Does clement need to win the final

He has to at least the very least have the team battling and different ideas or he will be gone . If the insanity of trying the same old same old he will be gone .
 
SDF said:
There was a genuine argument that this time around we could've held fire, took our time and completely rebuilt the footballing structure at the club and appointed a manager at the end of the season(or even announced him mid season to take charge in the summer). The mess Beale and the board caused in the summer virtually called for it.

That Clement came in and for five months had us dreaming of what seemed impossible when he arrived is a huge plus point for him. Not a lot of managers could've done it.

TBH I think fans are so pigsick of this squad that they're almost willing to ignore or excuse failings on the managers part lately. Perfectly understandable but doesn't do us any favours.

The leadership group are done here. But as a team we look a riot tactically and in terms of structure. How many times did Celtic waltz through us as if we weren't there yesterday ? That can't just be on the players. Neither can the amount of times we just long in the corners with diagonals be all on them. It's got to be instructional.

I guess your perception on whose fault that is depends on where you stand. For me, it's both.
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Where I struggle though is the folk shouting loudest about the manager are also scathing of pretty much all the players. They would pretty much chase all of them yet in the meantime Clement is to take them and mould them into treble winners?

Clement did himself no favours yesterday, it was one of those occasions where there was basically total unanimity across the support about beefing up the midfield and he didn't do it, all the concerns came to pass pretty much immediately.

Nobody can speak with any certainty on what's changed because nobody really knows, the structure and clean sheets that were evident in November/December have evaporated. The performance levels just aren't there from so many of them, rumours of players being told they're not getting a new deal, cryptic tweets from others etc.

What I will say is Clement as a player and a coach has show a consistent level across a season to win consecutive titles, something none of our players can boast about.
 
CraigMoore3 said:
The problem with that though is when you burn through managers you get a reputation - managers will then only take the job on a long term deal or with terms that include a bumper pay off.
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Its the way management is going these days. Look at Bayern, sacked Nagelsmann and appointed Tuchel only for a year later trying to go and convince Nagelsmann to take the job on again. More and more clubs are going with the Chelsea model of short term head coach appointments and recruitment done by a football board.
 
CraigMoore3 said:
What I will say is Clement as a player and a coach has show a consistent level across a season to win consecutive titles, something none of our players can boast about.
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Absolutely. You just don't get lucky to win a league three times on the trot with two different teams. You need to have something about you to do it. As a manager he clearly does.

I really like Clement as a manager. For five months it seemed not a single thing fazed him and he just kept plugging along, Not too high with victories, not too low with setbacks, not moaning about anything he faced, always finding solutions to the countless problems he encountered.

The last five weeks though it's like a different guy in charge. Everything he did so well has been cast aside. I've no explanation for it. There's no one thing to point to and go "that's it".
 
SDF said:
Absolutely. You just don't get lucky to win a league three times on the trot with two different teams. You need to have something about you to do it. As a manager he clearly does.

I really like Clement as a manager. For five months it seemed not a single thing fazed him and he just kept plugging along, Not too high with victories, not too low with setbacks, not moaning about anything he faced, always finding solutions to the countless problems he encountered.

The last five weeks though it's like a different guy in charge. Everything he did so well has been cast aside. I've no explanation for it. There's no one thing to point to and go "that's it".
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Paul Le Guen won three titles in a row with Lyon but never even got to finish a season with us. I think too many people fall into the trap of thinking managers are either good or bad like players are judged.

Clement is clearly a talented manager but the question is will he get the better of Rodgers and win us a league title as that's the only definition of success at Rangers. Sometimes there isn't any particular reason why it doesn't work out and could just be bad luck.
 
SDF said:
There was a genuine argument that this time around we could've held fire, took our time and completely rebuilt the footballing structure at the club and appointed a manager at the end of the season(or even announced him mid season to take charge in the summer). The mess Beale and the board caused in the summer virtually called for it.

That Clement came in and for five months had us dreaming of what seemed impossible when he arrived is a huge plus point for him. Not a lot of managers could've done it.

TBH I think fans are so pigsick of this squad that they're almost willing to ignore or excuse failings on the managers part lately. Perfectly understandable but doesn't do us any favours.

