There is no legitimate case for sacking Steven Gerrard

Drumchapel-Bear said:
King has explained his reasoning around appointing Gerrard. We spent 6 months searching and no outstanding candidates with experience were available that got the juices flowing.
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The next appointment didn't need to get the juices flowing.

A dull, pragmatic manager with miles on the clock was the way to go. The time to take risks is over.

It's also probably right to acknowledge the board's absolutely abysmal managerial appointment history, from the clusterfuck of Warburton's firing to the failed approach for McInnes to the continued reign of Murty to the logic-defying appointment of Pedro.
 
ClockworkOrange said:
Why worry about performances like yesterday's though, mate? For some people that 90 minutes of repetitive, clueless shite was a sign of progress.
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One of the objectives was to become more consistent. We've failed in that department.

Looking at our fixtures between now and the end of the season, I'm concerned. Celtic (a) Hearts (h) and Motherwell (a) before the split, then 5 more matches agaisnt teams we have struggled against.

People can't say it's only internet supporters because half time, full time both on Tuesday and yesterday saw the support unleash their fury with boos. The support are becoming restless and I'm not surprised as it's simply not been good enough.

Was I excited about Steven Gerrard. Yes and no and I said so at the time.

Appointing an under 18's youth coach was a ridiculous decision after all we had gone through, where the squad was at and on the back of McCoist, Warburton, Caixinha and Murty. We needed a manager with experience and certain qualities, instead we got a rookie with no experience of management or shaping a squad.

On the other hand, Steven Gerrard, a footballing icon, world class player in his day, captain, leader. An exciting prospect.

Sadly the excitement has long gone and we are back to the struggling, turgid, toothless, one paced, predictable scrap we've been served up over the last few years.
 
Drumchapel-Bear said:
Indeed. 0 wins in 5 wouldn't be good enough but again, in the grand scheme of things the club are on target to achieve it's goals from this season outwith winning a domestic cup.

People are nit picking at certain stats to suit their agenda ie how many times have we beaten Killie, Hibs and Aberdeen? That would only be a big problem if we were sitting 3rd or 4th in the league.

Too many of our fans are basing their hissy fits on simple stats and numbers. It's not black and white. We have simply drawn far too many games this season that we should have won. The mentally challengeds have won their last three league games with injury time winners, a 6 point swing.

The margins are fine.
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I agree with you and we are on the same page but you are talking about a support that are starving for success and have left rationality behind years ago.

We could, quite conceivably, soon be at a situation where you have a record of something like 1 win in 7 or 8 - it did not even get that bad results wise under Pedro or Murty.

In the next 8 games he simply has to win at least 4 and scrape a few draws from somewhere - you are right to mention the fine margins but it's also not unfair to point out the record against the top 6 teams and have huge doubts about whether he'll be able to do that.
 
He shouldn't be sacked, but the majority of us would not have been happy with our current position if asked at the start of the season. A lot of fans thought we would win the league, or at least still be challenging come the split. Those who didn't think the league was feasible this year expected at least to win a cup.
 
Drumchapel-Bear said:
In any profession, you are set annual goals and targets which you are judged on at the end of your working year (or season with regards to football). When Steven Gerrard was appointed manager in the summer by Dave King, he would have been set certain goals/targets for the season - some being Non Negotiable and some Desirable. We can speculate what those goals might have been, we know that a desirable goal was King wanted Europa League Qualification but Gerrard didn't think we were ready for it at the time (he mentioned this in an interview). I would have thought Non Negotiable goals would have been finishing a clear 2nd in the league, beating Celtic and perhaps winning a Cup would have been somewhere between desirable/non negotiable.

If you started a poll on here during the summer and said the following will happen this season:

- Europa League Qualification
- Beating Celtic
- Clear 2nd in the league

Most people would have been happy with that for Gerrard's first season (no matter what they say now). For me, the only thing he has failed in so far is being papped out of both cups before the final stage but if you are looking at it from a goals perspective, he has only failed in 1/4 goals, so I would really love to hear what the actual case is for sacking the guy? Winning the title in his first season would not have been an expectation for this season.

If you take a step back and look at things objectively, it has been a decent first season for him. Imo you are mental if you want him sacked right now.

