I got my information from being brought up in the Calton, going to school in Brigton , travelling to games on the Mermaid Supporters bus during the 1960's and supporting Rangers for well over 60 years. I am very well acquainted as to the origins of this particular song and how it ended up as part of our supporters repertoire and I am talking about the lyrics as they've been sung since the 1920's. A few years back in another thread about the song I remember a poster on here referencing a newspaper report from the 1928 Scottish Cup Final and the journalist's description of a gang of men from Bridgeton singing it as they walked up Polmadie Road towards Hampden. If you don't know that TBB was the anthem of Billy Fullerton's gang from the 1920's then you are not well informed. If you want to take it back to the 19th century then the American Civil War anthem, 'Marching through Georgia' is where to start looking for the tune.
Is this the original Billy boys words ?
- Thread starter Newtown Bear
- Start date
I got my information from being brought up in the Calton, going to school in Brigton , travelling to games on the Mermaid Supporters bus during the 1960's and supporting Rangers for well over 60 years. I am very well acquainted as to the origins of this particular song and how it ended up as part of our supporters repertoire and I am talking about the lyrics as they've been sung since the 1920's. A few years back in another thread about the song I remember a poster on here referencing a newspaper report from the 1928 Scottish Cup Final and the journalist's description of a gang of men from Bridgeton singing it as they walked up Polmadie Road towards Hampden. If you don't know that TBB was the anthem of Billy Fullerton's gang from the 1920's then you are not well informed. If you want to take it back to the 19th century then the American Civil War anthem, 'Marching through Georgia' is where to start looking for the tune.
Question
So according to the directive TBB has been banned in any form, now does that apply to solely Rangers or every team.
So according to the directive TBB has been banned in any form, now does that apply to solely Rangers or every team.
The directive is specifically against Rangers due to the connotations of sectarianism it brings when sung by rangers fans. (even if just the melody)
its not
deedle
Well-Known Member
I don’t think jimbear is a million miles out.
Most of what is said about this type of history is anecdotal. By its nature, not much would have been written at the time.
The first reference to the chant appears to have been in a report of the 1928 Cup Final.
Although the ‘Billy’ in the song is frequently said to relate to Billy Fullerton, there is a body of opinion that it simply relates to King Billy.
The central issue is whether ‘19th Century Terrorist’ means ‘Catholic’ and I strongly dispute this is the case. The club was stitched up over this by people who hate us.
It’s too late now re UEFA but I think it’s important to set the record straight.
Tougherthanbullets
Well-Known Member
Given that Hello Hello is the strongest and most hair raising part of the song I'd go with,
Hello Hello
We' are the boys in blue
Hello Hello
We follow loud and true
We are the Glasgow Rangers our hearts are strong and true.
For we are the people who cheer the boys in blue.
Hello Hello
We' are the boys in blue
Hello Hello
We follow loud and true
We are the Glasgow Rangers our hearts are strong and true.
For we are the people who cheer the boys in blue.
ca100
Well-Known Member
Have you read the previous 5 pages and LJ50's posts?
WATP
Well-Known Member
This surely can’t be deemed offensive!! There is no Hello Hello......a tune cannot be deemed offensive especially if same said Tune is sung by other teams!
I like this original version....it’s focused on the positives of Rangers!
wee bud's pit boots
Well-Known Member
Now years ago the 'Penny Boys'
They did guard old Bridgeton Cross
And now they have gone
Bridgeton sadly feels the loss
But Bridgeton still has Protestants
So let your heart rejoice
Here's good luck to the Glasgow Rangers
And the 'Brigton Derry Boys.'
They did guard old Bridgeton Cross
And now they have gone
Bridgeton sadly feels the loss
But Bridgeton still has Protestants
So let your heart rejoice
Here's good luck to the Glasgow Rangers
And the 'Brigton Derry Boys.'
Forza_Napoli
Well-Known Member
Can't understand why people can't just let this go it's done and we can't sing it home or away no matter how many change of lyrics people suggest there will still be individuals that sing the old version the club want nothing to do with it. Its over it's done we need to move on for the good of the ckub
That is 'approximately' the final verse of 'We're the boys from the Toll'. The 5th line should read, "But Brigton still is Protestant".
brain
Well-Known Member
It's a thankless task trying to get through to some people on here. The sheer number of threads on the topic has been depressing.
