It's still down to money and squad quality

SDF said:
We need to get rid of this idea that selling players is a bad thing.

The right sales could see SG be able to bring in 3, 4, 5 upgrades in the starting XI.
Click to expand...
I'll get absolute pelters for saying this,but selling Alfie and Kamara this summer should we get circa 40 million for them both(I think we will), might be the differnece needed to improve the team overall to get us over the line in regards to winning trophies.

A step backwards to take two forwards if you will.Not a popular opinion but nonetheless potentially a valid one.
 
I’m not entirely sure that’s true. Are you telling me the likes of Forrest, Christie, Hayes, Ajer, Griffith, bitto, Gordon/Bain, Rogic, Hayes are they result of a financial powerhouse?

i think we are making big excuses here. The only real top drawer quality thenhave is the 9 million man in Edouard. We have a 7 million man. They have about 4 players on loan that contribute? They also have much more output from the youth team and that’s not down to finances.
 
Sutton_Blows_goats said:
I’m not entirely sure that’s true. Are you telling me the likes of Forrest, Christie, Hayes, Ajer, Griffith, bitto, Gordon/Bain, Rogic, Hayes are they result of a financial powerhouse?

i think we are making big excuses here. The only real top drawer quality thenhave is the 9 million man in Edouard. We have a 7 million man. They have about 4 players on loan that contribute? They also have much more output from the youth team and that’s not down to finances.
Click to expand...

They've had the luxury of building a winning mentality over the last 8 years. That's all Celtic know and that's why they cannot fathom a challange from anywhere. It's almost disrespect if people say there is a title race.

We don't have this and we are starved of success. That's pressure. It's like a giant holding a child's head with their arm and the kid eager to get what the giant is holding.

It's fucking sickening that we keep failing.
 
DoubleWhopper said:
I think the truth of where we are is as a result of a little bit of all the reasons everyone's listed.

What is very clear is that Celtic have a much stronger squad than us. You only need to look at their recent results and see the variety of players and positions chipping in goals for them. They're not entirely dependent on one man up front. Their centrebacks score often. Midfielders seem to chip in with goals in every game.
Click to expand...
Don't forget they're treated differently by the refs...
 
Walters80 said:
Again I’ll make the argument that no matter how much Celtic spend that doesn’t give us an excuse to get beaten by a god awful Hearts side.

A side that’s not won a league game 2020 outside of beating us and have conceded 13 goals in their last 4 games.

How does Celtic having more money mean anything in that circumstance?
Click to expand...

It's the nature off football-Souness versus Hamilton or the Pars...it happens. Over a season you see the full picture.
 
SDF said:
We need to get rid of this idea that selling players is a bad thing.

The right sales could see SG be able to bring in 3, 4, 5 upgrades in the starting XI.
Click to expand...
It’s a model we need to start using and it’s eventually how we’ll close the financial gap with them. Player sales is the only way we’ll be able to improve on what we’ve got
 
DylanGer said:
There have been 100% some grim decisions against us.

However there are strong parallels between us and the Tims say under Burns when they were nearly there and were looking for that break that would make a difference-happens in every sport when you are just that bit short to look for...excuses frankly.

Of course many agree with you and I accept that.
Click to expand...

You make some fair points in the op, i hope the manager stays but im afraid this post is a bit of shocker.

Its nothing like Burns time as manager, how many refs went out to corrupt and influence the games to make sure they lost or were not successful ? i doubt there was any. Maybe the odd call went against them which happens to every team but there wasnt widespread corruption. It was an offside call ffs we get our players blootered around the pitch and injured yet pick up more cards than opposition thugs.

What happens to Rangers and Steven Gerrard does not happen in every sport, id be surprised if it happens anywhere in world sport.

It seems you are still spending way too much time going over and over the past and the tims behaviour to call things honestly now. But i guess if you accept the refs are bent you have to also accept you were out of order with a lot of comments you made on here about the more sensible posters that told us to watch out as the refs are going to target us.
 
cav said:
I'll get absolute pelters for saying this,but selling Alfie and Kamara this summer should we get circa 40 million for them both(I think we will), might be the differnece needed to improve the team overall to get us over the line in regards to winning trophies.

A step backwards to take two forwards if you will.Not a popular opinion but nonetheless potentially a valid one.
Click to expand...
You’re 100% correct mate. We will struggle to keep Barisic as well mate
 
  • Like
Reactions: cav
Maybe a signing or 2 who can come in and not accept being defeated in the manner we have been over the last few weeks. Seems everyone we sign now are good ball players but with f.uck all metal. Look at all our great sides there was a mixture of quality and sheer grafters with steel and refused to be beaten. Performances at killie and hearts were a disgrace to the jersey and would not have happened.
 
