Jock Stein was inhumane intimidating and corrupt

Porto Loyal said:
To be honest, I think Stein is a peripheral target here - whilst he was complicit in a cover-up, those who allowed him to return are far more culpable.
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Stein could have nipped all of this in the bud if he had any sense of duty and concern for the young lads. The fact that he put the club before the lads demonstrates just how much of a degenerate of a human being he really was.
 
WC Spain 82, first match v New Zealand, Team was announced to the players and Alan Brazil is starting, that night Stein collars Brazil and asks him to give him the horse he’d heard AB was backing, Brazil refused, match day when the team sheet went up Brazil wasn’t starting.
 
fourbus said:
He was very close to Tony Queen the Bookie, and maybe closer to Tony’s wife.
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Funny things is how much he Queen in gambling debts, yet he repaid him by giving his wife some comfort

Every journo in the land knew this given Queens main shop was a haunt of the Record journalists at Anderson Quay
 
Recall that car crash in the 70s.....was it Queen and the Shanklys. Wonder what Shankly thought or knew at the time.
 
imager said:
WC Spain 82, first match v New Zealand, Team was announced to the players and Alan Brazil is starting, that night Stein collars Brazil and asks him to give him the horse he’d heard AB was backing, Brazil refused, match day when the team sheet went up Brazil wasn’t starting.
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It wasn't the World Cup, it was the England-Scotland game in June 1983, the same day as the Epsom Derby, Brazil had a tip for Teenoso in the Derby he got 33/1 odds, Stein asked Brazil to give him 33/1 on the horse, Brazil refused and Stein left him out of the game, the horse won the Derby at 9/2 favourite. Stein demonstrated his vindictiveness on Brazil simply because of a horse race.
 
bilkobear said:
I actually agree with this.
Whilst Stein cannot escape criticism, it is unfair that such a matter and the decision making surrounding it should fall upon the manager of the football team.
It is clear that this decision and the events surrounding it were fully in the remit of those above Stein, they would have discussed it, they would have better understood the ramifications and it is they who would have imposed a policy of cover-up.
Stein was just the Prod patsy given the responsibility to do his masters bidding.

Such an executive decision rests above Stein's head and it demonstrates a working-class naivety within Stein that he did not recognise at the time that he was being used whilst more sophisticated minds were distancing themselves from matters.
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I strongly disagree. If you are certain that a co-worker is a pedophile, the correct course of action is one of two things:

1. Report it to your superiors, and ensure that they report it to the authorities very quickly

2. Report it to the authorities yourself.

It is indefensible to have done what Stein did - to know that a co-worker is a pedophile, and fail to report it (or to have others report it) to the authorities.
 
SDR said:
I strongly disagree. If you are certain that a co-worker is a pedophile, the correct course of action is one of two things:

1. Report it to your superiors, and ensure that they report it to the authorities very quickly

2. Report it to the authorities yourself.

It is indefensible to have done what Stein did - to know that a co-worker is a pedophile, and fail to report it (or to have others report it) to the authorities.
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Who is defending Stein here?
 
Jock Stein yes may have been a bully but I'm sure that could be levelled at some of our managers like Struth, Wallace, Smith, Souness but would they have turned a blind eye to employees of the club involved in sexual assaults against young players at our club! Naw I don't fckn think so.
 
bilkobear said:
Good post.
Jock Stein was in football terms an autocrat, it was perhaps the reason he was so successful, and let us be in no doubt he was a fantastic football manager.
Had he came to Rangers in 1964, who would bet against it being Rangers who would have gone onto win the European Cup and not the Filth.
He was the difference, indeed, had it been Rangers who benefited from his genius back then, I believe he would have been even more successful as we had the finer set of players.
So good was Stein, he was able to alter the balance between the clubs on his own.

However, there is no doubt that the man was also a very flawed individual with a tendency to favour the football dark arts and an almost Machiavellian disposition towards the welfare of others whose personal misfortunes were cruelly swotted out of his way as he pursued his own ambitions.

