set up for him, he spends so much of the game attacking that our RW is in his pocket or behind him, Goldson is covering RB & Lundstram covering at CB

Its just a lot more obvious now that Tav & Goldson have both lost a yard of pace & Ryan Jack is always injured, he's not there to cover the RB area so more people are getting pulled out of position to cover and the shape of our team is terrible (which is a whole different debate)
Colinrfc2 said:
We are the joint 2nd most successful team in the league from corners
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Based on a % of corners taken? Or total? as we take twice as many if not more than everyone else bar celtic
 
TriggersBroom said:
I’d turn that around and say I don’t think you’re getting it.

Despite your patronising post, I’ve been going to Ibrox and away games for just over 30 years so I’ve seen us under Walter during the highs, and seen the lows under PLG, McLeish in his final year and the more recent decade or so of utter shite.

IMO Tav would have been our first choice right back in any Rangers team from the early 90’s.

Do you genuinely believe that replacing Tav will result in us hoovering up every other trophy?

As I’ve said repeatedly, the biggest issue IMO is the lack of quality throughout our squad and first 11 in particular.

Realistically what players would anyone be sad to see leaving in the summer? For me only Butland falls into that category.

Players I’d like to keep as I think they’d be better amongst better quality of players / have a future would be Sima, Diomande, Raskin.

We require major surgery in the team and again, I think right back is way down the pecking order.
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I've been going a lot longer than that mate.
Just leave it, don't mean to sound patronising but you just are not getting it.
You've got some opinion of tav though, deary me.
Off the top of my head though he is nowhere near Gary Stevens or Alan Hutton.
 
DonDraper said:
When did he say he?
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"Whenever anybody puts a bit of pressure on us in Scotland or gets in our face it seems to affect us too much.

"At the start of the season teams dropped off us and we were scoring four or five goals, but now they smell blood straight away and put us under pressure.

"We are not good enough domestically to react to that."

4 years ago an nothing has changed.
 
JW1988 said:
Why lie on the internet?
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"Whenever anybody puts a bit of pressure on us in Scotland or gets in our face it seems to affect us too much.

"At the start of the season teams dropped off us and we were scoring four or five goals, but now they smell blood straight away and put us under pressure.

"We are not good enough domestically to react to that."

It’s what he said. You could say he was saying it’s in games, but it’s still pressure and came at the same time Kent was saying we preferred to be underdogs.
 
Orange Peel said:
I've been going a lot longer than that mate.
Just leave it, don't mean to sound patronising but you just are not getting it.
You've got some opinion of tav though, deary me.
Off the top of my head though he is nowhere near Gary Stevens or Alan Hutton.
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Stevens I’d agree with but I’d have Tavernier over Hutton.
 
FirstToFifty said:
"Whenever anybody puts a bit of pressure on us in Scotland or gets in our face it seems to affect us too much.

"At the start of the season teams dropped off us and we were scoring four or five goals, but now they smell blood straight away and put us under pressure.

"We are not good enough domestically to react to that."

4 years ago an nothing has changed.
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He's still learning.
 
FirstToFifty said:
"Whenever anybody puts a bit of pressure on us in Scotland or gets in our face it seems to affect us too much.

"At the start of the season teams dropped off us and we were scoring four or five goals, but now they smell blood straight away and put us under pressure.

"We are not good enough domestically to react to that."

It’s what he said. You could say he was saying it’s in games, but it’s still pressure and came at the same time Kent was saying we preferred to be underdogs.
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"He told us himself he can't handle pressure"

Point out in that quote where he says he can't handle pressure?

He is talking about the team being pressed. We let it knock us off our gameplan.
If there's any player in this team that copes with "pressure" its Tavernier. You don't dig your team out of a hole more times that I can count without being able to cope with pressure.
 
FirstToFifty said:
"Whenever anybody puts a bit of pressure on us in Scotland or gets in our face it seems to affect us too much.

"At the start of the season teams dropped off us and we were scoring four or five goals, but now they smell blood straight away and put us under pressure.