Now, before people start piling in about our win record against Killie/Aberdeen/Hibs this season, it is pretty poor, what I have posted above doesn't mean that I am happy with the games against them this season. Both things are not mutually exclusive. Would people rather we got a couple of wins against The Sheep this season like Murty done last season but ended up finishing 3rd? Of course you wouldn't. I couldn't tell you off the top of my head how many times we failed to beat these teams during the seasons we won titles growing up, because at the end of the day it's all about winning titles at Rangers. As I have mentioned previously, in our route back to being top dogs there is a process we need to go through which involves us becoming clear best of the rest (which we are now, irrespective of records against individual teams - we are 8 points clear of 3rd). The next step is making a realistic challenge for the title - that needs to come next season (and I believe it will). Most people would have been happy with that last summer as well.

When Juventus were demoted from Serie A, it took them 4/5 seasons to win the title again after being promoted and what they went through was nowhere near as bad as us in terms of players and revenue streams etc lost. We have no divine right to just come right back up and win this title right away just because we are Rangers, it is a process and we are on track. The next step in the process has been made this season with all the goals I mentioned above being met, next season is all about kicking on and making a proper push now. The manager knows what we need, he continually mentions the final 3rd and the quality etc.

It's time for deep breaths and calm heads.
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My sentiments exactly mate
 
stick or twist?
I was in the doubter category from the start.
I said that unless we'd spent 20+mil' by the end of the 2nd window he would have no chance of any success.
9 months in and I am still in the doubter category.
I still think we need to be spending 20+ mil' for next season's team to have any chance to challenge.
Watching the season unfold/unravel, I remain unconvinced the Gerrard is that man to hand a 20 mil' rebuild check for next season
 
ClockworkOrange said:
The next appointment didn't need to get the juices flowing.

A dull, pragmatic manager with miles on the clock was the way to go. The time to take risks is over.

It's also probably right to acknowledge the board's absolutely abysmal managerial appointment history, from the clusterfuck of Warburton's firing to the failed approach for McInnes to the continued reign of Murty to the logic-defying appointment of Pedro.
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The fans (FF) couldn't agree on a manager during our search. All the dull, pragmatic managers under the sun were mentioned and half of the fan base didn't want them so they would have been right up against it straight away.
 
Leif Erikson said:
Where have you seen this?

I spend more time on here than I care to admit and haven't seen anyone call for his sacking. The OP is countering a nonexistent argument.
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There was a thread immediately after the game that was chopped. More than a few saying he had to go. One numpty even said he's only ever experienced 1 title challenge in his life so shouldn't have been appointed.
 
Drumchapel-Bear said:
The fans (FF) couldn't agree on a manager during our search. All the dull, pragmatic managers under the sun were mentioned and half of the fan base didn't want them so they would have been right up against it straight away.
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They could, actually. There were daily threads emphasising the need to pursue experience. Every single manager linked with us at the time was experienced. What manager best characterised that experience is another story, but for once the fans were unanimous.

Right up against it from the fans? Are you suggesting that the same fans who gave a rookie a lot of support wouldn't have been behind the appointment of another manager because he wasn't who they wanted? Or that the board were influenced by the results of a poll on an internet forum?
 
ClockworkOrange said:
The biggest risk is that we simply don't know whether he can bring us success.

We're taking a risk that he's the man who can take us forward when there's no evidence for us to go on.

He may well be the man - he may not - but to take another colossal risk is so irresponsible and reckless it's painful.
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Which risk-free, affordable experienced manager who wants to work in Scotland, do you recommend?
 
The Lone Sniper said:
Which risk-free, affordable experienced manager who wants to work in Scotland do you recommend?
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I don't know - but the answer to our problems wasn't to veer drastically in the opposite direction and appoint an unknown quantity after years of similarly profiled managers failing to bring us any success.
 
Drumchapel-Bear said:
- Clear 2nd in the league
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The league isn’t over yet.

Given our embarrassing record against other teams in the top 6 (that’s 6 wins from 19 in all comps now) and our ‘form’ it would not surprise me at all if the current 8 point lead evaporated very quickly.
 
ClockworkOrange said:
I don't know - but the answer to our problems wasn't to veer drastically in the opposite direction and appoint an unknown quantity after years of similarly profiled managers failing to bring us any success.
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He's already earned the club 14m this season in unexpected European Revenue and he's taken Morelos' game to another level to the point were we could be talking about a 15/20m pound asset. Do you honestly think the board are regretting hiring him?
 
Drumchapel-Bear said:
The fans (FF) couldn't agree on a manager during our search. All the dull, pragmatic managers under the sun were mentioned and half of the fan base didn't want them so they would have been right up against it straight away.
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So appoint a fancy name with no managerial experience to appease the fans?

After Caixinha it should have been a manager with experience, a manager with a bit of tactical clout, one who made us more consistent.

The BoD spent months pussy footing about and the best they could come up with was Derek McInnes. We then went from that to Steven Gerrard. How did we go from one end of the scale to the other?

