Derby County 'face liquidation' without HMRC concession

Rt. Hon. Bearman said:
Yes but the point I'm making is what is in a British league for the likes of Man City and Liverpool that they don't already get by competing in the EPL and Champions League?

The top darts players broke away because the BDO was mismanaging the professional side of the game and there was a dwindling amount of money available. If they hadn't broken away, darts would have eventually ceased to be a professional sport.

That isn't a problem the EPL has.
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No, but it’s a problem Scottish football has. Also a problem a lot of ‘big fringe’ clubs like Derby, Notts Forest, Millwall, Stoke etc from the championship (who have no chance of getting to the EPL and remaining there) along with teams from League 1 like Ipswich, Sunderland etc.

Could possibly argue for teams that always languish at the bottom of the EPL as well, like Southampton and Norwich
 
The Shadow said:
No, but it’s a problem Scottish football has. Also a problem a lot of ‘big fringe’ clubs like Derby, Notts Forest, Millwall, Stoke etc from the championship (who have no chance of getting to the EPL and remaining there) along with teams from League 1 like Ipswich, Sunderland etc.

Could possibly argue for teams that always languish at the bottom of the EPL as well, like Southampton and Norwich
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Being in the Championship gives you potential access to the EPL. Those clubs aren't going to give that up.

We're more likely to merge into a league with Portuguese, Dutch and Scandinavian clubs than we are with clubs from the lucrative English league system.

English clubs don't need us and they don't need change.
 
HMS.Temple.Garden said:
I believe Derby is only the start, be loads of others in the lower leagues start going.

A few have already went over the last few years. Bury, Scarbrough, Darlington etc.
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Football in England,especially in the lower leagues is dying out. My English team have gone from the championship to National league in just over 10 years. Terrible owner, bad managers and terrible players have contributed to it.
 
Rt. Hon. Bearman said:
£26 million for a side in the second tier of English football shouldn't leave them facing liquidation.

Surely they could arrange to pay off £2-3 million per year?

Could the EFL not help them with it and then claim the money back from Derby via TV revenue (e.g. retaining a share of the TV revenue Derby would otherwise receive?)
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They could but Derby's other creditors might have something to say about it....
 
Bristol_bnose3 said:
They owe HMRC £26m and the administrators want to negotiate that down to a quarter. I'll be stunned if they agree to that. What a massive can of worms it would open.
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But then do they have a vindictive shower of papist bastards, desperately trying trying to conceal a half century old paedophile ring, whipping up a frenzy against them, aided and abetted by a corrupt, bigoted mhedia?
 
JR Ewing said:
Was in it a few years ago for a Darlington v Mansfield match and it did seem crazy to have such a big ground for such small crowds.
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Its mental. A 25,000 capacity stadium for a club whose average was about 5,000. The problem Darlo have is half the town support Newcastle or to a lesser extent Boro and Sunderland. George reynolds fucked the club good and proper with that stadium.
 
Are they past the point of a CVA? I dont see HMRC treating them any differently to us.

Will be interesting to see how the local MP deals with it, among others!

Will also be interesting how Forest fans react. I suspect the differences between them and the tims will only highlight what we already know about the that lot.
 
stoogie said:
Its mental. A 25,000 capacity stadium for a club whose average was about 5,000. The problem Darlo have is half the town support Newcastle or to a lesser extent Boro and Sunderland. George reynolds fucked the club good and proper with that stadium.
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The God of spivs.

The story of him and Darlington is mental.
 
Rt. Hon. Bearman said:
£26 million for a side in the second tier of English football shouldn't leave them facing liquidation.

Surely they could arrange to pay off £2-3 million per year?

Could the EFL not help them with it and then claim the money back from Derby via TV revenue (e.g. retaining a share of the TV revenue Derby would otherwise receive?)
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With the amount of money pouring into their game they should get help from the FA and downsize where needed! Alternatively there is a cigar called hamlet or if only heineken did team league transfers we could do that?
 
Rt. Hon. Bearman said:
£26 million for a side in the second tier of English football shouldn't leave them facing liquidation.

Surely they could arrange to pay off £2-3 million per year?

Could the EFL not help them with it and then claim the money back from Derby via TV revenue (e.g. retaining a share of the TV revenue Derby would otherwise receive?)
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sure i heard that since going into admin they are losing something like a million a week
 
Wait until the media down there add in the Interest and penalty charges. Looking at 100 million easy. (as per the Daily Record and ourselves).
 
Just out of interest, is there a final figure yet for our Oldco's actual liability to HMRC? Or is it still ongoing with the liquidators? I'm sure it was due to be nowhere near the amount being speculated by the media (which effectively stopped anybody other than Whyte from buying us).
 
Aww Skew said:
Thing is, there’s so many English clubs living outwith their means at the moment. If HMRC do a deal with Derby they’ll leave themselves open in the future which will come back to bite HMRC on the arse

Tricky one
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Players' wages killing the game.