The leadership group are done here. But as a team we look a riot tactically and in terms of structure. How many times did Celtic waltz through us as if we weren't there yesterday ? That can't just be on the players. Neither can the amount of times we just go long in the corners with diagonals be all on them. It's got to be instructional.

I guess your perception on whose fault that is depends on where you stand. For me, it's both.
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We should have done this. When Beale was sacked I wanted a caretaker manager in to just sit in the dugout until we worked out what the hell was wrong at the root of the football setup.

It would have removed the risk of a new manager developing scar tissue during an already flawed season.

I also desperately did not want us to hand out another 3/4 year contract straight away.

If you want to beat your rivals you need to look at what they do differently and try and emulate some of it. Now people hate the idea of us doing that because it’s them but to ignore it because of “staunchness” is counter productive. So what did they do when it all fell apart? They put John Kennedy in and took a decision to make a permanent appointment in the summer. They then refused to offer more than a one year rolling contract off the bat. Now we laughed when Eddie Howe rejected them but we weren’t laughing once Postecoglou got his side going.

Even Rodgers started on a rolling contract, but according to experts on here every time we need to re-hire, every manager needs multi year security. I don’t get how those two things occur simultaneously.

I’m obviously praying Clement is the man, but if he isn’t and it starts to unravel early I’m also praying we realise this mid season appointment strategy isn’t working.
 
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If we lose the game with a similar starting line up and overall setup then I will be having doubts. If we lose the game after attempting something different I won’t be overly critical as the squad is in a disgraceful condition and we all knew it would implode at one point or another and obviously deserves a transfer window.

If we go into next season with a lot of the current imposters retaining the same key roles then again, doubts quickly for me. It’s upto him how he wants the rest of his time here to go.
 
rex555 said:
How's it "not his squad"? He started in October. How many new managers in any league get a seven month honeymoon period before officially taking responsibility for the squad? Even with the players brought in and injuries to contend with, our starting XI should be strong enough to beat them at least once... especially considering other teams have managed it. I said today's game was a must-win, the next one is no different, only difference being he'll lose confidence going into a long summer if we lose.
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How many of the players has he signed? Clement has only had one window which was a winter one this is Beale’s players. Clement will be judged on next season remarkable that he has got any sort of tune out of these flops but next year it will be his squad after a clear out. Look at any manager they need a summer to clear out the deadwood and bring their players in. Rarely managers go in after a sacking and get success without transfer windows previous manager was sacked for a reason - the players.
 
JMCK said:
I agree, but again we could be in this situation come November. I am not convinced by Clement, but we cannot sack a manager during the season, and it's not great that it seems something that happens if he loses ground in the early part. We need to be clear who leads us next season, and make sure we have that person throughout the season, in my opinion.
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I can’t see us sacking Clement before the end of next season (and I hope we don’t). If he continues to stick with players who continually let’s us down, plays the same bizarre tactics and makes the same strange substitutions then he will be gone by next summer but we absolutely can’t have another mid season appointment.
 
Let's paint 2 scenarios here.
He wins SC, he will of course get the summer to rebuild and will be considered a relative success given injuries etc and how back we were when he came in.

He loses SC. He is then given summer to rebuild and the season is considered a bit of a failure, he then goes into the 1sr old firm game and loses.
Does he then get sacked? And we then have a squad of players bought by another manager.
Is PC beyond criticism and examination?
He got a lot out of failing players and said all the right things at the start. Then as time went in, we started to see the side to side passing again and long balls, not much great football if we're being honest
Then he starts saying some strange things and seems to get suckered in my Rodgers.
Some of his team selection is very weird.
Sat is an example. The definition of madness is yo do the same thing and expect different results.
He's went with a 3 man midfield of 2 holders and a no10 and 2 wingers. Sat was crying out for 3 midfielders who were physical and had legs. Raskin. Diamonde and Sterling. He goes woth a departing Lundstam, Diamonde and the most baffling Lawrence(a player of great skill but not known for his takling and workrate).
Maybe he could have played Lawrence and camtwell as inside forwards instead of wingers and stopped celtics FB from inverting. At least this would have been considered trying something different.

