the upsetter
Well-Known Member
%^*& right off
Not quite sure why you've responded like this to a song about Rangers.
%^*& right off
Prefer that sash lineYears ago my Dad told me these were the original words to the Billy boys anyone else heard these lyrics ?
Hello hello you`ll hear us proudly cry
hello hello as we go marching by
we`ll sing the sash and Derry`s walls
and of the heroes of the Boyne
as we go marching to Ibrox
No F words so wonder if this version would be politically correct !
A goal! A goal!
We’re ready to acclaim,
A goal! A goal!
To win another game,
We’re followers of Rangers,
Our hearts are strong and true,
We are the people who cheer the boys in blue.
My recollection is that these are the original words
Don’t be ridiculous. UEFA can’t ban the song they can only ban the words that are offensive
A goal! A goal!
We’re ready to acclaim,
A goal! A goal!
To win another game,
We’re followers of Rangers,
Our hearts are strong and true,
We are the people who cheer the boys in blue.
My recollection is that these are the original words
Don’t be ridiculous. UEFA can’t ban the song they can only ban the words that are offensive
Can’t beleive they can ban the tune.
Are they going to fine Man Utd when there fans sing it?
Surely I’d would look better on us if they seen we changed the offending words.
UEFA cannot ban a tune for crying out loud! Use some form of autonomy and think about that for the shortest of seconds... it’s ludicrous and couldn’t be upheld!
Dropping “tunes” is moronic.
As a kid I had a Rangers LP and those were the words on it.That’s a good song
You’ve bookended some common sense with nonsense I’m afraid. Seriously, read the directive. I can’t say more to you than that.UEFA cannot ban a tune for crying out loud! Use some form of autonomy and think about that for the shortest of seconds... it’s ludicrous and couldn’t be upheld!
Dropping “tunes” however is moronic without seeking clarification. Amongst other things it allows us to put it all to bed once and for all without confusions.
No, because we cannot trust people not to sing the original words.Can’t beleive they can ban the tune.
Are they going to fine Man Utd when there fans sing it?
Surely I’d would look better on us if they seen we changed the offending words.
Did you not read the bit I said above about us going to CAS? UEFA have to punish us on grounds of the Article. Singing along to that tune without any offensive lyrics cannot fall under that. We would win any case.
This is where clarification is required on specifics. Meekly swallowing it without this would be ridiculous and leaves us open for future creep into other songs/behaviour/etc.
You're literally saying that something that has been done, can't be done. I don't know how to debate they with you any further. I don't meant to be rude but you're arguing black is white and are either unwilling or unable to accept facts because it seems you don't want them to be correct or don't agree with them.
The rest of your post - that I never quoted is fair and I mostly agree with.
It’s not vague. It’s utterly explicit. It’s there black and white and in plain English.I understand what UEFA have said. That’s why I believe that the club need to seek clarification. The notion of banning a tune is preposterous. If nothing else, the we should look to safeguard ourselves against future sanction by defining the problem. If they respond like they did in 06 then the club should point out how vague this is and how a tune can’t be in breach of the Article...
Cooperation is fine. But we need to know what we are cooperating with! Surely....
You can console yourself with cosmic justice. Sadly, if we want to play in UEFA competitions then we are subject to theirs. And evidently the can ban a melody. It’s there in black and white for you.
In the directive posted, on page 12 section 4) b., UEFA acknowledge that their position would not stand in a criminal court, but it is in keeping with Article 2 of UEFA statutes.
From the ruling:
4) b. “The defence was obviously not aware of the above-mentioned far-reaching UEFA definition of fair play. Sectarianism cannot be combated successfully if parts of the lyrics and the melody of strongly sectarian songs are tolerated for the simple reason that in order to tackle sectarianism, a song must be composed in a way that implies ill-will and malice. Indeed, this definition might be the right one for criminal prosecution, but it is not the one as understood by the fair play principle stipulated in Article 2 of the UEFA Statutes. In order to reach this general attitude of mind based on ethical principles, it is essential that any songs linked in any way to discrimination and sectarianism are prohibited on any football ground, irrespective of their wording. All these songs are widely known by their lyrics and melody and can thus easily be identified and combated. It is the defendant‟s responsibility to spread this ethos amongst its supporters.”
I don't need to console myself with cosmic justice, simply European Law. I've read what you've posted, have seen it before and it raises my eyebrows we never challenged its wording. Like you (I'm guessing), I consider myself a progressive Rangers fan, I don't do the add-ons and have no great desire to cling onto the BB when we have so many other songs.
That said, there is no legal way to ban a melody in the western world. "Marching through Georgia" is a longstanding, traditional tune.
