Danny Wilde
Well-Known Member
By which criteria you judge if a manager is poor?Wasting potential of young players is a completely different thing to being a poor manager?
Ok.
By which criteria you judge if a manager is poor?Wasting potential of young players is a completely different thing to being a poor manager?
Ok.
We have plenty of examples in football over the years of player released at young age and then established themselves as professional players or even playing as amateurs and becoming professionals without never having any proper coaching.
To blame McCoist for wasting careers is laughable as none of the youngsters of 2013 has done anything that is remotely enough to prove that let them go was the wrong decision.
Telfer went to Dundee Utd and did absolutely nothing in what was probably a more professional set up in your view.
The boy was not behaving himself and needed to moveJohn Fleck was one we maybe should have persevered with and tried to keep.
This thread is about young players we did let go and then regret it and none of the above are amongst them.Kane Hemmings, went on to score 21 goals in the top flight of Scottish football.
Kal Naismith has found a perfectly respectable career in England
Andy Little, was scoring goals for us, and had scored goals for us in the top flight in Scotland.
Barrie McKay was someone who showed to be capable of performing at the top level in Scottish Football.
These are just a sample size, others did fail, they wouldn't all succeed, but they deserved a far, far greater chance to fail.
They didn't have to be the standard we are now, they have to help us get promoted to the top flight in Scotland, and then offer a bit of depth in the top flight, that would have been perfectly fine and was more than achievable, as was shown when a Hearts side with a young profile utterly mugged us
The issue here is not just the players, it is the options played instead of them, I mean the youngsters of 2013 if only they could have hit those, high, unforgettable heights those signed that window did
How could we dare play these players though given we simply had to play and sign the likes of Foster, Smith, Black, Sandaza and co instead for "the journey"
I would happily bet those younger players wouldn't have embarrassed to the degree others did, cost a f*ck load less doing so, and also gave us greater depth by the time a next manager did arrive when all McCall was left to work with was absolute f*cking rot.
Could be wrong but I think it was 3 consecutive early baths.This might be one of those urban legends but was he not sent off in consecutive games as a trialist/reserve?
Poor tactics, poor signings, refusal to play young players and running others into the ground to protect the highly sought after record of going undefeated in Scotland’s third tier etcBy which criteria you judge if a manager is poor?
This thread is about young players we did let go and then regret it and none of the above are amongst them.
They had, to a different degree, decent careers but none would have become a first team regular so it wasn’t the wrong choice to let them go.
We will never have evidence that playing the class of 2013 would have made the “journey” easier but there is enough evidence that we have never regretted to release these players.
Do you honestly think Ian McCall would have trusted Ross Perry or Baz Coleman to become better players with “proper” coaching?
McCoist was happy of playing Lewis McCleod or Fraser Aird so there’s enough evidence that young players were given a chance if deemed good enough.
Ian McCall played wee Murdoch for a while as a first teamer but has he turned him into a player we have regretted leaving?
We didn’t have an academy worth its name for a long time and surely never enough money to put into it during the spivs time.
McCoist should never have been our manager. He's hopeless in that capacity.What I said, was McCoists "youth policy" was f*cking repulsive, the key word in that is McCoist.
The likes of Naismith and Cole had poor attitudes, the f*cking manager had a poor attitude!
McCoist "played" young players, he chucked them in, swung them about a bit, but there was f*ck all coaching going on, he hardly "coached" the first team, some of the kids he "played" were given random out of nowhere no logic appearances.
He bombed out the likes of Little and McKay despite them playing well as quickly as he could.
The reason some of those mentioned didn't "cut the mustard" was massively in part thanks to the complete reckless abandon with which McCoist guided their careers TBH.
Lets not get as fit as we can, lets get fitter than part time sides
Lets not work on tactics, lets play darts
Lets not question players standards and ethics, lets play Ian Black
That is every bit a f*cking repulsive environment TBH
A "coach" like McCall would have worked a decent clutch of players throw the ranks with him and took them to the table by the time we were promoted, would they have been world beaters, no, would they have had to be? No, they would have had to have been competent slightly talented players to manage the wants and demands being asked of them.