Don't agree. We are as good as them, but SG still hasn't worked out how to deal with Killie and Aberdeen. We've played them 20 times since SG arrived and he still doesn't know what to do with only 7 victories.
 
Brant Hurley said:
SFA officials are the main reason for Celtc's current points lead.
Click to expand...
To suggest anything else is ridiculous.

Both Rangers and Celtic were 1-1 with the sheep.
We are denied a stonewall penalty and lose 2-1 pushing for a goal.
The sheep are denied a stonewall penalty and lose 2-1 pushing for a goal.
4 point swing.
That's from the game just finished and the corresponding fixture and doesn't include any of the other scandalous decisions today.
There are 20 further examples.

Our directors and SFA and Ref reluctance to act on cowardice is the reason we are behind.
 
£7mil is now too much for Kent?

At the time I think everyone was delighted we got him for that....He's been off a good few matches now but he hasn't became a dud overnight.

We might not have had 3 £2mil players lined up so hindsight is a very easy option.
 
KensingtonBlue said:
With hindsight £7m on Kent was an incredibly wasteful use of resources.

We could afford a luxury signing like that if we had a £20m budget. We didn’t.

We improved the first XI in summer but not the squad. That £7m should have been spent on 3/4 players.
Click to expand...

Kent was a good signing.

SG signed about 10 wingers in the Summer, so if the squad isn’t good enough then we really need to be asking why. The fact we don’t even play with wingers (and he refuses to adapt the formation) must also be questioned.

Vydra is the type of signing we should have been looking for in the Summer. We rely far too heavily on Morelos, nobody else scores, and it was always likely Defoe’s legs would go.

Chopping and changing the centre halves won’t help either.

I agree with the OP and we need to give Gerrard time. But he isn’t without his flaws, and blaming it on the Kent signing is a bit of a misnomer.
 
NDC bear forever said:
Good post DG. As much as it may hurt to say goodbye to Alfie and Barisic in the summer, their potential transfer fees could let us have a squad full of quality, instead of the usual 15 we rely on. I’d trust Wilson and our scouting department to find us a good level of player.
Click to expand...

Selling Morelos for good money and getting Vydra from Burnley would be a very clever bit of business from us.

Then losing Eduoard would also help.
 
NDC bear forever said:
You’re 100% correct mate. We will struggle to keep Barisic as well mate
Click to expand...
Fwiw I think Kamara in particular is replaceable,and although it's a nigh impossible task getting a direct replacement for Alfie I do think we could improve the team overall to cope in two or three positions instead with some of the money we'd get for him.

I actually think replacing Barasic would be a lot trickier,in that we wouldn't get anywhere near the money for a 28 year old left back in comparison-that and replacing two first teamers in the one window will be difficult enough imo.

In the summer I think we might see go ;

Morelos,Kamara,Jones,Barker,Flanagan,Halliday,Ojo,Docherty,Foderingham and Murphy.

We'd need at least six in by my reckoning.
 
Dropping 5 pts to the worst Hearts team in years, ffs they couldn't beat 10 man Hamilton at home yesterday. Beating the Scum in their own midden should have drove us on to the Title but the same as last season we have capitulated that's what needs answered.
 
Last edited:
KensingtonBlue said:
With hindsight £7m on Kent was an incredibly wasteful use of resources.

We could afford a luxury signing like that if we had a £20m budget. We didn’t.

We improved the first XI in summer but not the squad. That £7m should have been spent on 3/4 players.
Click to expand...
I remember when we signed him a few posters were questioning whether he was worth 7 million, of course they were lambasted by many to stop talking shi%$ as he was clearly the difference between us going onto 55 or not !
 
Walters80 said:
The standard of the likes of Aberdeen and Hearts now compared to WS time isn’t really comparable.

The 3rd best side in the SPFL last season lost to a Welsh part time team. We’ve also dropped 5 points to a hearts side that regularly get annihilated pretty much every week, Celtic having more money to spend doesn’t give us an out ball against poor performances last against utter dross.
Click to expand...

Had this discussion the other day. I'm not buying it.

The standard of the rest of the teams is much the same as it was a decade ago IMO.
 
Walters80 said:
Again I’ll make the argument that no matter how much Celtic spend that doesn’t give us an excuse to get beaten by a god awful Hearts side.

A side that’s not won a league game in 2020 outside of beating us and have conceded 13 goals in their last 4 games.

How does Celtic having more money mean anything in that circumstance?
Click to expand...

We lost at home to ICT who got relegated in 09/10 or something like that. Was that acceptable then?
 
Agree, we can talk about formations, tactics and the like but at the end of the day they have a much larger squad with better quality.
 
