Dutch FA to pilot woman playing in men’s teams

MurtyMania said:
No.

With regards to elite athletes, in track competitions women compare to men as follows:
Top Speed: Women are about 90% as fast as men (100m, 200m, 400m)
Stamina: Again, about 90% (800m, 1500m etc)
Explosiveness: Women about 85% as explosive as men (Long Jump, High Jump, Triple Jump)

There aren't really many events that I can think of that would measure agility.

So ultimately, there's a gap to make up there. But the question is how far down the food chain do you have to go before that 10 - 15% difference is either eliminated or irrelevant? In football, probably not as far down as you think - there are plenty of ways to tactically hide physical shortcomings in football.
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That's at the elite levels of particular traits. Footballers are a jack of all trades with regards to those, so a women would have to be able to compete on all traits, not just 1. The problem being those traits tend to be at the cost of others just as they are with men. Elite sprinters don't have stamina due to their muscle tone. Elite endurance runners have very little muscle tone so would struggle physically and so on....

The question being...and I don't think the women pushing this have quite considered the consequences (it will be men's fault somehow though). With the way the women's game is artificially propped up and financed, would the women playing at the top level be prepared to "drop" to the necessary level in the mens game which would allow them to compete?

Because, let's be honest, the women playing in the swpl for us, Glasgow city etc would be able play Sunday central ams at best.
 
Seem to remember an Italian team tried to sign a female player a few years ago, think it was Perugia? Not sure what happened in the end though.
 
Steve Snedden said:
I’m no fan of Women’s Football but I think this is the way football will go in these gender neutral times.

If women want access to the same wages and recognition then it’s only going to happen if they are good enough to compete with the best of the best no matter what gender Messi and Ronaldo identify as.

Sexual equality either exists or it doesn’t. We can’t claim special dispensation for one industry. We’re not the Catholic Church.

Sexual apartheid in football leaves too many questions unanswered. I don’t know how it is currently but until very recently boys and girls could not play together in organised competitions beyond the age of eleven.
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So what’s to stop a male from playing on a woman’s team? Of course they won’t allow it! That’s when you will see equality and double standards not matter one bit!
 
simply_the_best said:
Both played consecutive sets to a guy ranked 203rd and lost both sets 6 - 2

www.marca.com

Battle of the Sexes: When the World No. 203 swept the Williams sisters - MARCA in English

A great deal of controversy was created recently when former tennis pro John McEnroe claimed that multiple major winner Serena Williams would not be...
www.marca.com www.marca.com

I've also read of a Women's international team losing to a male u16 side.
Click to expand...

Brilliant :D

At the height of the Williams boom in 1998, an unofficial game took place in Australia after Serena and Venus claimed that no male player outside the top 200 could beat them.

Up stepped a German known as Karsten Braasch who was ranked 203rd in the world and after first beating Serena 6-1, he then disposed of Venus 6-2.

"I didn't know it would be that difficult. I played shots that would have been winners on the women's circuit and he got to them very easily," said Serena.

"They wouldn't have had a chance against anyone inside the top 500 because today I played like someone ranked 600th to keep it fun," was Braasch's assessment.
 
Its-Sebo said:
The stats are interesting but totally irrelevant when it comes to football and even then, disregarding 10-15% average performance difference is crazy. I'd be interested to see those numbers when applied to 90 minutes and over the course of a season rather than running for a couple of mins.

While I agree that top-athlete level numbers become a bit less important the further down the food chain you go, the reliance on strength goes up drastically as technical ability is less prevalent – this is the area that will be the main blocker as women transition into men's football.

I'm all for giving everyone a chance and maybe women could thrive, I'd be more than happy to see it, but no amount of time will reduce the physicality gap between men and women.
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But we're not talking about fielding whole teams of women here, we're talking about incorporating one or two into the side. There will be plenty of individual players with similar physical traits who quite easily play mens football.

It's all hypothetical until something actually happens. But I do see a way where it's possible.
 
Allan70 said:
So what’s to stop a male from playing on a woman’s team? Of course they won’t allow it! That’s when you will see equality and double standards not matter one bit!
Click to expand...

I might give it a go. I'm juniors at best in the guys game but I would be balon d'Or winner in the female game.
 
The game should be for anyone. It is hugely unlikely a woman would be able to make it at the top level, but why should there be a blanket ban on women at all levels? If a fantastic female player is able to make a living in the game, she should be allowed.
I suppose an argument could be that the women's game could be binned and football should be equal for everyone, which would be a disaster women players.
 