His behaviour in regards to Torbett is almost so shocking that Scottish football still in thrall to his image will simply shirk from addressing it.
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I had a discussion with jimmJ Miller and Ralph Brand and both of them said had Stein been the manager of Rangers we would have been even more successful than his Celtic sides
 
Found this interesting snippet today - it's from the Celtic Wki about Stein, talking about the car crash in 76. He says (talking about the fact he considered he might not go back to celtic)

The only other time I felt like that was in 1974, when I weighed my future in football against the behaviour of certain people who call themselves Celtic fans
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Now the article's writer brings up a statement Stein made about the hooligan element at that time, but I do wonder in light of subsequent knowledge - 74 was when he kicked Torbett out

http://www.thecelticwiki.com/page/The+Car+Crash+-+How+I+Fought+Back
 
331f2ad.jpg
 
It’s the toe-curling subservience from the likes of Chick Young that gets me. The grinning gimp always refers to him as ‘Mr Stein’ then goes on to tell a story of being sent to Parkhead as a young reporter. Stein would look him up and down and shout “fcuk off” at him. Young thinks this is just marvellous and finishes off with “Mr Stein, what a character”.

Pathetic pandering to a nasty bully.
 
So, it's turning out their legend they wanted posthumously awarded a knighthood (which was strange considering they hate the UK) is actually a horrible bastard?
 
youngsy said:
Stein could have nipped all of this in the bud if he had any sense of duty and concern for the young lads. The fact that he put the club before the lads demonstrates just how much of a degenerate of a human being he really was.
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Indeed, and the vile bastard got his just rewards when his days as manager ended and the cult which he protected pumped him.
 
Over the years a man can get a legendry status because of what he won and that is what that mans legacy is based on. As a human being though and not through the public eye, it appears big fat arse was a cuunt of a man
 
Most older Bears will have heard the stories about Jock Stein at the time.

The John Hughes' claim about his behaviour on hearing his wife had a miscarriage is pretty damning, though.


However, I think it's a mistake to focus on Jock Stein re the CBC scandal. He was one of only two people at Celtic to show any concern. It also deflects from where responsibility really lies - the Celtic board, particularly Kevin Kelly and Jack McGinn. We will have to wait until the outcome of forthcoming trials but joining the dots leads only in one direction.

For years, it was said by Rangers fans that Stein was never offered a place on the Celtic board because he wasn't a Catholic. That might have been partly true but the more that emerges about the Boys Club affair and, particularly, the reappointment of Torbett, the more it seems he would have been unwelcome.

There wasn't really any need for Celtic to replace him as manager in 1978 either. It looks like they just wanted him out the club.
 
Taki said:
George Connelly, I believe. And Alex 'Candid' Cameron's wife too.
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Did George Connelly not pack in football round about that time too when the rumours were going round about his wife and stein. Seem to remember the reason put forward was that Connelly was suffering from depression. No wonder if that was going on behind his back.
 
deedle said:
Most older Bears will have heard the stories about Jock Stein at the time.

The John Hughes' claim about his behaviour on hearing his wife had a miscarriage is pretty damning, though.


However, I think it's a mistake to focus on Jock Stein re the CBC scandal. He was one of only two people at Celtic to show any concern. It also deflects from where responsibility really lies - the Celtic board, particularly Kevin Kelly and Jack McGinn. We will have to wait until the outcome of forthcoming trials but joining the dots leads only in one direction.

For years, it was said by Rangers fans that Stein was never offered a place on the Celtic board because he wasn't a Catholic. That might have been partly true but the more that emerges about the Boys Club affair and, particularly, the reappointment of Torbett, the more it seems he would have been unwelcome.

