Clubs going to the wall

iaatpies

Well-Known Member
Hardly lazy nonsense.
St Mirren have an average attendance of around 4500
Morton just shy of 2000

Thats 6000 say for one club, halving the expenses - selling off the land at Cappielow and thus going into a healthy financial state as St Mirren still operate in the black.

Thats just one area, you then look at the other regions and could suggest the same for quite a few regions.
Lowering the amount of clubs, and leagues. Creating a tighter pack with hopefully less of a spread of income from TV rights etc means ideally more income for said new entity which allows them to be more competitive.

Thats not how it works.

St Mirren fans and Morton fans hate each other. The idea that you'd suddenly get the combined support of St Mirren and Morton turning up for Paisley/Inverclyde Bastardised FC is absolute nonsense based on a contemptable arrogance that fans of lower league or provincial clubs can't possibly love them the same way that you love Rangers.

It's a complete non starter. Reality is that those 6500 fans would walk away from the game for the most part. A few hundred would follow their local West of Scotland League side, but most would simply give up on football.

Lower league clubs get a pittance in prize money. The financial boost to a merged team would be minimal.
 

stu1873

Active Member
Staying up in the north east and knowing the hatred Aberdeen fans have for us, I would love for them to go bust!!
 

Barryhopez

Well-Known Member
Hardly lazy nonsense.
St Mirren have an average attendance of around 4500
Morton just shy of 2000

Thats 6000 say for one club, halving the expenses - selling off the land at Cappielow and thus going into a healthy financial state as St Mirren still operate in the black.

Thats just one area, you then look at the other regions and could suggest the same for quite a few regions.
Lowering the amount of clubs, and leagues. Creating a tighter pack with hopefully less of a spread of income from TV rights etc means ideally more income for said new entity which allows them to be more competitive.

I hope to goodness you are not in charge of any forward planning in your real life. That is quite frankly, a stupid post.

In fact, that's harsh here are x6000 :D
 

The Dude

Well-Known Member
Hardly lazy nonsense.
St Mirren have an average attendance of around 4500
Morton just shy of 2000

Thats 6000 say for one club, halving the expenses - selling off the land at Cappielow and thus going into a healthy financial state as St Mirren still operate in the black.

Thats just one area, you then look at the other regions and could suggest the same for quite a few regions.
Lowering the amount of clubs, and leagues. Creating a tighter pack with hopefully less of a spread of income from TV rights etc means ideally more income for said new entity which allows them to be more competitive.

You'd be lucky to get 600.

Would you support Glasgow United if they merged us and Celtic?
 

YOGI_GER

Well-Known Member
Thats not how it works.

St Mirren fans and Morton fans hate each other. The idea that you'd suddenly get the combined support of St Mirren and Morton turning up for Paisley/Inverclyde Bastardised FC is absolute nonsense based on a contemptable arrogance that fans of lower league or provincial clubs can't possibly love them the same way that you love Rangers.

It's a complete non starter. Reality is that those 6500 fans would walk away from the game for the most part. A few hundred would follow their local West of Scotland League side, but most would simply give up on football.

Lower league clubs get a pittance in prize money. The financial boost to a merged team would be minimal.

Morton fans would just go to Parkhead.....
 

TheBlueBlazerV3

Well-Known Member
Thats not how it works.

St Mirren fans and Morton fans hate each other. The idea that you'd suddenly get the combined support of St Mirren and Morton turning up for Paisley/Inverclyde Bastardised FC is absolute nonsense based on a contemptable arrogance that fans of lower league or provincial clubs can't possibly love them the same way that you love Rangers.

It's a complete non starter. Reality is that those 6500 fans would walk away from the game for the most part. A few hundred would follow their local West of Scotland League side, but most would simply give up on football.