I see Dr Rashford MBE has been using an offshore account to give himself a loan instead of paying tax. That's rich of him considering he cost the tax payers 1.3 million times £20 per week to feed the "starving" children.
 
stoogie said:
Its mental. A 25,000 capacity stadium for a club whose average was about 5,000. The problem Darlo have is half the town support Newcastle or to a lesser extent Boro and Sunderland. George reynolds fucked the club good and proper with that stadium.
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The plan was to turn the club into a Premier League team but it never happened in part because Reynolds was a fantasist. Had they done it right though there is a large fanbase there who might well have supported Darlo rather than Boro and maybe even the skunks. Very few Makems in Darlo to be honest.
 
JR Ewing said:
Was in it a few years ago for a Darlington v Mansfield match and it did seem crazy to have such a big ground for such small crowds.
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I think I drove passed that stadium coming back from York and had to check it out on Google earth when I got home, very strange & what a waste.
 
Feel for the Derby fans in all of this … it will be interesting to see how strong the precedent they set with us holds up though
 
English football is due a reckoning. The whole lot of it is built on sand. It’s an unsustainable mess. The 3 English football league tables have been defined by asterisks and points deductions for years and it’s getting rapidly worse.

When the ESL gets rebadged, represented to us and given the green light (and it absolutely will next time), there is going to have to be an enourmous rethink of the league structure in England. It wouldn’t surprise me if Scottish clubs are looped in with that at some level either.
 
JR Ewing said:
Was in it a few years ago for a Darlington v Mansfield match and it did seem crazy to have such a big ground for such small crowds.
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Was it not like, 25k or something?

I know it could do concerts or rugby but Im not sure any c*nt wants to go to Darlington for a funeral, never mind a fun time.
 
There is a Rangers/Derby fan gets on HandH, Tess who seems a good guy, it is the normal died in the wool punters that suffer most, remember our dramas when some days it seemed we would be wiped out, what a feeling that was.
 
No axe to grind with Derby County, and though it’s unlikely they’ll ever disappear, it’s a shame for a historic club and their loyal supporters that they are dragged into this position either through unscrupulous owners or just because of the financial pressure to keep up with the crowd of clubs living beyond their means. Anyway, if they are given preferential treatment it will just reinforce my contempt of HMRC and the shadowy figures in their ranks who pushed for severe penalties for us.
 
LOL 133 said:
Players' wages killing the game.

I see Dr Rashford MBE has been using an offshore account to give himself a loan instead of paying tax. That's rich of him considering he cost the tax payers 1.3 million times £20 per week to feed the "starving" children.
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Yes and the cheeky git wants all us joe public to pay for free school meals for all kids everywhere very good of him,if someone has a few kids and cant feed them thats there problem dont have them its all our fault the working man Mr Rashford wants me to pay for it out my salary while he earns millions brilliant.
And by the way i wasnt brought up flush but my old man worked and made sure we where feed same as i do not to feed everyone elses kids.
 
All the money sloshing about the Premier League paying exorbitant salaries etc.

Yet they could allow a historic club like Derby County to go to the wall.

Something rotten in the state of football.
 
Bear Of Yorkshire said:
English football is due a reckoning. The whole lot of it is built on sand. It’s an unsustainable mess. The 3 English football league tables have been defined by asterisks and points deductions for years and it’s getting rapidly worse.

When the ESL gets rebadged, represented to us and given the green light (and it absolutely will next time), there is going to have to be an enourmous rethink of the league structure in England. It wouldn’t surprise me if Scottish clubs are looped in with that at some level either.
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There is a mountain of debt that gets too easily overlooked when discussing the finances there. There are, always, economic "corrections" at some point where such unsustainable factors arise, and it will be interesting how this plays out eventually.
 
JMCK said:
There is a mountain of debt that gets too easily overlooked when discussing the finances there. There are, always, economic "corrections" at some point where such unsustainable factors arise, and it will be interesting how this plays out eventually.
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See Barcelona as just one recent example.

Around £1.2 billion in debt ffs
 
HMS.Temple.Garden said:
www.nottinghampost.com

Reds' rivals Derby County 'face liquidation' without HMRC concession

Nottingham Forest's bitter rivals have been in administration for 10 weeks and are rock bottom of the Championship
www.nottinghampost.com www.nottinghampost.com
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Their administrator says "We will agree a deal. HMRC will recognise that the club is insolvent. They have seen our numbers, we will go back with some more detail, they will know full well the club is not in a position to pay that debt in full but what they will hopefully realise is that the offer that is made to them will be better than what they would get in the event the club folded."

Hope he knows that HMRC doesn't do deals (unless you're Arsenal) and that this £26M debt will very soon be over £100M when they add late payment fees and penalties.

That's how it works right? :mad:
 
The Blue Iceberg said:
Their administrator says "We will agree a deal. HMRC will recognise that the club is insolvent. They have seen our numbers, we will go back with some more detail, they will know full well the club is not in a position to pay that debt in full but what they will hopefully realise is that the offer that is made to them will be better than what they would get in the event the club folded."

Hope he knows that HMRC doesn't do deals (unless you're Arsenal) and that this £26M debt will very soon be over £100M when they add late payment fees and penalties.