I'm not sure PC is without big faults. I know his effort is unquestionable but I'm not sure he has the tools to turn this around.
If he wins the SC he will be given the rebuild(and so he probably shoukd).
Lose, is his job safe and should it be? I'm not sure.
 
GIO GIO GIO GIOVANNI said:
Losers mentality
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So are you saying that if he loses the cup final with
Cortes out, Jack out, Danilo out, Goldson out, Sima out, Matondo out, and Balogun out, we should sack him?
I’m not saying he hasn’t made mistakes, but we’ve all said this squad is poor. I think we have to give him time because knee jerk reactions don’t tend to work.
 
No.

Celtic are a better team than us. Better players, and better coached.

I have some reservations about Clement, but it's unfair to expect him to overcome them when he's been in the job 6 months and had only 1 window.

Next season I'd expect to see some progress against them, as well as some general progress in how we're set-up.
 
Elric said:
So are you saying that if he loses the cup final with
Cortes out, Jack out, Danilo out, Goldson out, Sima out, Matondo out, and Balogun out, we should sack him?
I’m not saying he hasn’t made mistakes, but we’ve all said this squad is poor. I think we have to give him time because knee jerk reactions don’t tend to work.
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I don't think he will be sacked if he loses the final but is there any evidence that managers turn it round after a bad start with us domestically.

Pedro got given £10m was sacked the following October
Gio got £15m was sacked the following November
Beale got £20m was sacked the following October

The only recent domestic success was Gerrard who came in, narrowly lost his first old firm and then won the next one showing the fans he would get there eventually.

If he wins the cup final it at least shows he has a plan for old firms and we all know in 2 horse race they are the only fixture in Scotland that really matters if you want to win a title.
 
Elric said:
So are you saying that if he loses the cup final with
Cortes out, Jack out, Danilo out, Goldson out, Sima out, Matondo out, and Balogun out, we should sack him?
I’m not saying he hasn’t made mistakes, but we’ve all said this squad is poor. I think we have to give him time because knee jerk reactions don’t tend to work.
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Are you willing to back him if it doesn't start so well next season? He wasn't the man I wanted here, but if he starts the next campaign as manager he has my backing all the way, no matter what. What we can't afford, is changing managers during a season.
 
Cooper68 said:
If we don't win the Cup, his tenure won't last long next season if we also get beaten again at the piggery . We need winners in the manager's chair, 4 losses and one draw against them is not the sign of a winner.
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Exactly this. Rangers managers that lose 4/5 games to them on the trot have never lasted in any era.

And it’s exactly the same on the other side of the city
 
JMCK said:
Are you willing to back him if it doesn't start so well next season? He wasn't the man I wanted here, but if he starts the next campaign as manager he has my backing all the way, no matter what. What we can't afford, is changing managers during a season.
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Yep, he absolutely needs fully backed, chopping and changing managers makes us look like a tin pot shambles of a club.

We hired a guy with a proven track record, hired a new DoF, now we have to give them time to actually build a half decent squad.

The beggars will almost certainly outspend us easily, probably 2 to 1, so it won’t be a simple task
 
Worthy_Candidate said:
Let’s bag another manager and do the same all over again.

That’s worked well.

Clement gets the same time Gerrard did. Not in question. If it’s pish for another year r so, we need to suck it up.
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In 2018 circumstances Clement may have got the 3 years Gerrard did but he won’t now. Gerrard was a huge name and from the off had the fans believing in something. Getting results against Celtic got him there even if trophies didn’t happen.

Fans are all out of patience after almost a decade back in the top flight.

If the shoe was on the the other foot and Rodgers was staring down 4 defeats to us it wouldn’t be any different.
 
Let the dust settle to think about this again.

It’s an absolute must win. Can see Del Boy McInnes being here before Christmas if not, Clement has been found out another PLG.
 
Anyone who thinks our manager should go if we don’t beat Them in the cup final is a mile out imo

The man needs at least 2 more windows to shape his own team
And to be rid of the serial losers and the dross in our team
 
Meiklejohn said:
In 2018 circumstances Clement may have got the 3 years Gerrard did but he won’t now. Gerrard was a huge name and from the off had the fans believing in something. Getting results against Celtic got him there even if trophies didn’t happen.