We could sack Gerrard tomorrow and I've absolutely no confidence in the likes of King, Allen, Robertson et al making the tight appointement.
 
ClockworkOrange said:
The next appointment didn't need to get the juices flowing.

A dull, pragmatic manager with miles on the clock was the way to go. The time to take risks is over.

It's also probably right to acknowledge the board's absolutely abysmal managerial appointment history, from the clusterfuck of Warburton's firing to the failed approach for McInnes to the continued reign of Murty to the logic-defying appointment of Pedro.
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I don't agree with you fully but I think you make a valid argument however it's easy to start questioning the appointment now that it appears the the wheels could be coming off.

Not having a dig or anything but who would you have liked to have seen appointed? Would you have been happy with McInnes who had far more experience.
 
Drumchapel-Bear said:
He's already earned the club 14m this season in unexpected European Revenue and he's taken Morelos' game to another level to the point were we could be talking about a 15/20m pound asset. Do you honestly think the board are regretting hiring him?
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That's a masterful non sequitur.

I don't expect they do regret it, no. But that's not even remotely the issue being discussed.
 
trevor_steven said:
I don't agree with you fully but I think you make a valid argument however it's easy to start questioning the appointment now that it appears the the wheels could be coming off.

Not having a dig or anything but who would you have liked to have seen appointed? Would you have been happy with McInnes who had far more experience.
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I'm not entirely sure who, exactly - but then again, we're the Glasgow Rangers. Men across the world would crawl across Europe to sign for us. To suggest - as others have done - that the only recourse to our appointment woes was to sign a youth team coach is pathetic.
 
There’s no chance the board will sack SG this season. None.

The board made a conscious decision in hiring him knowing full well he had no experience as a first team coach, was inheriting a culsterfck and what the demands of the support would be.

It would be a disastrous decision from the club’s point of view to bin yet another manager so soon and sets the image of a club with no idea what it’s doing or where it’s going.

Gerrard is a long long way from criticism imho. But his mistakes through inexperience are only what anyone should have seen coming. If we are in any way interested in embracing his appointment in the first place, we need to give him at least another season to prove whether he can learn from the things he gets wrong and make the changes needed for next season.

I still don’t buy into the tick-box approach of “EL/2nd place done”. I think expectations should adjust and adapt over the course once the games are being played and the oppisition’s performance is actually seen. In my opinion, we’ve wasted a genuinely good chance to win a title THIS season.

I think SG knows it and recognises his summer window is probably his biggest test yet.
 
Drumchapel-Bear said:
What was your realistic aims for this season and how has he not met them?
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Part of the problem is he is unwilling to change the formation and to a degree the players when it clearly isnt working.
Every team in the league knows how we will line up and play, at the start of the season we caught them off guard and now anyone knows how to counter us.
For me the worrying parts are the inability to change pre match, poor use of subs, unwilling to change mid game. The recruitment has been disappointing. All these things need improved very quickly and to date he hasnt tried to chamge any of it and the sesdon is nearly over
 
Drumchapel-Bear said:
More than happy to debate the OP.

Articulate your expectations during preseason and how this season is so woefully bad and we aren't meeting them....
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If this is your response to my post then you clearly don't understand where I'm coming from (nice of you to avoid addressing my last post as well, by the way).

We are taking another punt on a rookie manager delivering the goods. We need to give him time knowing full well that at the end of that "time" we may be no further along and we'll be forced to start again.

No manager can be guaranteed to bring us success, but appointing a manager in the first place with a higher chance of getting it right, and experience in doing so, should have been the way forward.

We're tried gambles and risks since 2010. It's time for something different.
 
The Lone Sniper said:
Well there was McLeish. Or Pardew. There was Coleman. Or you could've had a Tommy Wright or some unknown from Europe.
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This is a bit disingenuous, to say the least. It also undermines how magnificent a club we are and our previous ability in appointing top-quality managers - PLG probably being the finest example of that.
 
ClockworkOrange said:
Yes, of course I was. The wrong appointment could still bring success, you know.

He may go on to win us the treble next year. It was still a reckless appointment to make.
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So let me get this straight. After everyone was in the total high of qualifying for Europa League you were posting saying he was the wrong appointment?

I’m calling bullshit.
 
Why do so many get upset when the manager is questioned? In fact it’s not just the manager being questioned but the progress in general.

It has already been touched on in the thread, Gerrards name alone is a sole reason for him being backed, dreadful results and repeated poor performances are being brushed aside and ignored in the vain hope he gets it right, there is absolutely nothing to suggest that he is learning and he can be charged with overseeing yet another rebuild.
 