It's sung over the globe, not only at football matches.
UEFA are not the be all arbitrators of modern fairness and justice, they've been beaten countless times on points of law. If we cut out the add-ons and see what they could do. I suspect, nothing, absolutely zero.
I am in full agreement with you and applaud your efforts, as it is imperative people understand this. It is literally in black and white.I really don’t.
But it is really, really fucking important that people understand this. We don’t have to like it. But we have to accept it or it’ll be empty Ibrox, followed by no Europe, followed by more years in the wilderness as a result of the financial and reputational damage it will do to us.
After everything we’ve been through, I can’t face that.
I really don’t see what you think we stand to gain from picking a fight with UEFA over this. Especially when we’ve been singing it with bigoted lyrics all summer.I don't need to console myself with cosmic justice, simply European Law. I've read what you've posted, have seen it before and it raises my eyebrows we never challenged its wording. Like you (I'm guessing), I consider myself a progressive Rangers fan, I don't do the add-ons and have no great desire to cling onto the BB when we have so many other songs.
That said, there is no legal way to ban a melody in the western world. "Marching through Georgia" is a longstanding, traditional tune.
It's sung over the globe, not only at football matches.
UEFA are not the be all arbitrators of modern fairness and justice, they've been beaten countless times on points of law. If we cut out the add-ons and see what they could do. I suspect, nothing, absolutely zero.
No, they’re not. But they are the arbitrators of their own competitions. And we signup to abiding by it, not “European law”, when we enter the tournament.I don't need to console myself with cosmic justice, simply European Law. I've read what you've posted, have seen it before and it raises my eyebrows we never challenged its wording. Like you (I'm guessing), I consider myself a progressive Rangers fan, I don't do the add-ons and have no great desire to cling onto the BB when we have so many other songs.
That said, there is no legal way to ban a melody in the western world. "Marching through Georgia" is a longstanding, traditional tune.
It's sung over the globe, not only at football matches.
UEFA are not the be all arbitrators of modern fairness and justice, they've been beaten countless times on points of law. If we cut out the add-ons and see what they could do. I suspect, nothing, absolutely zero.
There's an example of it quoted to you in this thread mate. They did it. To us.
It wasn't challenged so that's a moot point, and the board or anyone else for that matter have shown absolutely no appetite to do so.
Simply saying "We'd win if we took it to court" is absolutely pointless considering it's not something we will ever do.
Let the song go.
We cannot sing it in any form. Any attempt to change the words will inevitably end up in people using the original words and getting us in trouble.
It’s finished. Let it go.
You’ve bookended some common sense with nonsense I’m afraid. Seriously, read the directive. I can’t say more to you than that.
If it doesn’t blow apart your delusions of fairness and justice then maybe you will fathom it when you’re watching a European game on the TV with the stands empty. Or maybe reality will only hit home when we’re banned.
@LJ50 has posted it in this thread.I am not arguing, but if you are right then it would mean that a tune would become "sectarian" or offensive. So a particular grouping of notes to form a melody is offensive? If that melody is of cultural significance for whatever reason, then I think that there might be a "human rights" angle to be explored here.
Is "Billy Boys" not derived from some old American civil war rallying call?
I like the tune, and whereas, I would not advocate, continuing to sing or even whistle it at games. I really do think this idea should be challenged.
I will therefore ask, that if anyone has definitive proof that the tune, regardless of words, is not acceptable, then I personally will challenge this with SFA, EUFA, or any other "Authority".
Read the judgement. Specifically, the top of page 12 and slap bang in the middle of page 14.I am not arguing, but if you are right then it would mean that a tune would become "sectarian" or offensive. So a particular grouping of notes to form a melody is offensive? If that melody is of cultural significance for whatever reason, then I think that there might be a "human rights" angle to be explored here.
Is "Billy Boys" not derived from some old American civil war rallying call?
I like the tune, and whereas, I would not advocate, continuing to sing or even whistle it at games. I really do think this idea should be challenged.
I will therefore ask, that if anyone has definitive proof that the tune, regardless of words, is not acceptable, then I personally will challenge this with SFA, EUFA, or any other "Authority".
I really don’t see what you think we stand to gain from picking a fight with UEFA over this. Especially when we’ve been singing it with bigoted lyrics all summer.
This is what causes me an issue - without being prescriptive on “banned words”, we are eternally open to others complaining that our songs are sectarian and seeking to demonstrate that they can be identified as such within certain circles... surely the club can see the witch hunt that could follow?