Yes
ca100
Well-Known Member
And still dont agree that we are banned from singing it?
mccoist__355
Member
Had to intervene in this absurd debate about the "tune" being banned. Of course it's not. UEFA made clear that changing words within the chant - to "celtic blood" etc - would not be tolerated, which is sensible. Any "Billy Boys" chant given the supposed connection with Fullarton is a non-starter.
But exaggerating that to claim that even reciting the UN Declaration of Human Rights to that tune would see us in the dock for racism/sectarianism is ridiculous beyond belief. Literally laughable!
Folk asking why it matters? Because a Rangers worded version is the best chance of moving on from this constant cycle of getting in the shit, banning it, then it coming back again.
A properly organised and promoted effort towards a Rangers worded version would in effect be a proactively ANTI-SECTARIAN initiative from the fans. A win-win. Given the massive success of other Rangers-based chants recently, including 4 Lads (to the famine song tune of course) the appetite is there to make it work, even more so given the context.
If you want to save what's best about the chant, it's the only hope.
If you want the move on from the periodic PR disaster, it has a better chance than what's failed time and time before.
20 years we've had to get our house in order. No time like the present.
But exaggerating that to claim that even reciting the UN Declaration of Human Rights to that tune would see us in the dock for racism/sectarianism is ridiculous beyond belief. Literally laughable!
Folk asking why it matters? Because a Rangers worded version is the best chance of moving on from this constant cycle of getting in the shit, banning it, then it coming back again.
A properly organised and promoted effort towards a Rangers worded version would in effect be a proactively ANTI-SECTARIAN initiative from the fans. A win-win. Given the massive success of other Rangers-based chants recently, including 4 Lads (to the famine song tune of course) the appetite is there to make it work, even more so given the context.
If you want to save what's best about the chant, it's the only hope.
If you want the move on from the periodic PR disaster, it has a better chance than what's failed time and time before.
20 years we've had to get our house in order. No time like the present.
steve1873
Well-Known Member
FFS, we can't. Unless you think the club are somehow going to do a 180 and decide to further appeal to UEFA that the removal of the word 19th Century Terrorist totally de-emphasises any sectarian meaning.
But the judgement was explicit. Any version of the song, with any lyrics to the melody that accompanies TBB will be deemed to be sectarian in nature as the tune is so closely associated to the sectarian attitude that permeates that song, as sung by our support.
End of story.
steve1873
Well-Known Member
The tune IS deemed offensive by association. Read the judgement from 2006. It leaves no wiggle room.
I don't agree with much of it, but I don't set the rules. UEFA do and we are breaking the rules by singing any song associated to TBB.
steve1873
Well-Known Member
You are wrong. The tune is banned from being used by our support. Would that stand up in a court? Unlikely. But it only has to if the club want to take that action.
Of course, you could in theory personally take it through some form of court, perhaps the ECHR and see how you get on, but until that day and until the ban on us using that tune with any lyrics is deemed unlawful, then the judgement stands.
No matter how much you want to stick your fingers in your ears and deny that you hear the message!
HenningBerg
Well-Known Member
It’s clear people aren’t listening or won’t be told .
To be fair on Sunday our away crowd knew not to sing it .
The club are ready to make an example of anyone singing TBB home or away and that includes Sunday coming , we are going to end up with people being ejected , season ticket removed and banned . And they can’t say they haven’t been warned .
There will be more stewards and police at Sunday’s game , the club are rightly determined that all this shite ends now before our name is dragged through the mud any further.
Sing any of TBB, super Rangers , bobby sands , the pope , or 19th Century Terrorist , you won’t be in your seat long.
And there’s 15,000 people waiting to take the seat once your banned .
People’s own choice . Rangers or selfish “ ah will sing wit a want” .
WATP
Well-Known Member
the actual order from UEFA is hard to find, do you have a copy or link as I’m becoming more assured that the Tune of Marching Through Georgia can’t be banned, let alone banned from some clubs and not others.