There wasn't really any need for Celtic to replace him as manager in 1978 either. It looks like they just wanted him out the club.
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Stein was the most high profile person in Scottish football when all the rumours surfaced so in that respect he was the one man who had the reputation to be listened to and the full authority to open up about this scandal.
His standing in the game back then was such that he was in a very responsible position of power within that club, his conduct was and still is indefensible, he had a duty of care, he failed in that duty and is as equally responsible as Kelly, McGinn and the rest of them.
 
youngsy said:
Stein was the most high profile person in Scottish football when all the rumours surfaced so in that respect he was the one man who had the reputation to be listened to and the full authority to open up about this scandal.
His standing in the game back then was such that he was in a very responsible position of power within that club, his conduct was and still is indefensible, he had a duty of care, he failed in that duty and is as equally responsible as Kelly, McGinn and the rest of them.
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In other scandals of this nature, countless people who had heard rumours or been told by victims were reluctant to contact police. That doesn't excuse them, but often they were in a difficult position. Stein would almost certainly have paid with his job. Even nowadays, despite proclamations to the contrary whistle-blowing is usually discouraged.

It's just my opinion, but the real issue here relates to Kelly and McGinn and making it about Jock Stein deflects from that. He had died by the time Torbett was reappointed.
 
dbear said:
“We were on a post-season tour to America in 1966 and my first wife, Mary, was pregnant at the time,” he said. “I used to phone home every five or six days.

“Then I bumped into the sports reporter Ken Gallacher one morning and he said: 'Sorry to hear your news.’ I didn’t know what he was talking about until he told me that Mary had had a miscarriage four days earlier.

“Jock knew but he hadn’t told me, so make your own mind up about that. When I asked him about it, he said: 'Ach, what could you do about it, anyway? You’re here and she’s there.’ ”

What a disgusting secret to keep and way to treat people. A trait if you like.
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That is actually sickening
 
dbear said:
“We were on a post-season tour to America in 1966 and my first wife, Mary, was pregnant at the time,” he said. “I used to phone home every five or six days.

“Then I bumped into the sports reporter Ken Gallacher one morning and he said: 'Sorry to hear your news.’ I didn’t know what he was talking about until he told me that Mary had had a miscarriage four days earlier.

“Jock knew but he hadn’t told me, so make your own mind up about that. When I asked him about it, he said: 'Ach, what could you do about it, anyway? You’re here and she’s there.’ ”

What a disgusting secret to keep and way to treat people. A trait if you like.
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Thats fuckin shocking!
 
deedle said:
In other scandals of this nature, countless people who had heard rumours or been told by victims were reluctant to contact police. That doesn't excuse them, but often they were in a difficult position. Stein would almost certainly have paid with his job. Even nowadays, despite proclamations to the contrary whistle-blowing is usually discouraged.

It's just my opinion, but the real issue here relates to Kelly and McGinn and making it about Jock Stein deflects from that. He had died by the time Torbett was reappointed.
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Old reports often said this.

New reports (Mark Daly) say Torbett came back in 1978, only four years after he (Torbett) had left.
 
He must have known what was going on so as far as l am concerned he was complient,and only interested in his own image
 
SDR said:
I strongly disagree. If you are certain that a co-worker is a pedophile, the correct course of action is one of two things:

1. Report it to your superiors, and ensure that they report it to the authorities very quickly

2. Report it to the authorities yourself.

It is indefensible to have done what Stein did - to know that a co-worker is a pedophile, and fail to report it (or to have others report it) to the authorities.
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I sniffed out a peedo in my work a good 10 yr ago. There was something not right with the guy from the off, he flared up one day and went off his nut at basically nothing. That sent me to the internet and i goigled the shit out the cunts name, and there it was he done 2 yr for grooming and molesting a wee lassie.
Told my bosses and he was sacked by the end of the week.
Fucking disgraceful shameless tramp was pleading for his job, "i only wanted to be normal"..... did ye aye.
 
Dofek said:
Did George Connelly not pack in football round about that time too when the rumours were going round about his wife and stein. Seem to remember the reason put forward was that Connelly was suffering from depression. No wonder if that was going on behind his back.
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He did suffer from depression but I think this is separate to Stein's affair with his wife. Stein was a regular visitor to the home, apparently, to help George with his problems and, I guess, ended up comforting his wife as well. Nice.
 
deedle said:
In other scandals of this nature, countless people who had heard rumours or been told by victims were reluctant to contact police. That doesn't excuse them, but often they were in a difficult position. Stein would almost certainly have paid with his job. Even nowadays, despite proclamations to the contrary whistle-blowing is usually discouraged.