Lower league clubs get a pittance in prize money. The financial boost to a merged team would be minimal.
The reality is these fans are far more hardcore than OF fans, 100%. They hate each other so much that the supporters clubs hold after match knees ups for eachother after each game... thats a Danny Dyer Footballs Deadliest Rivalries episode waiting to happen!
As for a minimal amount of a raise in income, it depends on your depiction of minimal?
If these fans, who are literally loyal to the core, were given the option of St Morton or bye bye both clubs due to financial ruin, I am pretty sure the majority at an EGM would vote to coincide for the greater good.
As for my love of Rangers vs their love of their club. I would suggest that the average Andy that turns up to watch St Mirren flirt with relegation each season, watch dross every week for the odd glimmer of victory is a far greater fan of their club than the 50odd thousand that turn up to see success on a weekly basis, then wilt down to the 40s, 30s and even 20 thousands when the games were literally dross at the end of Super’s reign.
 

TheBlueBlazerV3

Well-Known Member
You'd be lucky to get 600.

Would you support Glasgow United if they merged us and Celtic?
Their is a real burning hatred between us, not a local rivalry.
were it to be the case that we went to the wall and merged with Thistle into Partick Rangers or Rangers Thistle, then yes I would be there loyally.
 

iaatpies

Well-Known Member
The reality is these fans are far more hardcore than OF fans, 100%. They hate each other so much that the supporters clubs hold after match knees ups for eachother after each game... thats a Danny Dyer Footballs Deadliest Rivalries episode waiting to happen!
As for a minimal amount of a raise in income, it depends on your depiction of minimal?
If these fans, who are literally loyal to the core, were given the option of St Morton or bye bye both clubs due to financial ruin, I am pretty sure the majority at an EGM would vote to coincide for the greater good.
As for my love of Rangers vs their love of their club. I would suggest that the average Andy that turns up to watch St Mirren flirt with relegation each season, watch dross every week for the odd glimmer of victory is a far greater fan of their club than the 50odd thousand that turn up to see success on a weekly basis, then wilt down to the 40s, 30s and even 20 thousands when the games were literally dross at the end of Super’s reign.

So in other words it's lazy nonsense.

Fans would rather see their clubs gone for good than support some nonsense that was thrown together for the benefit of somebody else's balance sheet.
 

TQ3

Well-Known Member
Any and all of those who stuck the knife in to us in 2012. Most of the lower leagues were very welcoming, and many proud to host Rangers. I’d hope they find a way to survive.
 

iaatpies

Well-Known Member
Their is a real burning hatred between us, not a local rivalry.
were it to be the case that we went to the wall and merged with Thistle into Partick Rangers or Rangers Thistle, then yes I would be there loyally.

If Rangers had went out of business in 2012 and the only option was selling Ibrox and merging Thistle then I really doubt that you'd be a regular at Firhill for the new merged team. I doubt you'd follow Partick Rangers.
 

The Dude

Well-Known Member
Their is a real burning hatred between us, not a local rivalry.
were it to be the case that we went to the wall and merged with Thistle into Partick Rangers or Rangers Thistle, then yes I would be there loyally.

St Mirren and Morton fans loathe each other.
 

TheBlueBlazerV3

Well-Known Member
I hope to goodness you are not in charge of any forward planning in your real life. That is quite frankly, a stupid post.

In fact, that's harsh here are x6000 :D
In what way is it a stupid post?
Its all hypothetical, except for the St Midden fan (expecting a slap from him) sitting 2m away from me in work (as I look out to the South Stand of St Mirren Park) and his actual opinion of what he would vote in the situation.
 

TheBlueBlazerV3

Well-Known Member
If Rangers had went out of business in 2012 and the only option was selling Ibrox and merging Thistle then I really doubt that you'd be a regular at Firhill for the new merged team. I doubt you'd follow Partick Rangers.
Why do you doubt that? Based on your extensive knowledge of my loyalties? Lol
I sat at Ibrox vs Livingston in Dec 2014 with around 20,000 others on what can only be described as Baltic conditions watching dross where you could hear a pin drop, whilst the other 30,000 seats were sat empty.
 

iaatpies

Well-Known Member
Why do you doubt that? Based on your extensive knowledge of my loyalties? Lol
I sat at Ibrox vs Livingston in Dec 2014 with around 20,000 others on what can only be described as Baltic conditions watching dross where you could hear a pin drop, whilst the other 30,000 seats were sat empty.