We should not be singing it or versions of it until a legal position is known or UEFA provide clarity. I state again that a fan org like Club 1872 should legally challenge UEFA under freedom of speech and Human rights act! Time football knew it’s not above the law!
steve1873
Well-Known Member
You can be more assured all you like. Or you can read this...
http://www.linfieldfc.com/pdfs/8393_rangers_vs_uefa.pdf
steve1873
Well-Known Member
As far as your insistence that we should be singing it (with 19th Century Terrorist removed) until such time as legal position is known - ok, so our club is thrown out of Europe and banned until such time as it takes to run through the significant legal and appeals process!
Sound good to you?
Sound good to you?
Carson’s chosen few
Well-Known Member
I prefer the more well known version but that’s just me . As we can’t sing it then I can’t see us being able to sing any version
Coop1872
Well-Known Member
http://www.linfieldfc.com/pdfs/8393_rangers_vs_uefa.pdf
You will notice the link shared in this thread by LJ50 has Linfield's name on it. I'm not sure if it was meant to be available on the internet but I am assuming it was sent to Linfield by UEFA or maybe even Rangers as guidance when the Blues were having similar problems back around 2014.
"Linfield communicated this to their fans after the governing body acted on a Uefa appeals decision against Rangers some eight years ago.
Even the tune, which is known as 'Marching through Georgia' has been banned and the changing of the words to remove any lyrics which would be deemed as sectarian is also banned."
The Linfield board I believe met with supporters groups to sort out the issue and were successful.
Now admittedly Rangers have a much bigger fanbase but surely the board should be engaging with the Union Bears, supporters clubs etc and be more proactive.
Finally if Linfield supporters - who have lived through the troubles, lost friends and family to the provos, engaged in the conflict etc - can ditch these songs for the sake of the club they love then surely we can do likewise.
You will notice the link shared in this thread by LJ50 has Linfield's name on it. I'm not sure if it was meant to be available on the internet but I am assuming it was sent to Linfield by UEFA or maybe even Rangers as guidance when the Blues were having similar problems back around 2014.
"Linfield communicated this to their fans after the governing body acted on a Uefa appeals decision against Rangers some eight years ago.
Even the tune, which is known as 'Marching through Georgia' has been banned and the changing of the words to remove any lyrics which would be deemed as sectarian is also banned."
The Linfield board I believe met with supporters groups to sort out the issue and were successful.
Now admittedly Rangers have a much bigger fanbase but surely the board should be engaging with the Union Bears, supporters clubs etc and be more proactive.
Finally if Linfield supporters - who have lived through the troubles, lost friends and family to the provos, engaged in the conflict etc - can ditch these songs for the sake of the club they love then surely we can do likewise.
HenningBerg
Well-Known Member
Reading that sends a chill through me . It shows the lengths people will go to for our club to be done .
15 pages about the billy boys with statements from academics , politicians and “ anonymous” sources .
Yet people will still sing it .
deedle
Well-Known Member
Changed my view on this - both 'experts' were professors which narrows down the field.
Devine and Gallagher spring to mind as candidates.
WATP
Well-Known Member
Where did I say that we should be singing it.....I’m lost have maintained all along we should not be loading any guns.....I think you’ve read what you wanted to read there!! Hmmmm????
I am also not sure where in the document you shared where it says Marching Through Georgia Tune is banned???
WATP
Well-Known Member
Yet we’ve sin binned the UB, not all one sided but surely the board should agree a song book with the UB and stick to it, not ostracise them.
Stez64
Well-Known Member
Fuckinhell, how many usernames do you have .
Fans are not going to take a chance of singing this with a one word change and therefore getting their team thrown out of Europe , but a lot of fans would like to know if it's possible to create a new song altogether with the same tune .
I think we all know that if TBB is sung, it will damage the club , without certain posters spouting the same pish about getting thrown out.
We get it...
steve1873
Well-Known Member
Apologies, I misread your post and didn't read the word "not".
steve1873
Well-Known Member
steve1873
Well-Known Member
No, quite simply some don't get it, or this wouldn't be a 6 page thread, nor would there be continued discussion all over social media about the subject.
Stez64
Well-Known Member
Social media is a very powerful tool.
A proper campaign expressing the need to kill off TBB altogether, and POSSIBLY having it replaced with a completely new song , would not take very long to filter through the ranks.