"We are not good enough domestically to react to that."

4 years ago an nothing has changed.
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I still don’t understand why this and the Goldson quote are brought up.

They were both correct. Neither were saying the attitude/inability was correct and neither were saying they were happy with it.
 
SPRINGBOIG LOYAL said:
Do you not think Sterling could do a job either in CM or RB?
Click to expand...

Sterling has started RB for us once, a nervy 2-1 win at home to Morton, he was rotten and one of three taken off at 0-1 on 57 mins, we equalised 3 minutes later

he has started at LB for us 3 times, a defeat and draw with celtic, draw with Dundee.

For me he isn’t a full back, unless you want to purely match up pace for pace against someone. He is more suited to breaking up play in the middle of the park.
 
tazzabear said:
Stevens I’d agree with but I’d have Tavernier over Hutton.
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OK.
Alan Hutton, 50 odd caps for Scotland, played in Premiership for at least 10 years with at least 2 massive clubs. Sold for huge fees.
James Tavernier, played in championship for tinpot clubs and zero caps I would guess.
Captain of Rangers and no interest from England.
Everton came in and bought a young right back off us for mega money.
Says it all I think.
Never checked any facts or figures there so hopefully fairly accurate.
 
NFTG said:
The point is it’s not solely about finance, evidenced by this very season when a number of those sides have also beat Celtic, and they were there to be taken advantage of.

Sport does revert from finance on occasion, and should have done a lot more than it has with us in recent years when we have often fell on the wrong side of it

Sides with far less budget have often beat us in Cups, you’d think we’d just get knocked out by Celtic every season but that’s not been the case.

Let the attacking players hit a few penalties a year then we can all retrospectively look at their numbers and let that be the cause of revising views on them then if they don’t have enough goal contributions.

If Cantwell bangs in a few he’d have apparently went from a so so year to a fantastic year based just on that.
Click to expand...
I never mentioned finances once, what are you on about?

My point was we keep lining up with attackers that don't contribute in any meaningful attacking capacity. We play with wide players and no10s that don't score goals. Wright, Matondo, Cantwell, Lawrence, McCausland, Silva and Dowell have just over a dozen league goals between them.

Sima has 11 by himself.
 
Orange Peel said:
OK.
Alan Hutton, 50 odd caps for Scotland, played in Premiership for at least 10 years with at least 2 massive clubs. Sold for huge fees.
James Tavernier, played in championship for tinpot clubs and zero caps I would guess.
Captain of Rangers and no interest from England.
Everton came in and bought a young right back off us for mega money.
Says it all I think.
Never checked any facts or figures there so hopefully fairly accurate.
Click to expand...
Not when playing for Rangers.
I’ve no idea if he’d developed the way he did if he’d stayed with us.
 
JW1988 said:
"He told us himself he can't handle pressure"

Point out in that quote where he says he can't handle pressure?

He is talking about the team being pressed. We let it knock us off our gameplan.
If there's any player in this team that copes with "pressure" its Tavernier. You don't dig your team out of a hole more times that I can count without being able to cope with pressure.
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"Whenever anybody puts a bit of pressure on us in Scotland or gets in our face it seems to affect us too much.

"At the start of the season teams dropped off us and we were scoring four or five goals, but now they smell blood straight away and put us under pressure.

"We are not good enough domestically to react to that."

That’s not talking about just pressing. That’s talking about folding under the pressure domestically.

Why does he only say specifically Scotland? He says it because that’s where the pressure is on to go dominate the game. As soon as the opponent look up for it, they struggle. Still the same.

That pressure was off a lot in Europe and that’s why they were able to deal with much stronger pressing teams.

On its own you could argue that, but when it was the same season Kent was talking about underdogs and how they have ‘tension’ when not underdogs, you’ve got to look at who is setting that mentality in the team.
 
Davie Weir said:
I still don’t understand why this and the Goldson quote are brought up.