It's just my opinion, but the real issue here relates to Kelly and McGinn and making it about Jock Stein deflects from that. He had died by the time Torbett was reappointed.
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Agree with you about Kelly and McGinn but according to the Mark Daly article earlier in the week Torbett came back in in 1978 the year Stein left although the details are vague.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-4461393

"Torbett had two stints at the Boys Club, the first from 1966 to 1974.
He returned to the Boys Club in about 1978 and stayed until a series of Daily Record stories revealed abuse claims against him in 1996."
 
deedle said:
Most older Bears will have heard the stories about Jock Stein at the time.

The John Hughes' claim about his behaviour on hearing his wife had a miscarriage is pretty damning, though.


However, I think it's a mistake to focus on Jock Stein re the CBC scandal. He was one of only two people at Celtic to show any concern. It also deflects from where responsibility really lies - the Celtic board, particularly Kevin Kelly and Jack McGinn. We will have to wait until the outcome of forthcoming trials but joining the dots leads only in one direction.

For years, it was said by Rangers fans that Stein was never offered a place on the Celtic board because he wasn't a Catholic. That might have been partly true but the more that emerges about the Boys Club affair and, particularly, the reappointment of Torbett, the more it seems he would have been unwelcome.

There wasn't really any need for Celtic to replace him as manager in 1978 either. It looks like they just wanted him out the club.
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I think you make lots of leaps here, Deedle, and none of them really work.

Those who knew him said he suffered physically (and probably mentally) from the car crash that nearly killed him in 1975. Rangers had won 3 of the previous 4 titles and could be said to have the momentum. Celtic had a truly dreadful 1977-78 culminating in not even qualifying for Europe. You might argue that he was owed some loyalty by them but, having read several Stein biographies including the official one with Ken Gallagher, there is no surprise by him or his inner circle that his time at Celtic was up. There was, however, shock that he wasn't offered a place on the board. Stein's wife stated she was told by Lady Kelly that Stein would never get a seat on the board. I don't think this is related to the Boys Club but is related to his professed religion.
 
deedle said:
In other scandals of this nature, countless people who had heard rumours or been told by victims were reluctant to contact police. That doesn't excuse them, but often they were in a difficult position. Stein would almost certainly have paid with his job. Even nowadays, despite proclamations to the contrary whistle-blowing is usually discouraged.

It's just my opinion, but the real issue here relates to Kelly and McGinn and making it about Jock Stein deflects from that. He had died by the time Torbett was reappointed.
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Stein may well have paid with his job but at the end of the day he still had a duty of care which he did not uphold and whether Kelly, McGinn and others were complicit in a cover up does not in any way excuse or exonerate Stein because as i said previously he was the most high profile figure in Scottish football and indeed maybe in the UK and as such his reputation would probably have been enhanced if he had initiated an investigation into the whole disgraceful and obscene wrongdoings.

He is as much as complicit in a cover up as anyone, maybe more so considering his position. Stein has no defence whatsoever in this criminality.
 
I was sickened to read that about Stein. The fact he kept the loss of Hughes baby from him. To be honest that's bang out of order
 
The more you find out about Stein the man, the more you think he was at the club best suited to him.
A bit like the chicken and egg, did he become a rancid evil classless subhuman because he was at Celtic, or did Celtic want him because he was a rancid evil classless subhuman.
 
benamara bear said:
Agree with you about Kelly and McGinn but according to the Mark Daly article earlier in the week Torbett came back in in 1978 the year Stein left although the details are vague.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-4461393

"Torbett had two stints at the Boys Club, the first from 1966 to 1974.
He returned to the Boys Club in about 1978 and stayed until a series of Daily Record stories revealed abuse claims against him in 1996."
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Sorry, got that wrong, although reappointing him just after Stein left looks awful.
 
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