Women's football is dire. The teams at the bottom of the Scottish or English leagues would beat the world champions.
 
CF3 Bear said:
That's at the elite levels of particular traits. Footballers are a jack of all trades with regards to those, so a women would have to be able to compete on all traits, not just 1. The problem being those traits tend to be at the cost of others just as they are with men. Elite sprinters don't have stamina due to their muscle tone. Elite endurance runners have very little muscle tone so would struggle physically and so on....

The question being...and I don't think the women pushing this have quite considered the consequences (it will be men's fault somehow though). With the way the women's game is artificially propped up and financed, would the women playing at the top level be prepared to "drop" to the necessary level in the mens game which would allow them to compete?

Because, let's be honest, the women playing in the swpl for us, Glasgow city etc would be able play Sunday central ams at best.
Click to expand...
The point was to show that at the top-end, women perform athletically at about 90% the capacity of men. Yes, elite athletes that specialise in a discipline sacrifice most (not all, elite sprinters do retain a degree of endurance) of their other athletic traits to maximise their performance.

Your point goes both ways - yes, they would not be able to focus on one individual trait, but neither would the men.
 
Why is tennis not mixed singles for grand slams then ?

Any womans rugby players in the mens teams?

This will destroy football imo, plough money and resources into womans football and let it compete but joining them will ruin the game.
 
MurtyMania said:
No.

With regards to elite athletes, in track competitions women compare to men as follows:
Top Speed: Women are about 90% as fast as men (100m, 200m, 400m)
Stamina: Again, about 90% (800m, 1500m etc)
Explosiveness: Women about 85% as explosive as men (Long Jump, High Jump, Triple Jump)

There aren't really many events that I can think of that would measure agility.

So ultimately, there's a gap to make up there. But the question is how far down the food chain do you have to go before that 10 - 15% difference is either eliminated or irrelevant? In football, probably not as far down as you think - there are plenty of ways to tactically hide physical shortcomings in football.
Click to expand...

There are numerous examples of boys teams spanking elite women's teams. USA, Australian national teams for example.
 
MurtyMania said:
But we're not talking about fielding whole teams of women here, we're talking about incorporating one or two into the side. There will be plenty of individual players with similar physical traits who quite easily play mens football.

It's all hypothetical until something actually happens. But I do see a way where it's possible.
Click to expand...

Tbh I think there are various sports which should be mixed. Golf, snooker, darts etc which are not reliant on physicality. Sports like football which require an all round athlete are ones which women just cannot compete. Physicality, speed, endurance and skill ALL have to be on point. Women could maybe match 1 or 2 of those but not all 4.
 
MurtyMania said:
Interesting idea.

There's no doubt that the highest levels of the womens game has excellent technique, but most would struggle to compete in physical aspects with men.

No reason that can't change though.
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Every reason that can't change put the 11 best players in the women's game in a team and our youth team that lost too ICT would smash them 99/100 times
 
CF3 Bear said:
Tbh I think there are various sports which should be mixed. Golf, snooker, darts etc which are not reliant on physicality. Sports like football which require an all round athlete are ones which women just cannot compete. Physicality, speed, endurance and skill ALL have to be on point. Women could maybe match 1 or 2 of those but not all 4.
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There are a lot of football players, including some who play for our club, who come nowhere close to matching all four either.

This is the point - no one is saying a woman could waltz into the Juventus starting line up. But a Serie B team? A Ligue 2 team? Hell, even a lower-end Scottish Premiership team? Maybe.

This thread is full of comparisons of all-female teams versus all-male teams in multiple sports, but these people fail to acknowledge that this is not the proposal.
 
MurtyMania said:
The point was to show that at the top-end, women perform athletically at about 90% the capacity of men. Yes, elite athletes that specialise in a discipline sacrifice most (not all, elite sprinters do retain a degree of endurance) of their other athletic traits to maximise their performance.

Your point goes both ways - yes, they would not be able to focus on one individual trait, but neither would the men.
Click to expand...
But that's where the men don't have to, it's natural. That's the point. Women could be "freaks of nature" for lack of a better term and compete on one of those traits, but not all.

Take me for example Vs an elite level female footballer. If I go to the gym and workout for 6 months, I will be in better all round physical condition than any female footballer that's ever lived. And I'm just an average guy.
 