Brant Hurley said:
SFA officials are the main reason for Celtc's current points lead.
Click to expand...
Beaton cost us on Wednesday but the officials weren't the reason we lost to hearts and drew with sheep. We've been muck since coming back from Dubai, blaming officials is an easy out
 
DylanGer said:
A lot of debate on what's went wrong but really it's simple we are not as good as many thought we are and their strength and depth has allowed them to bounce back.

We went into the season relying on younger players including a 7M investment in Kent-a few established players whose credentials are not of veteran winners and a few real deal players who are at the wrong end of their careers. We've tried to bolster the squad with the best quality we can get with the budget we have.

In the main the signings have been good and next to no one on here balked at 7M on Kent even though common sense and experience would tell you he is still developing. I said at the time putting all our eggs in one basket probably meant we couldn't review in January and spend again-whilst Hagi was something of a rabbit out of a hat he was always going to need time to adjust and develop.

Of course SG isn't bomb proof and of course he has made mistakes. I would have liked a genuine third better quality striker for the very reasons we've seen recently but he has also made a lot of decisions that have worked out better than I would thought they would. The fact he can't draw on massive experience and is not yet adept at changing games-is what you get with a young inexperienced manager.

I was talking to a Bear of a similar vintage to myself after the Killie result who is at breaking point -whilst he couldn't come up with an alternative to SG his mindset is that he is a dead man walking and thinks that is justified.

Ultimately the gap SG inherited has been under estimated by most of the support and we remain absolutely 100% reliant on what they do. To not consider they can continue to regroup with their better power base is folly. But many don't want to face that reality.

For me the sensible way forward is to get behind the manager-a change in strategy now isn't going to fast track success-he has made strides forward and now he really needs to cement some stability during the rest of the season. The support will not take too many other setbacks and will ignore the gap in overall terms we've created over the rest of the league. We've fallen recently because everything negative has came together at the one time-with no genuine squad depth there is no magic solution.

He as an individual is very clued up l I'd be very surprised if he's the guy to lurch through too many crises because he'll know overall he's done a pretty good job probably as good as you could expect considering his budget and experience. The modern fan seems even more demanding and unreasonable from a support who do not do "no success".

Imagine where we would have been this season without the European cash or indeed the form of Barisic or indeed Alfie's golden spell. It could have been a lot worse in the short term and indeed financially we could have been a lot worse off.

Time for the support to dig in a bit I think and realise the alternative may well play into our enemies hands. At the same time SG has to get the train back on the tracks.
Click to expand...
IMO some of the Kent fee should’ve been spent on proper back up full backs.
 
cav said:
Fwiw I think Kamara in particular is replaceable,and although it's a nigh impossible task getting a direct replacement for Alfie I do think we could improve the team overall to cope in two or three positions instead with some of the money we'd get for him.

I actually think replacing Barasic would be a lot trickier,in that we wouldn't get anywhere near the money for a 28 year old left back in comparison-that and replacing two first teamers in the one window will be difficult enough imo.

In the summer I think we might see go ;

Morelos,Kamara,Jones,Barker,Flanagan,Halliday,Ojo,Docherty,Foderingham and Murphy.

We'd need at least six in by my reckoning.
Click to expand...
Again, I agree mate. Kamara is very replaceable and a portion of the combined fee of Alfie and Kamara could be used on 4 top quality players. Full back cover for Borna and Tav (if Patterson isn’t ready) is an absolute necessity. We probably need two strikers (one if Alfie stays doubtful but could happen), a left back for cover (two of Borna leaves), then probably 3 attacking options which will let us have quality in depth and an attack minded centre midfielder
 
  • Like
Reactions: cav
It’s February of 2020 and we are starting games with Halliday at left back. We’ve dropped points when either Tav or Borna have been out. We simply don’t have the required back up for those two players. We are definitely still behind them in terms of having a competitive squad that can go the distance. Our starting 11 on our day can beat theirs but that’s not what really matters over the course of a season
 
Gerrard's failure to date and his ongoing failure are the games against the other traditional top 6 teams.

- Europe has been fantastic.
- The old firm games are competitive and pretty even.
- We routinely win the games against the bottom 6 and smaller clubs (1-0 defeat to Livingston, 1-1 draw with Dundee and 0-0 with St Johnstone last season has been improved to no slips at all this season)
- Kilmarnock, Aberdeen, Hibs and Hearts. Played 33, Won 15, Drawn 11, Lost 7 in all competitions.

That bottom line is Gerrard's problem.
 
Not much difference in starting eleven but their squad is better IMO
Kent hasn't done it for us for £7m. Now where near enough goals or assists.
 
Nonsense it's not all about cash.

McGregor scored their first and Ajer scored their second after being set up by nae neck.

Between they three players it cost them under £1m.
 