Bluenose1979 said:
There’s no chance the board will sack SG this season. None.

The board made a conscious decision in hiring him knowing full well he had no experience as a first team coach, was inheriting a culsterfck and what the demands of the support would be.

It would be a disastrous decision from the club’s point of view to bin yet another manager so soon and sets the image of a club with no idea what it’s doing or where it’s going.

Gerrard is a long long way from criticism imho. But his mistakes through inexperience are only what anyone should have seen coming. If we are in any way interested in embracing his appointment in the first place, we need to give him at least another season to prove whether he can learn from the things he gets wrong and make the changes needed for next season.

I still don’t buy into the tick-box approach of “EL/2nd place done”. I think expectations should adjust and adapt over the course once the games are being played and the oppisition’s performance is actually seen. In my opinion, we’ve wasted a genuinely good chance to win a title THIS season.

I think SG knows it and recognises his summer window is probably his biggest test yet.
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There was a case to be made for not appointing an inexperienced manager , I made it at the time .

But having done so, we now find ourselves in the position where what you suggest in your post is the only sensible course of action .
 
Look at this season world class players getting into management and the results lampard is failing Terry Henry failed Paul Scholes failed Gerrard is on the brink of failing.
4 point from 9 v killie
4 points from 9 v sheep plus a cup draw and 2 defeats
3 points from 9 v hivs
11 points from 27 2 cup defeats to 3 teams on less than a tenth of our budget.

Again yesterday 5 minutes injury time and we had ne urgency no drive no fight.
We accept a draw.
That is not a Rangers team for me.
Gerrard is dropping the ball.
We have not won 4 games in a row all season.
 
ClockworkOrange said:
This is a bit disingenuous, to say the least. It also undermines how magnificent a club we are and our previous ability in appointing top-quality managers - PLG probably being the finest example of that.
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And, in an address to supporters on the Rangers website, chairman King said: “We were constantly put under pressure to make an appointment even though we did not consider the available candidates to be suitable to take the Club forward.

“We had many candidates with managerial experience, but the experience was not necessarily successful or of the standard that we felt we needed – particularly given our desire for stability after our recent experience of manager changes.

Maybe you should have been on the recruitment team to attract this top class, experienced manager that was apparently out there just waiting on us :D
 
The Lone Sniper said:
PLG? You like your big words but you're just talking shite.
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Where am I talking shite?

The club managing to appoint le Guen was fucking massive.

He was a colossal clown, and it was right he left, but to hire him in the first place was testament to the size and stature of a club that most people on here seem to think would be incapable of luring someone similar to now.
 
The Lone Sniper said:
Well there was McLeish. Or Pardew. There was Coleman. Or you could've had a Tommy Wright or some unknown from Europe.
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Or Pulis or Preud'homme, GvB, FdB, Moyes, Potter, Neil, Warnock... can't even remember all the other names discussed at length on here for 6 months.

We appointed a rookie and right now it looks like the wrong decision.
 
Wee Dick's Hairnet said:
So let me get this straight. After everyone was in the total high of qualifying for Europa League you were posting saying he was the wrong appointment?

I’m calling bullshit.
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Visibly, actively having conversations with people about qualifying for the Europa League by stating that he was the wrong guy? No, of course not.

Fully convinced that he was the man after that Europa League start? No, of course not.
 
Drumchapel-Bear said:
And, in an address to supporters on the Rangers website, chairman King said: “We were constantly put under pressure to make an appointment even though we did not consider the available candidates to be suitable to take the Club forward.

“We had many candidates with managerial experience, but the experience was not necessarily successful or of the standard that we felt we needed – particularly given our desire for stability after our recent experience of manager changes.

Maybe you should have been on the recruitment team to attract this top class, experienced manager that was apparently out there just waiting on us :D
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Why are you using the words of King as a way of criticising my posts when I've outlined how the same group of people have made an absolute clusterfuck of our last five or six managers?

While you're at it, can you not perceive the irony of not wanting experience, but wanting stability, in the very same sentence?

And while you're still here, do you really think the board would have said - "Yeah, we wanted experience but couldn't get it so we've appointed Gerrard instead"?
 
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We were all star struck by his appointment but his cv as a coach should mean he should be no where near rangers managers job. Let's hope he has learned from this season and really kicks on next year. Its been a steep learning curve for him and he simply needs to start next season running or we will need to change managers. I'm willing to give him another season if he shows we could potentially win it the season after.
 