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Ke55y said:
Every reason that can't change put the 11 best players in the women's game in a team and our youth team that lost too ICT would smash them 99/100 times
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What relevance does that have to incorporating some female players into a mens team?

The mens team in your scenario would win based on strength alone. That's true - but the same principle would apply if they faced a team of 11 Barrie McKays too.
 
No danger!!
then they’ll put a minimum of how many should play in first team per game no doubt, even tho they will never be able to compete with men and quality of the game will nose dive if that happened imo
 
MurtyMania said:
There are a lot of football players, including some who play for our club, who come nowhere close to matching all four either.

This is the point - no one is saying a woman could waltz into the Juventus starting line up. But a Serie B team? A Ligue 2 team? Hell, even a lower-end Scottish Premiership team? Maybe.

This thread is full of comparisons of all-female teams versus all-male teams in multiple sports, but these people fail to acknowledge that this is not the proposal.
Click to expand...

Who within our club does not have those traits relative to Megan Rapinoe (let's use her as she won the balon dor)? Genuine question.

But here's another question and let's use the Williams sisters tennis example. You are a women playing at the top within the woman's game. Why would you want to drop to the level you can compete with men? Because if your Serena Williams that means your skint and in the top 300 at best.
 
MurtyMania said:
But we're not talking about fielding whole teams of women here, we're talking about incorporating one or two into the side. There will be plenty of individual players with similar physical traits who quite easily play mens football.

It's all hypothetical until something actually happens. But I do see a way where it's possible.
Click to expand...

I think it's unlikely but who knows. One thing that (in my opinion) is clear is that women that do happen have a combination of physical and technical ability good enough to compete at a decent level on a field of men will absolutely be outliers.

What then happens to the other 99.9% of women? Their game becomes trivialized because anyone truly good and genetically-flukey enough moves over to men's football making the standard women's football look even poorer.

Women's football is pretty early on the path of a surge of popularity and I think it's a great thing. I honestly think trying to merge like mentioned does a lot more damage than good for women in football.

All that being said, that's just my opinion at this moment and I keep an open mind.
 
MurtyMania said:
But we're not talking about fielding whole teams of women here, we're talking about incorporating one or two into the side. There will be plenty of individual players with similar physical traits who quite easily play mens football.

It's all hypothetical until something actually happens. But I do see a way where it's possible.
Click to expand...

It's not possible. Be realistic.

Teams of 14 year old boys are skelping the world champs.
 
CF3 Bear said:
But that's where the men don't have to, it's natural. That's the point. Women could be "freaks of nature" for lack of a better term and compete on one of those traits, but not all.

Take me for example Vs an elite level female footballer. If I go to the gym and workout for 6 months, I will be in better all round physical condition than any female footballer that's ever lived. And I'm just an average guy.
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Luckily, we do have some measurables for women. Alex Morgan, for example, can run 100m in the low - mid 12s range (top speed), a five-and-a-half minute mile (stamina)

You reckon you could beat that?
 
CF3 Bear said:
Who within our club does not have those traits relative to Megan Rapinoe (let's use her as she won the balon dor)? Genuine question.

But here's another question and let's use the Williams sisters tennis example. You are a women playing at the top within the woman's game. Why would you want to drop to the level you can compete with men? Because if your Serena Williams that means your skint and in the top 300 at best.
Click to expand...
Using tennis example would they let a male play in the women's game say he was 1 of the sex change fookers and he was skelping them all and no1 would be uproar
 
Its-Sebo said:
I think it's unlikely but who knows. One thing that (in my opinion) is clear is that women that do happen have a combination of physical and technical ability good enough to compete at a decent level on a field of men will absolutely be outliers.

What then happens to the other 99.9% of women? Their game becomes trivialized because anyone truly good and genetically-flukey enough moves over to men's football making the standard women's football look even poorer.

Women's football is pretty early on the path of a surge of popularity and I think it's a great thing. I honestly think trying to merge like mentioned does a lot more damage than good for women in football.

All that being said, that's just my opinion at this moment and I keep an open mind.
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I don't disagree that it would be detrimental to the progress made in women's football, but ultimately it's for women themselves to decide.

Reading the quotes anyway, it sounds like the trial is more of an attempt to bridge the gap between playing underage football and adult football for both male and female players. The prospect of an Alex Morgan or Carli Lloyd signing for a mens team probably isn't what this trial is about
 
MurtyMania said:
The point was to show that at the top-end, women perform athletically at about 90% the capacity of men. Yes, elite athletes that specialise in a discipline sacrifice most (not all, elite sprinters do retain a degree of endurance) of their other athletic traits to maximise their performance.