Two examples, Andy Little and Barrie McKay would have offered way, way way way way way way way way more than Jon Daly and Kris Boyd were by the they signed, but McCoist had to take the easy option and he generally did it every.single.time - and Jon Daly was a "successful" signing
These things were all haunting enough at the time, but the H and H McCoist years utterly floods it all back, the idea he couldn't have done more for a lot of these players is complete garbage, however "poor" most of them were is an absolute shining example of his "coaching"
Refusal to play Telfer, Perry, Gasparotto, Hegarty? As of 20 of April 2014 MacLeod had started 20 times over the season, Aird 15, Crawford 10; maybe it was a case of not having enough good players to play.Poor tactics, poor signings, refusal to play young players and running others into the ground to protect the highly sought after record of going undefeated in Scotland’s third tier etc
None of the four players you mention caused a ripple of dissent in the stands at the time though.Kane Hemmings, went on to score 21 goals in the top flight of Scottish football.
Kal Naismith has found a perfectly respectable career in England
Andy Little, was scoring goals for us, and had scored goals for us in the top flight in Scotland.
Barrie McKay was someone who showed to be capable of performing at the top level in Scottish Football.
These are just a sample size, others did fail, they wouldn't all succeed, but they deserved a far, far greater chance to fail. They also had to waste a few years of their development stage under McCoist
They didn't have to be the standard we are now, they had to help us get promoted to the top flight in Scotland, and then offer a bit of depth in the top flight, that would have been perfectly fine and was more than achievable, as was shown when a Hearts side with a young profile utterly mugged us
The issue here is not just the players, it is the options played instead of them, I mean the youngsters of 2013 if only they could have hit those, high, unforgettable heights those signed that window did
How could we dare play these players though given we simply had to play and sign the likes of Foster, Smith, Black, Sandaza and co instead for "the journey"
I would happily bet those younger players wouldn't have embarrassed us to the degree others did, cost a f*ck load less doing so, and also gave us greater depth by the time a next manager did arrive when all McCall was left to work with was absolute f*cking rot.
None of the four players you mention caused a ripple of dissent in the stands at the time though.
There is also the not so small a matter of the jersey being too big.
Kenny and Gordon McQueen left Ibrox the same day although big Gordon was never signedKenny Burns. Went on to win two European cups with Nottingham forest. A real hard bastard and not a bad player
I don’t recall feeling about McCoist being as bad as “despised” solely as a manager or otherwise.They did actually, they actually did because loads of people f*cking despised McCoist the manager and utterly hated what they were looking at, the premise of them did and the idea we couldn't be doing something other than we were boiled peoples f*cking piss, often.
The jersey can be too big aye.
It was too big for Ian Black, Seb Faures jersey in general was often too f*ckin big, it was too big for Ricky Foster, it was too big for Steven Smith when he returned, it was too big for Kris Boyd when he came back, it was too big for Fran Sandazza, like Faure it was always too big for Kvin Kyle, well, not always, sometimes it was tight and it really highlighted what an overweight mess he was.
But we just couldn't have achieved without them eh
They are in the context of the time and what we signed during that time TBH
I f*cking really regret watching the sides McCoist did put on the park during the "McCoist years" I regret the Championship season and think a lot of the kids he f*cked off would have offered more, we weren't going on to "better" during that time, the players I mentioned even while playing at Dun -f*cking -dee where doing "better" than most of what we had on offer during those years.
A 21 goal SPL forward becomes a first team player for us
Barrie McKay literally did become a first team player for us ,despite of, rather than because of McCoist.
I said in my last post, I don't think every, single, player would work, no coach would have managed that, they would have had a far greater success and hit rate, and at least f*cking made the effort to a greater extent than McCoist did though.
Stuart, not Ian, played Murdoch during his time in charge yes, McCalls time in charge of us was totally destined to fail given who he took over from and the utter state of the squad, Murdoch was one of the better performers during his time in charge, which only validated why in the name of f*ck we had wasted our time with Ian Black.
We didn't really need a fully invested academy during the Spivs, we just need a competent coach to at least attempt to try and coach people, rather than simply burn cash at every single turn and waste hours of what could have been some form of developmental football on absolute f*
They are in the context of the time and what we signed during that time TBH
I f*cking really regret watching the sides McCoist did put on the park during the "McCoist years" I regret the Championship season and think a lot of the kids he f*cked off would have offered more, we weren't going on to "better" during that time, the players I mentioned even while playing at Dun -f*cking -dee where doing "better" than most of what we had on offer during those years.
A 21 goal SPL forward becomes a first team player for us
Barrie McKay literally did become a first team player for us ,despite
It’s still all hypothetical, you will never have enough evidence to support your view I’m afraidThey did actually, they actually did because loads of people f*cking despised McCoist the manager and utterly hated what they were looking at, the premise of them did and the idea we couldn't be doing something other than we were boiled peoples f*cking piss, often.
The jersey can be too big aye.