Because if you're loyal to Rangers then the idea of a merged new club would be an absolute turn off.

You'd follow a new club that wasn't Rangers? Really? For some reason my chin just got incredibly itchy.
 

TheBlueBlazerV3

Well-Known Member
So in other words it's lazy nonsense.

Fans would rather see their clubs gone for good than support some nonsense that was thrown together for the benefit of somebody else's balance sheet.
This based on your opinion, which would be viewed as even lazier as I have actually canvassed an opinion of said fan, looked at their average attendances etc.
 

Coisty09

Well-Known Member
Official Ticketer
Before the lower leagues had agreed a plan to return for a shortened 27 game season, it would have been possible to mothball the lower leagues for the whole of the 20/21 season. Clubs typically sign players to single season contracts so when those contracts exhausted then the opportunity was there to keep clubs going with minimal funding and to restart when we could get fans in grounds. Unfortunately the lower leagues have assembled squads on the basis of an October start so we're looking at the completely unknown prospect of streaming games as the main source of income for lower league sides. There are plenty of potential issues around the streaming platform and whether or not fans will embrace paid streaming to watch lower league football? It's a big unknown and something that clubs need to get to grips with fast.

In terms of the bigger question about the number of clubs in Scotland, it's the same unfounded arguments made by the same people. Fewer clubs is somehow seen as being in the interest of our game. Its never actually explained why a cull of teams would benefit Scottish football. Prize money is so low in the lower leagues that going from 42 to 32 teams would put no more than about £80k extra in the coffers of the remaining 32 teams. The fans of the lost 10 teams wouldn't find other clubs to follow. Albion Rovers might only have a few hundred fans but close them down and you're not going to see those few hundred suddenly start supporting Airdrie. Merge the 4 Angus clubs and you wouldn't get the combined support of all 4 teams. Merging teams rarely works. Our most recent attempt at it? Inverness Caley Thistle are disliked in Inverness and enjoy a lower public support than neighbouring Ross County.

Those in favour of a cull routinely fail to answer the basic question as to what they'd have done on a Saturday afternoon if Whyte had killed Rangers? If the worst had happened then would 50,000 bears suddenly start following their local team? Would fans start going to watch Queens Park, Edinburgh City or Peterhead? Stirling Albion perhaps? Falkirk or St Johnstone surely? Maybe Motherwell or Dundee? Or would the 50,000 who go to home games and the countless others who follow from home simply have walked away from football? Culling teams doesnt work. The problem with football in Scotland is that the general public have fallen out of love with the game. The answer to that isnt killing off teams. The answer has to be attracting people back to the sport. We need to challenge the perception that Scottish football isnt worth watching. The skill level might not be up there with the best in the world but that doesnt mean that games can't be entertaining. Scottish grounds might not be modern arenas but that doesnt mean that people shouldn't go along to their local ground. My old man took me to games during the 1980s and 90s until he died in 1995 and some of the best memories I have were the time I spent with my dad at the football - how many families go along to games these days? How many kids are making those kinds of memories with their parents, grandparents or other relatives? How many kids go along to the football on a saturday afternoon with their friends? The Terrace did a piece about a group of kids who started going to Dumbarton home games and the response on social media was massive. Everybody was quick to post that it was great to see kids following a local team with nothing more than the enjoyment of spending time together and having a laugh in mind. How does Scottish football encourage more of that? More kids. More families. More people who might otherwise be priced out of football or who may be unable to attend the biggest of games due to health concerns. Older fans. Fans with disabilities. Community football clubs do a hell of a lot to try and keep the game accessible for people and they deserve far more than to be thrown on the scrap heap to satisfy the whims of fans of a handful of big clubs.