Fans are all out of patience after almost a decade back in the top flight.

If the shoe was on the the other foot and Rodgers was staring down 4 defeats to us it wouldn’t be any different.
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Aye but there’s a huge difference, Rodgers inherited the best squad in the country and was given a load of cash to spend.

Clement inherited a shambles and has spent very little, 2 loans, 1 of whom got a bad injury, plus Diomande.

The board absolutely need to ignore any noise and stick with him.
 
He needs the summer window and to show a ruthless streak with our failure players in showing them the door. Then he needs judged thereafter. Expecting anything from this current group is delusional.
 
The People said:
Anyone who thinks our manager should go if we don’t beat Them in the cup final is a mile out imo

The man needs at least 2 more windows to shape his own team
And to be rid of the serial losers and the dross in our team
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I partly agree, but we can't deny there is a huge question mark about Clement's ability to manage Rangers if we lose the final, and to suggest there isn't is to deny the obvious. My number one concern right now is what a loss in the final does to affect next season, and we need to ask ourselves now what is best for Rangers rather than make that decision during a season. Will Clement handle even greater pressure next season, for instance? I don't know if he will or not, but we do need a fair idea he will do.
 
JMCK said:
I partly agree, but we can't deny there is a huge question mark about Clement's ability to manage Rangers if we lose the final, and to suggest there isn't is to deny the obvious. My number one concern right now is what a loss in the final does to affect next season, and we need to ask ourselves now what is best for Rangers rather than make that decision during a season. Will Clement handle even greater pressure next season, for instance? I don't know if he will ot not, but we do need to know he will do.
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I don’t mind losing to them as much if it’s purely because the player they have available are better than ours.

It’s the fact that the games under Clement have been Groundhog Day material. It’s either total arrogance, or a concerning lack of ability.
 
I'd argue he needs at least a full season to change the personnel and mindset to an acceptable level

Too many of our fans are flat out ignoring the absolute shitshow that our squad has become - it'll take a couple of windows at least to put it right. If he was to be sacked in November we wont be winning the league next season anyway, so why not give him the entire season
 
ICA_86 said:
I don’t mind losing to them as much if it’s purely because the player they have available are better than ours.

It’s the fact that the games under Clement have been Groundhog Day material. It’s either total arrogance, or a concerning lack of ability.
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If he hasn't won in four old firm games there is going to be major pressure going into next season, without a doubt. The story that followed Beale was that he didn't win the really important games, strangely something you don't hear about Clement, but how long before this becomes the defining feature surrounding Clement? I hope we win the SC anyway, but it's undeniable we need to see us winning it for Clement's sake as well.
 
Granted our option's are limited but if its the exact same line up and set up then I'm going to have serious concerns for next season. If see Lundstram and Lawrence in the middle(or Lundstram at all) then that will be very telling.
 
Clement must be getting worried.
I bet before he took the job on and looked at those players on paper...he'd have maybe given it a second thought if it had a mentality section next to a lot of their names. Spineless bottle merchant would be at most of them.

We ain't winning anything at Hampden, this lot chucked in the towel weeks ago.
 
Barrymoped said:
Aye but there’s a huge difference, Rodgers inherited the best squad in the country and was given a load of cash to spend.

Clement inherited a shambles and has spent very little, 2 loans, 1 of whom got a bad injury, plus Diomande.

The board absolutely need to ignore any noise and stick with him.
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I’m not suggesting we punt Clement but just saying in my view he wont get the time Gerrard did.

As for Clement, and the noise at the moment after a number of old firm losses, it goes with the territory on both sides.

But for everyone’s sake at Rangers, he needs to somehow get a win against them in the cup final.
 
GersFanHutch said:
We should have done this. When Beale was sacked I wanted a caretaker manager in to just sit in the dugout until we worked out what the hell was wrong at the root of the football setup.

It would have removed the risk of a new manager developing scar tissue during an already flawed season.