That's how it works right? :mad:
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We were in a unique situation

1. HMRC had serious issues with Craig Whyte going back years, if not decades

2. There was an agenda at play, or at the very least pressure from outwith, to nail us with the maximum they could

I would be surprised if they didn’t offer derby a deal in all honesty, it’s whether it’s an offer they know can’t be met or one to be met.

The thing that angers me is we will never get to the bottom of number 2 above, as journalists were happy to peddle the HRMC lines, they were wishing got HRMC to burst us and as such we’re actively helping them get the messages out , whereas no journalist was willing to actually bring up legitimate concerns or previous actions that HRMC had went through that contradicted there whole stance with us.
 
BoyInRoyalBlue said:
We were in a unique situation

1. HMRC had serious issues with Craig Whyte going back years, if not decades

2. There was an agenda at play, or at the very least pressure from outwith, to nail us with the maximum they could

I would be surprised if they didn’t offer derby a deal in all honesty, it’s whether it’s an offer they know can’t be met or one to be met.

The thing that angers me is we will never get to the bottom of number 2 above, as journalists were happy to peddle the HRMC lines, they were wishing got HRMC to burst us and as such we’re actively helping them get the messages out , whereas no journalist was willing to actually bring up legitimate concerns or previous actions that HRMC had went through that contradicted there whole stance with us.
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They set a precedent with Rangers of which there is no going back. I don't doubt for a single second the background of those who architected our demise but HMRC put their stamp on it, and leave themselves wide open to legal recourse should the goalposts be moved in this case. I sincerely hope those in power at the club are watching this whole situation very closely.
 
BoyInRoyalBlue said:
We were in a unique situation

1. HMRC had serious issues with Craig Whyte going back years, if not decades

2. There was an agenda at play, or at the very least pressure from outwith, to nail us with the maximum they could

I would be surprised if they didn’t offer derby a deal in all honesty, it’s whether it’s an offer they know can’t be met or one to be met.

The thing that angers me is we will never get to the bottom of number 2 above, as journalists were happy to peddle the HRMC lines, they were wishing got HRMC to burst us and as such we’re actively helping them get the messages out , whereas no journalist was willing to actually bring up legitimate concerns or previous actions that HRMC had went through that contradicted there whole stance with us.
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I wish Derby County and their fans no harm whatsoever. If, however, HMRC does not apply the same criteria to their case as they applied to Rangers then it will be absolutely shameful! I read what you said about HMRC having had "issues" with Whyte and that there "was an agenda at play" with regard to Rangers. HMRC and every government minister and official, regardless of political party, would deny that. Back in 2012 and 2013 I corresponded with a few of them about our situation and they were at pains to state that HMRC were applying the rules. Regardless of who the individuals or businesses are, those rules are not discriminatory. Therefore they cannot apply them any differently to Derby. If HMRC is their main creditor then they have to apply the same sanctions upon them as they did to our Oldco. If they do not then there should be a request for a public inquiry.
 
Bluethruandthru said:
They set a precedent with Rangers of which there is no going back. I don't doubt for a single second the background of those who architected our demise but HMRC put their stamp on it, and leave themselves wide open to legal recourse should the goalposts be moved in this case. I sincerely hope those in power at the club are watching this whole situation very closely.
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No one is going to sue HRMC, Or take any action if they act differently, and even if that did happen, nothing would actually come of it.
 
Do they actually owe £26m to HMRC or is this the figure those half-witted morons that work there have calculated to be revised years later after investigation?
 
No axe to grind with Derby and feel for any fans put in this position - but as well as a dodgy owner, can’t help thinking they’ve brought this on themselves. Read a few weeks ago when their 21 point penalty was imposed that their captain, Tom Lawrence, had a new 5 year contract at £37k per week. That is mental.
 
BoyInRoyalBlue said:
No one is going to sue HRMC, Or take any action if they act differently, and even if that did happen, nothing would actually come of it.
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Given their point blank refusal to resolve our financial issues by way of an alternative solution, why in your opinion would our board rule that out if another club are offered different terms?
 
Bluethruandthru said:
Given their point blank refusal to resolve our financial issues by way of an alternative solution, why in your opinion would our board rule that out if another club are offered different terms?
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Our board would because it has nothing to do with them, it would have to come from old oldco shareholders

And if it ever came to it, which after legal advice I’d imagine it wouldn’t, HMRC would just be going with the line that all all cases are different, and they will be able to prove it,
Different amounts owed, different reasons for money owed, different %s of debt owed to them, they can point to different circumstances in Whyte refusing to pay the small case etc - it’s basically going to come down to HMrc saying that it isn’t a one case fits all decisions, and no court in the land is going to go against them on it.

You need to have HMRC over the table, pants pulled down and legs spread before you have a chance as a Company or shareholders trying to take them for millions - the only way to get something is essentially for them to come to an agreement on accepting negligence, which they won’t ever do.

As much as we all know other forces were working certain HMRC parties from the back, as soon as Kennedy and Murray walked away from the table any chance of us winning anything against HMRC was gone.
 
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