We need to protect community football clubs. We need these places to make football accessible for fans. We need them to make football accessible for young players. We need to recognise the part that a community club can play in it's home area - providing facilities for the community, supporting local groups or projects and making the game as accessible as possible. The last thing we need is to see communities lose their football team. Doesnt matter if a team has 50,000 fans or 500 - everybody who follows their club and loves the game deserves far more respect than to see their club written off as worthless.
I fundamentally disagree.
If teams cannot get sufficient support, let them die or become full amateur.
Only viable organisations should survive this.
If we had died after Whyte, we would be a new smaller club but still probably viable.
We might have had to find a new home but the odds are we would still be going and would have a substantial support but nothing like we have now.
 

daven37

Well-Known Member
As the only professional club left, we would be invited into another league. Money and TV run football.

Come on mate.

We would be dragged down as well if Scottish football crumbled around us.

And where do you think we would end up - the very bottom tier of English football?

We would lose all our players and it would be highly unlikely Gerrard and his team would hang around.

We would have at least 10 years at get anywhere near the top of the English game which would not be easy.

After what happened in 2012 would fans be prepared to go through it all again? To be honest, yes I would and you yourself probably would but I am sure many others would have had enough.
 

TheBlueBlazerV3

Well-Known Member
Because if you're loyal to Rangers then the idea of a merged new club would be an absolute turn off.

You'd follow a new club that wasn't Rangers? Really?
Lets not get into the new club debate, if we were, in 2012, forced to close with no access to the “history” that goes with the club - and Sandy Jardine/John Brown etc decided to start an amatuer Rangers FC in some form, you wouldnt have followed? Or they sat down with partick and brokered a deal to merge, you’d have spent your Saturdays pruning your roses instead? Really?
 

TheBlueBlazerV3

Well-Known Member
Given that I spent 5 years on the board of a lower league supporters trust, I reckon I've got a decent handle on how the lower leagues would view mergers and club closures.
Its unprecedented times, challenges no business or fan has ever faced. Prior opinions only hold so much water (as does my hypothetical theory)
 

iaatpies

Well-Known Member
Lets not get into the new club debate, if we were, in 2012, forced to close with no access to the “history” that goes with the club - and Sandy Jardine/John Brown etc decided to start an amatuer Rangers FC in some form, you wouldnt have followed? Or they sat down with partick and brokered a deal to merge, you’d have spent your Saturdays pruning your roses instead? Really?

I wouldnt follow a reformed amateur Rangers because it wouldn't be Rangers.
 

The Dude

Well-Known Member
Given that I spent 5 years on the board of a lower league supporters trust, I reckon I've got a decent handle on how the lower leagues would view mergers and club closures.

I work in football media and work really closely with a number of clubs in the four divisions - none of them would be in favour of local mergers. Most I've ever discussed it with think it would only serve to drive fans away from Scottish football completely and kill off what is left. 'Merged' clubs would have virtually no support in their local areas and the diehard supporters who are the one largely keeping them afloat wouldn't put another penny in.
 

Papac

Well-Known Member
Thats not how it works.

St Mirren fans and Morton fans hate each other. The idea that you'd suddenly get the combined support of St Mirren and Morton turning up for Paisley/Inverclyde Bastardised FC is absolute nonsense based on a contemptable arrogance that fans of lower league or provincial clubs can't possibly love them the same way that you love Rangers.

It's a complete non starter. Reality is that those 6500 fans would walk away from the game for the most part. A few hundred would follow their local West of Scotland League side, but most would simply give up on football.

Lower league clubs get a pittance in prize money. The financial boost to a merged team would be minimal.