I also desperately did not want us to hand out another 3/4 year contract straight away.

If you want to beat your rivals you need to look at what they do differently and try and emulate some of it. Now people hate the idea of us doing that because it’s them but to ignore it because of “staunchness” is counter productive. So what did they do when it all fell apart? They put Tony Docherty in and took a decision to make a permanent appointment in the summer. They then refused to offer more than a one year rolling contract off the bat. Now we laughed when Eddie Howe rejected them but we weren’t laughing once Postecoglou got his side going.

Even Rodgers started on a rolling contract, but according to experts on here every time we need to re-hire, every manager needs multi year security. I don’t get how those two things occur simultaneously.

I’m obviously praying Clement is the man, but if he isn’t and it starts to unravel early I’m also praying we realise this mid season appointment strategy isn’t working.
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Postecoglu would've been out a job by Christmas if our board backed Gerrard and we would've been laughing. If our manager can't beat Celtic they are always going to come under intense pressure. I don't think Clement can win the Cup final as too many of our players are terrified of them. When we are looking to recruit new players we have to ask would they get in Celtic's first 11 and if the answer is no then they are not good enough for us. Prior to Gerrard arriving Celtic were looking to win by record margins and had it not been for Butland on Saturday they'd have done so. We had a must win game and I don't recall Hart making a save that's how much we've regressed.
 
If the majority of the players in the team are the same next season then the same thing will happen.

He needs this cup too show he can beat them and is a winner.

He won't be given much time next season if he can't beat them. Gio got us to a European final and was bombed out. Rangers fans are not patient.
 
The problem might not come straight away but if we don’t win it and probably win the match then next season the first bad result everyone will be out with the stats of never beating them and pressure will be on from early doors. Pretty much exactly the same as what happened to Beale. The most pressure will be on the first games in August and into September, one bad result and it could be all that takes.
 
Cooperfan said:
If the majority of the players in the team are the same next season then the same thing will happen.

He needs this cup too show he can beat them and is a winner.

He won't be given much time next season if he can't beat them. Gio got us to a European final and was bombed out. Rangers fans are not patient.
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I don’t think Clement could ever be prepared for the incoming flak of most of this bunch of losers are here next season.
 
The manager doesn't need to win, the players need to win it. Show us they have some respect for us fans and themselves by going out on a high.

They look uninterested, scared and tired all at same time. It won't be on the manager if we don't win. I'm fed up of these players to be honest.
 
Tin man said:
Of course sacking him is mental , we'll
Spend 15m keep Tav and wait till the league is done again first
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If we spend £15m, they are players of Clement and Koppens choosing and we are still floundering this time next year then he will deserve the sack, certainly not before
 
he does not need to win it, but that is 3 old firm games now without a win, if he loses the cup final that would make it 4, the first old firm game of next season will be at their place. No wins in either of those people start pointing out he is 0 wins from 5 and the pressure mounts
 
I have stayed off this since Saturday, are we actually suggesting his job is on the line if we don't win the cup? A guy with one window should be sacked already?
I have no excuses for the Ross Co, Dundee and Motherwell feck ups but deary me we can't just sack every manager within 6 months.
 
BlueSteish said:
He'll be here next season regardless.

Needs to be given a proper summer transfer window and preseason.

FWIW I think we'll beat them in Final.
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So do I, for some strange reason. In fact, I'm very confident. I've got a feeling Celtic think they just have to turn up to win.
 
He needs to win the cup final or lose it deploying a different set up showing that’s he’s learning from the last 3 games.
The red flags come come from playing a similar line up in the same set up and expecting a different result.
 
I find myself 50/50 in the whole thing, yes i do believe he has to win but with the amount of players we have out and players he has to work with its going to be extremely difficult for him
 
For me yes he’s got to win this to feel any sort of confidence moving forward with him. Half the teams chucked it in my opinion but he’s got to get some credit in the bank to carry him into next season.
 
For me no… I have very little confidence that the players we have can deliver another trophy this season… The scum have a fully fit squad and we are absolutely fucked at the moment.. I will judge the manager when he has built his own team that is capable of executing his game plan on the pitch…
 
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