After watching the Hearts and Kilmarnock games, It was obvious that both these teams were "up"for both games. They tackled and ran like demons and we couldn't handle their passion to beat us. Our guys looked shell shocked more than anything and, maybe they were scared of an injury but they didn't seem to want the ball and tried to get rid of it as soon as they could.Of course they were also scared of getting booked or sent off as the referees were firmly on their side or, at least celtcs.
We don't seem to have the strength of character that makes us win games like that and I don't know how to fix it. I hope that SG does but I think he needs more exposure to Glasgow and its unique football passion. Everton vs Liverpool or Liverpool vs Man U. is all very well but there is none of the visceral hatred down there that makes Glasgow unique and is something that has to be felt and experienced rather than seen and heard.
 
DylanGer said:
I would agree the league is not over. However current form for both clubs certainly makes any kind of change look unlikely at this stage in proceedings. We could do with a break.
Click to expand...


The League is done, mate. There is no ways refs will award game changing decisions which affect Celtc and for them to drop points.
 
NDC bear forever said:
Again, I agree mate. Kamara is very replaceable and a portion of the combined fee of Alfie and Kamara could be used on 4 top quality players. Full back cover for Borna and Tav (if Patterson isn’t ready) is an absolute necessity. We probably need two strikers (one if Alfie stays doubtful but could happen), a left back for cover (two of Borna leaves), then probably 3 attacking options which will let us have quality in depth and an attack minded centre midfielder
Click to expand...
I think two strikers,two midfielders with one more attacking and one more defensive,a wide player and a back-up left back would do it.
 
StaunchEnclosure said:
They've had the luxury of building a winning mentality over the last 8 years. That's all Celtic know and that's why they cannot fathom a challange from anywhere. It's almost disrespect if people say there is a title race.

We don't have this and we are starved of success. That's pressure. It's like a giant holding a child's head with their arm and the kid eager to get what the giant is holding.

It's fucking sickening that we keep failing.
Click to expand...
Only we are to blame for our own failure, the money they spend has no bearing on when we drop the ball.

looking at them from below and saying it’s ok because they have more money won’t help our cause. We have to focus only on getting better.
 
Walters80 said:
To be honest when you spend circa £20,000,000 in transfer fees alone in a league in which the average fees (outside of us and them) tend to be around 50 to 150 thousand we shouldn’t be dropping 8 points in short space of time to Aberdeen, Kilmarnock and Hearts. Yes over the course of a season we’ll have bad games and drop points but to completely collapse from a good position two seasons in a row isn’t good enough.

We’ve also signed around 35 players so if the squad isn’t good enough you’ve got to look at the signing policy.
Click to expand...
The club clearly have looked at the signing policy. That's why the director of football is away, and a new person in to replace him.
 
The progress under Gerrard has been huge. Previously we had managers massively outspending Aberdeen yet finishing behind them.

Now we are behind celtic who hugely outspent us. Some fans seem to demand miracles from Gerrard. He's up against a good celtic team who spend millions more than us and have won everything domestically for years.

Then you have his European progress which has been exceptional.

But of course Gerrard isn't bulletproof. His signings have largely been good. But the reality is if he fails to win any silverware for an extended period then he's probably gone, whether he decides it or not.
 
ElBarrileteCosmico said:
The progress under Gerrard has been huge. Previously we had managers massively outspending Aberdeen yet finishing behind them.

Now we are behind celtic who hugely outspent us. Some fans seem to demand miracles from Gerrard. He's up against a good celtic team who spend millions more than us and have won everything domestically for years.

Then you have his European progress which has been exceptional.

But of course Gerrard isn't bulletproof. His signings have largely been good. But the reality is if he fails to win any silverware for an extended period then he's probably gone, whether he decides it or not.
Click to expand...
We are 12 points behind a Neil Lennon managed team
 
Sutton_Blows_goats said:
We are 12 points behind a Neil Lennon managed team
Click to expand...
A Neil Lennon managed team who have dropped points in 3 games this season.

Not sure why I am bothering to be honest. There is an element on here who are just gonna hit out with "celtic are pure shite man" regardless. The same goes for everyone one of their players etc.
 
ElBarrileteCosmico said:
A Neil Lennon managed team who have dropped points in 3 games this season.

Not sure why I am bothering to be honest. There is an element on here who are just gonna hit out with "celtic are pure shite man" regardless. The same goes for everyone one of their players etc.
Click to expand...
They are not pure shite at all, they are a very good team. But Neil Lennon has a proven track record as manager. That track record is not some all encompassing god tier manager. Its actually failing at Bolton and being mediocre at Hibs.

My biggest regret is we dont put pressure on them. We are good enough IMO we just lack the character.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Latest posts

Back
Top