I detest the thought that these child rapists are taking the moral high ground at being called 19th Century Terrorists, especially as they are self confessed 19th Century Terrorists.
All I'm saying is that if we try to do this 100% properly and work with The Board, Club 1872, UEFA and anyone else who will help, then we possibly could have a "NEW" Rangers song with a magnificent tune.
If we try, and it falls on deaf ears, so be it .
laudofan
Well-Known Member
I agree it's worth a try.
But it has to be done with UEFA's approval as a proactive attempt to ditch the baggage of the past and replace it with a positive football anthem for the whole stadium to sing with pride.
Who knows what UEFA might say but they just might be amenable to our fans coming from that angle.
Stez64
Well-Known Member
Agreed.
Admit that the song has no place at a football match, and put forward proposals to change the whole song.
Start a campaign on social media explaining that TBB has to go and request that the fans help with new lyrics.
laudofan
Well-Known Member
Yes, that would be the way to do it.
If the Germans can ditch the Nazi-era "Uber Alles" verse from their national anthem (sung at the time of their regime's systematic slaughter of millions) then I think it's not unreasonable for football fans to be allowed to disassociate themselves from a song about a Glasgow gang.
LJ50
Well-Known Member
The irony is, after 6 pages of trying of debate, I actually don’t agree that’s the the case. I don’t think it’s any more offensive that the French national anthem or Flower of Scotland. Now, that largely depends on your intentions in using the word 19th Century Terrorist, and I can only ever speak to my own view (though I confess I don’t ever recall using the word other than in the aforementioned songs).
But my, our, view on whether it has any place at a football match is irrelevant. The only view that is relevant is UEFA’s.
As an aside, equally irrelevant IMO would that be of the ECHR. I can’t really imagine the ECHR having any interest whatsoever in hearing a case on the topic, but if it did then I think we can say with a fair degree of confidence that it would laugh out such an appeal. No one’s human rights are being infringed by this ban. No one’s right to life, family life, employment. An argument on the basis of freedom of speech would, I suspect, be met with the observation that UEFA’s remit extends only to the stadiums in which it’s competitions are being played - and under who’s jurisdiction in that regard the club’s can freely agree or disagree to submit themselves - and that that does not stop anyone expressing their views outside of those venues.
mccoist__355
Member
So the suggestion by the likes of myself is to replace a chant deemed sectarian/discriminatory by one that is NOT sectarian/discriminatory, given the consistent reemergence of the chant despite 20 odd years of failed efforts to see it off.
Now we can disagree on the ruling of that 2006 judgement, but the question is - 13 years later - would a club be charged with discriminatory singing for endeavouring to eradicate a discriminatory chant?
Think about that. Punishing a club's support for an (promoted and publicised) initiative to prevent a sectarian chant being sung.
It's inconceivable. It's miles away from the "what if we change it to celtic blood" thinking that the original ruling was, unarguably, aiming to rule out.
How difficult would it be to clarify - with FARE or whoever - the matter beforehand? Would likely be essential to do so.
steve1873
Well-Known Member
Go ahead and open dialogue with FARE/ UEFA then, because it is a 100% certainty that the club isn't going to do it.
The judgement is explicit. The melody itself is so closely associated with an underlying sectarian attitude, that any form of it will be considered sectarian in itself, with or without any sectarian lyrics.
That is ridiculous. I will agree with you on that, but that is their edict.
Now, like I say they may well have a softer attitude to that than they did in 2006 and you can perhaps open dialogue with a supporters organisation to contact them on your behalf, or do it directly to receive further clarification. I'd not fancy your chances of getting a satisfactory resolution, but you would have my utmost support in your efforts.
However, right now as it stands, the 2006 directive is enforced and any hint of TBB or any alternative version of the Marching Through Georgia melody will see us face further punishments!
mccoist__355
Member
Certainly any initiative would need to be properly planned and publicised. That takes time and some leadership from our fan groups.
But it would be time spent attempting a positive solution, rather than repeating the same failed strategy that - if history is anything to go by - practically guarantees the next PR disaster is waiting over the horizon.
Robert Marshall
Well-Known Member
This was the Original
Marstonbear
Well-Known Member
Don’t want to derail the thread but the song was on Peaky Blinders tonight, the actual Billy Boys are part of the current series set around 1929