CaptainCourageous said:
Or Pulis or Preud'homme, GvB, FdB, Moyes, Potter, Neil, Warnock... can't even remember all the other names discussed at length on here for 6 months.

We appointed a rookie and right now it looks like the wrong decision.
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Aye and Gio and de Boer didn't want to come. And the rest are painfully average and/or unsuitable.

Let's try to support our young Gaffer.
 
Bowery Boy said:
There are plenty on here and on social media calling for his head. It's complete and utter idiocy.

Agree with the OP.

We simply need to add 4 or 5 quality additions in the summer to give the manager a chance of competing for trophies.
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How long have we been saying this though??

The worrying this is we having signed absolute guff every year and for SG that looks to largely be the case once again.

It really shouldn't be this tough but somehow year after year we seem to absolutely nail it - the mis-management of the club is scary.

There is no long-term future in having a fresh start every summer but with SG at the helm or not we are looking at just that as we look to move on a whole load of players and perhaps bring it 10 players.
 
Drumchapel-Bear said:
What was your realistic aims for this season and how has he not met them?
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I expected us to beat shite SPL sides far more consistently. I expected a cup final. I didn’t expect another late season collapse.

Don’t dare tell me either of those was unrealistic, especially given that we avoided the filth in both cup competitions.
 
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Drumchapel-Bear said:
In any profession, you are set annual goals and targets which you are judged on at the end of your working year (or season with regards to football). When Steven Gerrard was appointed manager in the summer by Dave King, he would have been set certain goals/targets for the season - some being Non Negotiable and some Desirable. We can speculate what those goals might have been, we know that a desirable goal was King wanted Europa League Qualification but Gerrard didn't think we were ready for it at the time (he mentioned this in an interview). I would have thought Non Negotiable goals would have been finishing a clear 2nd in the league, beating Celtic and perhaps winning a Cup would have been somewhere between desirable/non negotiable.

If you started a poll on here during the summer and said the following will happen this season:

- Europa League Qualification
- Beating Celtic
- Clear 2nd in the league

Most people would have been happy with that for Gerrard's first season (no matter what they say now). For me, the only thing he has failed in so far is being papped out of both cups before the final stage but if you are looking at it from a goals perspective, he has only failed in 1/4 goals, so I would really love to hear what the actual case is for sacking the guy? Winning the title in his first season would not have been an expectation for this season.

If you take a step back and look at things objectively, it has been a decent first season for him. Imo you are mental if you want him sacked right now.

Now, before people start piling in about our win record against Killie/Aberdeen/Hibs this season, it is pretty poor, what I have posted above doesn't mean that I am happy with the games against them this season. Both things are not mutually exclusive. Would people rather we got a couple of wins against The Sheep this season like Murty done last season but ended up finishing 3rd? Of course you wouldn't. I couldn't tell you off the top of my head how many times we failed to beat these teams during the seasons we won titles growing up, because at the end of the day it's all about winning titles at Rangers. As I have mentioned previously, in our route back to being top dogs there is a process we need to go through which involves us becoming clear best of the rest (which we are now, irrespective of records against individual teams - we are 8 points clear of 3rd). The next step is making a realistic challenge for the title - that needs to come next season (and I believe it will). Most people would have been happy with that last summer as well.

When Juventus were demoted from Serie A, it took them 4/5 seasons to win the title again after being promoted and what they went through was nowhere near as bad as us in terms of players and revenue streams etc lost. We have no divine right to just come right back up and win this title right away just because we are Rangers, it is a process and we are on track. The next step in the process has been made this season with all the goals I mentioned above being met, next season is all about kicking on and making a proper push now. The manager knows what we need, he continually mentions the final 3rd and the quality etc.

It's time for deep breaths and calm heads.
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Souness won it in 87, some great teams then.
Hearts, dundee utd, aberdeen and them.
He came into a shambles.
 
do you think Gerrard is getting the right level of support from the likes of McAllister? I really think things will improve next season but have nothing to base that on. i guess it just has to.
 
We all know that SG has made mistakes, in the same way, as all other managers do. Don’t know too many who think that he should be sacked and pretty sure that won’t happen in the near future. It is evident to many, that we don’t have sufficient quality players and it is unlikely that any manager would improve our team, without recruiting some who are more skilful. However, there has to be a concern that the funds to sign better quality may not be available. The concern arises out of signing players like Kamara, who is decent but no more than that and Jones, who appears to be pretty average. OK, funds might be available if Morelos leaves but to replace him adequately, won’t be cheap. Just feel that those who believe that changing our manager will make any big difference, are being optimistic to the point of being a little naive.
 
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