I’m missing absolutely nothing. UEFA were explicit. Read the directive. The Club should be more vocal in reminding supporting of the details.I think you’re missing the bigger picture in what I'm saying here. I’m not some hard of thinking who wants to challenge UEFA based on a desire to continue with the status quo. I’m suggesting we need to clarify that which is deemed to cause offence. If that means challenging them on elements (such as Marching Through Georgia somehow being sectarian), then that’s what we should do. But the outcome should be that we have a clear and fair judgement which the club can explain to supporters - together with the ramifications for non adherence. Otherwise we stumble from situation to situation, interpretation to interpretation. That would be madness.
Here’s another thing I was brought up to believe: when you’ve been caught doing something wrong, stop digging the hole and admit to it. Take responsibility and show leadership.If you think something is unfair then it's worth fighting against. That is what I was brought up to believe.
OK. Let's let the song go. No bother.
Then, let's agree we can be the only club that can't wear orange shirts as that offends.
Then let's get rid of the Sash as that offends.
Then let's get rid of "We are the people chants" as that offends.
Then, lets make a formal apology for our signing policy history as that offends.
Then, let's just call ourselves Sevco as us being Rangers offends.
I mean, where does it end? Take your pick.
Derry's Walls* should be our battlecry from now on, it really makes the hairs on your neck stand up when it's getting belted out.We cannot sing it in any form. Any attempt to change the words will inevitably end up in people using the original words and getting us in trouble.
It’s finished. Let it go.
Admirable. But please fight it in a way that doesn’t enable people to justify signing songs that will lead to the stadium being shut and us banned from European competition. You may be progressive and happy not to sing the songs, but by spreading misinformation that somehow we can wriggle out of this, you’re giving someone, somewhere justification to do so.If you think something is unfair then it's worth fighting against. That is what I was brought up to believe.
The difference is that UEFA haven't instructed us to stop doing any of those things.
I'm really not having a go here but that's a nonsensical rant that has nothing to do with this particular subject.
For what it's worth, I agree with you that it's ludicrous they can deem a melody to be unacceptable but they have. It's been done. We've accepted it.
We can, of course, chose to not participate in their competition should be disagree with it but as we do, we simply have to accept what they decide. Or challenge it. And we haven't / won't be challenging it so there's only the option of accepting it left to us
As I’ve said elsewhere, that’s absolutely what they’re coming after next. So what I, and others, are saying is can we put our energies into fighting that instead of fighting battle that are lost.The tangerine strips will be "banned" next as they "identify with a sectarian culture".
Will the same guys be backing that?
After all....Uefa said blah blah.....
Equally illegal btw, you can hum any melody you want and wear any colour you wish.
With sectarian language. That’s where it ends.It's not nonsensical.
I'm asking you, where does it end?
Admirable. But please fight it in a way that doesn’t enable people to justify signing songs that will lead to the stadium being shut and us banned from European competition. You may be progressive and happy not to sing the songs, but by spreading misinformation that somehow we can wriggle out of this, you’re giving someone, somewhere justification to do so.
Here’s another thing I was brought up to believe: when you’ve been caught doing something wrong, stop digging the hole and admit to it. Take responsibility and show leadership.
Trying to squirm out of it is incredibly unedifying to watch. We all know the song is wrong. So bin it.
With sectarian language. That’s where it ends.
Would love that to be sung. Brilliant songA goal! A goal!
We’re ready to acclaim,
A goal! A goal!
To win another game,
We’re followers of Rangers,
Our hearts are strong and true,
We are the people who cheer the boys in blue.
My recollection is that these are the original words
It's not nonsensical.
I'm asking you, where does it end?
I’m missing absolutely nothing. UEFA were explicit. Read the directive. The Club should be more vocal in reminding supporting of the details.
It doesn’t stop UEFA deciding more things should be banned in future, but instead of enabling people to cling onto TBB by fighting lost battles, can we please focus our energies on preparing for whatever they might come after next. That’s the big fucking picture.
I agree, part of the directive mentions the way the song is perceived by sections of Scottish society determines whether it is offensive. They could come after us for any song that relates to loyalist culture and isn’t directly about Rangers, based on the offence it causes to sections of society.
It ends with the stuff UEFA specifically instruct us not to do.
If they try to ban wearing orange then we can either challenge it, accept it or leave their competitions.
It's not hard to understand.
It's like trying to get in to a night club that bans wearing trainers.
But what if I really like wearing trainers? Think the night club - and this night club has a queue around the block - is going to change its rules for you?
So then you wear your shoes and then the next week the day no check shirts. What options do you have?
The analogy isn't great but I think it gets the point across.
Basically, If you want in you do what the %^*& you're told. Like it or not.