It was too big for Ian Black, Seb Faures jersey in general was often too f*ckin big, it was too big for Ricky Foster, it was too big for Steven Smith when he returned, it was too big for Kris Boyd when he came back, it was too big for Fran Sandazza, like Faure it was always too big for Kvin Kyle, well, not always, sometimes it was tight and it really highlighted what an overweight mess he was.
But we just couldn't have achieved without them eh
I don’t recall feeling about McCoist being as bad as “despised” solely as a manager or otherwise.
Apart from that though are you agreeing that when it came to the quality of the players you mention, there was nobody overly unhappy.?
Apart from that, your post is just another anti McCoist, the manager, rant which probably deserves a thread of its own.
If there hasn’t already been one.
It’s still all hypothetical, you will never have enough evidence to support your view I’m afraid
Post deletedYou are in an absolute minority on that TBH
People were irked by how poorly they could see the situation being managed and how little innovative or different was being done to try and improve or change the situation
McCoist and his ability as a manager massively entwines with youth, but sure start a McCoist the manager thread and let the bile pour, I would expect most on here are listening to the McCoist years and being reminded how f*cking awful it was and how shocking his "efforts" were
I thinking only of the exaggeration here.
Post deleted.Aye you are bang on mate, fans were chanting his name leaving Easter Road after the Raith game
Can you desist from turning this thread into a McCoist bashing one.Raith v Rangers,
Ramsdens Cup Final - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/26807030
Rangers v Queen of the South
Ramsdens Cup - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/19629218#:~:text=Rangers made a shock exit,for Barrie McKay to level.
Forfar v Rangers - League Cup
Forfar Athletic 2-1 Rangers (aet)
Forfar Atheltic's Gavin Swankie fires an extra-time winner to send Rangers out of the Scottish League Cup.www.bbc.co.uk
I can go on....
These aren't "hypothetical" and do support my evidence, it couldn't actually be worse than that given the tools McCoist had at his disposal at that time to coach and develop football players v the sides he was coming up against
And sure I have "moved on" but it is still something that can be referenced and spoken about TBH, it wasn't stressful, it didn't even stir that level of emotion, it was just sh*te TBH, nor as stressful as it seems quoting a post is for you TBF!!
To be fair to McCoist, he was actually the first manager to drop him back to that 'No. 4' role. Admittedly not very often but he did stick him there first.John Fleck suffered from the mentality that he was talented, quick and could pass the ball, therefore he was a forward.
I think the approach we’ve seen with Van Bronkhurst looking at Lundstram & Bassey in particular and moving them into slightly different positions that make best use of specific attributes may have seen Fleck moved back to do what he’s been successful at Coventry and then Sheffield United as a midfield anchor.
There was always this bit of needle between Fleck and Ally McCoist though - even before McCoist was manager there were stories of bust-ups between the two.
I don’t recall that to be fair.
Can you desist from turning this thread into a McCoist bashing one.
If you want to discuss McCoist as manager, start a new thread.
Been going regularly home and away for over 20 years and many on my supporters bus have been been going regularly twice as long.
Never once have I ever heard anyone say that they despise, or have despised McCoist.
Plenty weren't happy with him as a manager, but Ally McCoist despised by Rangers fans?
Never.
You still don’t get it and I try to explain it to you one more time.Raith v Rangers,
Ramsdens Cup Final - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/26807030
Rangers v Queen of the South
Ramsdens Cup - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/19629218#:~:text=Rangers made a shock exit,for Barrie McKay to level.
Forfar v Rangers - League Cup
Forfar Athletic 2-1 Rangers (aet)
Forfar Atheltic's Gavin Swankie fires an extra-time winner to send Rangers out of the Scottish League Cup.www.bbc.co.uk
I can go on....
These aren't "hypothetical" and do support my evidence, it couldn't actually be worse than that given the tools McCoist had at his disposal at that time to coach and develop football players v the sides he was coming up against
And sure I have "moved on" but it is still something that can be referenced and spoken about TBH, it wasn't stressful, it didn't even stir that level of emotion, it was just sh*te TBH, nor as stressful as it seems quoting a post is for you TBF!!
Wow wow wow just utter bitterness oozing out of youWhat I said, was McCoists "youth policy" was f*cking repulsive, the key word in that is McCoist.
The likes of Naismith and Cole had poor attitudes, the f*cking manager had a poor attitude!
McCoist "played" young players, he chucked them in, swung them about a bit, but there was f*ck all coaching going on, he hardly "coached" the first team, some of the kids he "played" were given random out of nowhere no logic appearances.