I've posted this point on here often enough but success means fans. PSG lost however many with their merger and their stadium is full now. ICT attendances are higher than the two previous teams and again rises and falls in line with their relative success. The feelings of a few hundred yokels doesn't have any real significance. Especially when by and large they were the same ones most giddy about our 'demise'.
 

iaatpies

Well-Known Member
I work in football media and work really closely with a number of clubs in the four divisions - none of them would be in favour of local mergers. Most I've ever discussed it with think it would only serve to drive fans completely away from Scottish football completely and kill off what is left. 'Merged' clubs would have virtually no support in their local areas and the diehard supporters who are the one largely keeping them afloat wouldn't put another penny in.

The general consensus amongst lower league fans is that they'd consider walking away from football if colt teams were allowed in the league. Attendances at cup games featuring colt teams are rock bottom. Far too many Rangers and Celtic fans just dont accept that fans of lower league or provincial clubs love their teams as much as any Rangers or Celtic fan. It's massively disrespectful.
 

The Dude

Well-Known Member
I've posted this point on here often enough but success means fans. PSG lost however many with their merger and their stadium is full now. ICT attendances are higher than the two previous teams and again rises and falls in line with their relative success. The feelings of a few hundred yokels doesn't have any real meaning.

PSG's merger lasted less than five years.
 
What will be will be. If they die they die.
Wasn’t that that the attitude towards us in 2012?
Remember it being I hope they die.
No sympathy from me for any of them.
 

Barryhopez

Well-Known Member
In what way is it a stupid post?
Its all hypothetical, except for the St Midden fan (expecting a slap from him) sitting 2m away from me in work (as I look out to the South Stand of St Mirren Park) and his actual opinion of what he would vote in the situation.

Merge St Mirren and Morton as a club and all the fans will just follow the new club. Look what happened with Inverness?

Hypothetically what would you do if UEFA said "ok, we're getting rid of the diddy clubs as they provide little competition, in Scotland we'll merge Celtic and Rangers to compete in the CL."

Would you be all for it?
 

iaatpies

Well-Known Member
I've posted this point on here often enough but success means fans. PSG lost however many with their merger and their stadium is full now. ICT attendances are higher than the two previous teams and again rises and falls in line with their relative success. The feelings of a few hundred yokels doesn't have any real meaning.

Once the novelty of Caley Thistle wore off, a lot of fans stopped going. Support for the team now is far lower than support for neighbouring Ross County.
 

The Dude

Well-Known Member
The general consensus amongst lower league fans is that they'd consider walking away from football if colt teams were allowed in the league. Attendances at cup games featuring colt teams are rock bottom. Far too many Rangers and Celtic fans just dont accept that fans of lower league or provincial clubs love their teams as much as any Rangers or Celtic fan. It's massively disrespectful.
Totally agree and I'm someone who will champion Colts in the league. It's the same with this idea most fans/clubs lean one way or the other with the Old Firm. Most folk at other clubs couldn't give a flying one about either of us and are only interested in their club.
 

Bigcol1969

Well-Known Member
Official Ticketer
Ross County and Inverness just because it's a nightmare to drive there.

St Mirren......hate them
Dundee United....hate them
Partick Thistle.....fans are arseholes.

Obviously the beasts and the sheep but unfortunately I don't see that happening.
 

Papac

Well-Known Member
Higher than it is now? Absolutely.

I meant were the previous teams ever getting more supporters than Ross County for a comparison to be made. ICT attendances rise and fall with their relative positions in the league table. I'm fairly certain it was the case when I looked into it - and to the point above, success (whatever that means to smaller clubs) means fans.
 

iaatpies

Well-Known Member
I meant were the previous teams ever getting more supporters than Ross County for a comparison to be made. ICT attendances rise and fall with their relative positions in the league table. I'm fairly certain it was the case when I looked into it - and to the point above, success (whatever that means to smaller clubs) means fans.

The previous teams were playing in the highland league. It's no comparison.

There was an initial interest when professional football came to Inverness but the locals simply arent interested in following the team these days. Once the novelty wore off, the locals werent interested in the merged side. Long term fans of the 2 original clubs werent interested in following the merged side and those who were recent fans simply stopped going in any kind of number.
 
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