They were both correct. Neither were saying the attitude/inability was correct and neither were saying they were happy with it.
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It’s brought up because that was 4 years ago and it seems to be the same issues.

Pressure off so they go on a run, become slight favourites for the league, then they can’t handle Ross County putting some pressure on and crumble.
 
FirstToFifty said:
It’s brought up because that was 4 years ago and it seems to be the same issues.

Pressure off so they go on a run, become slight favourites for the league, then they can’t handle Ross County putting some pressure on and crumble.
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Yes, the issues are still there.

But why is it a stick to beat Tav with? Our most consistent player over the years.
 
Chocolateleftfoot said:
I never mentioned finances once, what are you on about?

My point was we keep lining up with attackers that don't contribute in any meaningful attacking capacity. We play with wide players and no10s that don't score goals. Wright, Matondo, Cantwell, Lawrence, McCausland, Silva and Dowell have just over a dozen league goals between them.

Sima has 11 by himself.
Click to expand...

You are implying that, how do Celtic have the best squad? It is because they spend more money yes? Because that aside it is open to question if they do have the best squad, first 11, maybe, but their squad is terrible.

Counter to your goals point is this.

Cantwell, Sima, Dessers and Matondo have 34 league goals between

Kyogo, O Riley, Maeda and Palma have 35 league goals between them and the likes of Kuhn, Holm and Forrest aren't adding much to that total.

If any of the Rangers players were hitting penalties, give it to Lawrence, Cantwell, Dessers, any of them, they would have 46 league goals between them

Our attackers numbers are in part skewed by a right back hitting penalties. If Cantwell had 17 goals, 11 of which were penalties, does he then meet the criteria and Tav is all of a sudden a less relevant force? You have to accept that for attackers numbers to improve massively Tavernier will need to score less goals
 
Tav as an attacker and penalty taker then no complaints. But as a captain and defender big issues.

How many times under his leadership have players went into down tools mode. Surely as the captain he’d be on at them to remind them their not here to play for a manager but to play for the club so park the shite to one side and give your best.
 
FirstToFifty said:
It’s brought up because that was 4 years ago and it seems to be the same issues.

Pressure off so they go on a run, become slight favourites for the league, then they can’t handle Ross County putting some pressure on and crumble.
Click to expand...
Once it's mathematically impossible to win the league they'll be world beaters again.
Long suffering fans have had enough.
I was still behind them until yesterday but why bother if they aren't even fighting?
 
Davie Weir said:
Yes, the issues are still there.

But why is it a stick to beat Tav with? Our most consistent player over the years.
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I don’t deny that with Tav, he scores goals definitely, we as a team don’t score more goals, but he scores.

People need to understand you can be a good football player, who performs well individually and still have a weak mentality when it comes to being dominant and winning leagues.

When that is your captain and leadership group, blaming you for his constant mistakes, it hits the full group.
 
Angrybluebear said:
Sterling has started RB for us once, a nervy 2-1 win at home to Morton, he was rotten and one of three taken off at 0-1 on 57 mins, we equalised 3 minutes later

he has started at LB for us 3 times, a defeat and draw with celtic, draw with Dundee.

For me he isn’t a full back, unless you want to purely match up pace for pace against someone. He is more suited to breaking up play in the middle of the park.
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I don’t think you can base his capabilities as a full back on less than an hour against Morton and playing some games out of position because of injuries.

Maybe centre mid would be his best position for us but he was signed as a right back and that’s where he mostly played coming through at Chelsea and loan spells at Stoke, Blackpool I believe.
 
BR84 said:
Course its set up for him, he spends so much of the game attacking that our RW is in his pocket or behind him, Goldson is covering RB & Lundstram covering at CB

Its just a lot more obvious now that Tav & Goldson have both lost a yard of pace & Ryan Jack is always injured, he's not there to cover the RB area so more people are getting pulled out of position to cover and the shape of our team is terrible (which is a whole different debate)


Based on a % of corners taken? Or total? as we take twice as many if not more than everyone else bar celtic
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You should check some heat maps for our full backs. You might be surprised to see the left backs is almost identical most weeks.
 