He bombed out the likes of Little and McKay despite them playing well as quickly as he could.
The reason some of those mentioned didn't "cut the mustard" was massively in part thanks to the complete reckless abandon with which McCoist guided their careers TBH.
Lets not get as fit as we can, lets get fitter than part time sides
Lets not work on tactics, lets play darts
Lets not question players standards and ethics, lets play Ian Black
That is every bit a f*cking repulsive environment TBH
A "coach" like McCall would have worked a decent clutch of players throw the ranks with him and took them to the table by the time we were promoted, would they have been world beaters, no, would they have had to be? No, they would have had to have been competent slightly talented players to manage the wants and demands being asked of them.
Two examples, Andy Little and Barrie McKay would have offered way, way way way way way way way way more than Jon Daly and Kris Boyd were by the they signed, but McCoist had to take the easy option and he generally did it every.single.time - and Jon Daly was a "successful" signing
These things were all haunting enough at the time, but the H and H McCoist years utterly floods it all back, the idea he couldn't have done more for a lot of these players is complete garbage, however "poor" most of them were is an absolute shining example of his "coaching"
You still don’t get it and I try to explain it to you one more time.
You mention some defeats but you can’t prove they would have been different results with the young players on the field hence tje rest of your rants is off target.
End of the story and back to the thread you’ve been quite happy to turn into an anti McCoist trade: no young players that left was missed, not even from the class of 2013.
Wow wow wow just utter bitterness oozing out of you
The fact is that without Ally I dread to think of the things that would have happened to our club. He saved our titles and supported the staff through the club.
As for his coaching, which would seem to be your main issue here, what was it that you take exception to? I assume you watched every session, drill etc and feel he didn't quite match up to Pep, Klopp or the likes
I suspect its because Ally tried to inject some morale boosting exercises to the squad that you think then makes him totally unable to drill a team
But hey, you will know so much more about coaching than Walter Smith, the man who proposed him for the job and worked with him for years
So my view is not credible as you can’t support your own with evidence?Not entirely convinced your view on this is that credible given you seemingly simply wandered through the Black, Faure and co years thinking there was no other option for us than that
So my view is not credible as you can’t support your own with evidence?
I take you were not around in the ‘80s as people should have thought Jock Wallace was a terrible coach by what was goin’ on on the pitch on a Saturday then.You realize a game on a Saturday is generally an indication of coaching during the week yeah? You seem to be trying to advocate McCoist was doing a good job coaching the side while manager, which is f*cking hilarious TBH
Despite living across the road?Not let go as much as somehow not seen
Obvious from his 1st post in this thread that was what his aim was.Can you desist from turning this thread into a McCoist bashing one.
If you want to discuss McCoist as manager, start a new thread.
Hence I specifically said, McCoist the manager
What bus out of interest? would be curios to know what their view was of McCoist the manager
Obvious from his 1st post in this thread that was what his aim was.
As I said, he wasn't popular as a manager with many.
He just wasn't despised.
He simply wasn't a good manager.
That was the common consensus with people I know.
There may have been millions different ways of this but since none of them happened, as I said, make your view hypthetic.Yeah, it's not really that credible TBH, the notion you have a simple one tracked mind of it could simply only have been done the way McCoist done it, and there was no other alternative career for a player other than that which McCoist "coached" them to, isn't that credible to me
There may have been millions different ways of this but since none of them happened, as I said, make your view hypthetic.
Players moved out and were coached in a different way but none of them has anyone on this thread regretting about not been given the chance. Well, apart you and maybe Kane Hemmings.
how popular is unpopular?
Ally "get to f*ck" for instance, that just "unpopular"?
The general reaction at Easter Road for instance, just that of someone who was "unpopular"?
I may be wrong but Telfer apart I can’t remember any of the above player denied a proper “growth environment during key stages” of their career goin’ public about it over the years.They had generally had a few years of their key development spent watching guys play darts and kick balls at their coaches arse, or watch him singing karaoke after Cup Final defeats TBF, do you think that is a growth environment during key stages of a football players career?
McCoist was a poor coach. Whether this was impacted by non-footballing matters at the club is debatable.
A different coach would likely have created a better team but too many of the youth that remained had limited ability. No youngster with genuine ambition and talent was at Ibrox during this time, they (rightly) got out.
I may be wrong but Telfer apart I can’t remember any of the above player denied a proper “growth environment during key stages” of their career goin’ public about it over the years.
Oh and it’s not ironic that the karaoke stunt made public is the main thing we remember of “young” David Templeton Ibrox career?