TriggersBroom said:
genuinely baffling.

How anyone could watch tonight and believe Tav is the problem is beyond me.

We had a woeful midfield 3 that Dundee walked through at times which happened at the weekend as well. Lundstram and Lawrence barely got beyond jogging pace tonight.

We have multiple forward players who struggle to create and stick the ball in the net. In January many felt we needed to sign a goalscorer and that’s now coming back to bite us on the arse.

Silva, Matondo are useless. Roofe is like an old cripple and Dessers is just woeful.

Goldson and Souttar are a bombscare partnership.

Tav has flaws, no arguments there. If he didn’t then he’d be playing at a far higher level.

But the amount of unfair criticism towards him is genuinely baffling.

“He goes hiding” - utter shite. No matter how bad he’s playing or the team is playing, he always shows for the ball and tries to drive us forward.

“He’s a bottle merchant” - utter shite. Lost count how many times he’s stepped up in pressure situations/moments in massive games to deliver an assist/free kick/goal. Hardly the signs of a bottler.

“he’s no a captain” - two world class players and captains in GVB and SG sung his praises as a captain and player but what do they know. All because he doesn’t scream and shout and grab teammates by the throat on the park.

He was our biggest contributor in reaching the Europa league final, top scorer in the competition scoring many pressure penalties including leading in the shootout with the first penalty. Almost won the thing had it not been for Ramsay.

Stepped up in the league cup final and regularly in the 55 season.

The trophy count since he’s been here hasn’t been good enough but it’s a collective team issue rather than a Tav issue. And the first few years he was here is hardly a stick to beat him with given the shite surrounding him and the circus we had in the dugout until Gerrard arrived.

If fans genuinely believe getting rid of Tav will result in our defence being solid and midfield/strikers making up Tav’s numbers and us winning everything in sight, it’s delusional IMO. And only when he leaves will we realise just how much he brings to the table.

We’ve far bigger problems in the team to address than Tav.
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Maybe because he’s one of the very very few who will actually own up to errors ?

Him , Souttar , Balogun , Lundstram are the ones I can think of who have have I missed any ?
 
BR84 said:
Course its set up for him, he spends so much of the game attacking that our RW is in his pocket or behind him, Goldson is covering RB & Lundstram covering at CB

Its just a lot more obvious now that Tav & Goldson have both lost a yard of pace & Ryan Jack is always injured, he's not there to cover the RB area so more people are getting pulled out of position to cover and the shape of our team is terrible (which is a whole different debate)


Based on a % of corners taken? Or total? as we take twice as many if not more than everyone else bar celtic
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The team isn't set up to help Tav at the detriment to the team as a whole that's not true
More to do with the fact it's him that stands up to be counted and never hides even if he's not playing well

I don't think our corners are great but it's not as though every team is scoring loads of goals from them and I haven't looked at how many corners we get but I would imagine it's more than anyone else
 
Orange Peel said:
Best one yet, comparing tav to Steven Gerrard, a world class player and captain.
Lol.
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So who do we get to compare him with?

Not allowed to compare him to Greig, despite a similar trophy haul over a 9 year period, not allowed to compare him to Gerrard despite Gerrard also winning not a lot considering his talent level (7 top level trophies in 17 years at Liverpool, none of them league titles).

Why don't you lot give us the list of who we are allowed to draw comparisons with.
 
I like him but his bottle goes just as quickly as the rest of them. Ideally a captain sets the tone.
 
SaulBearenson said:
So who do we get to compare him with?

Not allowed to compare him to Greig, despite a similar trophy haul over a 9 year period, not allowed to compare him to Gerrard despite Gerrard also winning not a lot considering his talent level (7 top level trophies in 17 years at Liverpool, none of them league titles).

Why don't you lot give us the list of who we are allowed to draw comparisons with.
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You lot?
Why does he need to be compared?
He's had his time and needs to be away in the summer.
Been at the heart of too many failures.
 
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