Your point goes both ways - yes, they would not be able to focus on one individual trait, but neither would the men.
Click to expand...

Mate, you're saying 85 and 90% becuase that sounds close when you look at the maths. 90% sounds good. But in elite sports thats lightyears away. The difference between running sub 10 and running 10.6 or 10.7 is enormous.*

90%, think about what you are saying. Women are at the 90m mark when men are finishing the race. Men jump ~8.50+ currently. Women are struggling to break 7m consistently.

When it's men v men you are talking fractions of a second. Medals are won and lost by 0.1, 0.01 of a second. A whole second difference is massive.

Translate this across football, across all athletic qualities and it would just get worse. Not better. There is definintely also a skill gap between the sexes.

*Guys running those speeds wouldn't even bother. I knew a guy who ran around 10.3 or 10.4 and never really went anywhere with his career. A long jumper I worked with ran 10.3 and didnt even train for the 100. 10.3 isn't competitive for men. And the women are running 10.7+ at best.
 
MurtyMania said:
Luckily, we do have some measurables for women. Alex Morgan, for example, can run 100m in the low - mid 12s range (top speed), a five-and-a-half minute mile (stamina)

You reckon you could beat that?
Click to expand...

Male team sport athletes are running 100s in 11s.

Not that 100 is actually a measure of team sport performance anyway.

5, 10, 20m would be more appropriate

I worked with elite racket sports players who will run 10m in ~ 1.6 or 1.7s. The women are about 2s. Again you probably think thats close because the numbers are small. It's really not.
 
BigSteve said:
Mate, you're saying 85 and 90% becuase that sounds close when you look at the maths. 90% sounds good. But in elite sports thats lightyears away. The difference between running sub 10 and running 10.6 or 10.7 is enormous.*

90%, think about what you are saying. Women are at the 90m mark when men are finishing the race. Men jump ~8.50+ currently. Women are struggling to break 7m consistently.

When it's men v men you are talking fractions of a second. Medals are won and lost by 0.1, 0.01 of a second. A whole second difference is massive.

Translate this across football, across all athletic qualities and it would just get worse. Not better. There is definintely also a skill gap between the sexes.

*Guys running those speeds wouldn't even bother. I knew a guy who ran around 10.3 or 10.4 and never really went anywhere with his career. A long jumper I worked with ran 10.3 and didnt even train for the 100. 10.3 isn't competitive for men. And the women are running 10.7+ at best.
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This argument relies heavily on the assumption that every single male professional footballer would exceed every single female professional footballer in every single measurable physical aspect.

I would consider that to be, uh, somewhat unlikely.

Filip Helander isn't winning any 100m sprints. He manages to do alright at centre back though.

David Templeton probably wouldn't do so well at weightlifting. Was still able to have a good professional career though.

This is the point: athletes who are well rounded and good at everything are the exception, not the rule. That goes for both male and female players.
 
Allan70 said:
So what’s to stop a male from playing on a woman’s team? Of course they won’t allow it! That’s when you will see equality and double standards not matter one bit!
Click to expand...

I don't disagree but it becomes moot if there are no longer men's and women's teams.

Only teams.
 
If women were meant to play football they would have their tits somewhere else.Gregorys Girl was educational
 
Look at the tables here of athletic testing data between junior male and female tennis players. Measuring speed, "power", "endurance". Its not close. The same trends would be found across football if such data was available (football teams tend not to share such data)

www.researchgate.net

(PDF) Fitness testing of tennis players: How valuable is it?

PDF | In tennis, sport-specific technical skills are predominant factors, although a complex profile of physical performance factors is also required.... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate
www.researchgate.net www.researchgate.net

I get you are trying to be a modern guy of the world Murty. But it just wouldnt happen. There is too much data and real world evidence out there to show they couldnt compete.
 
Gender differences in match performance characteristics of soccer players competing in the UEFA Champions League

"Conclusions
The data demonstrate for the first time that large gender differences exist for match performance characteristics of elite players competing at the highest competitive standard of European soccer with males covering more distance at higher speed thresholds. Female players appear to fatigue more throughout the second half in comparison to male counterparts, and more ball losses and lower pass completion rates were observed in female versus males. "

www.researchgate.net

(PDF) Gender differences in match performance characteristics of soccer players competing in the UEFA Champions League

PDF | The aim of this study was to examine gender differences in match performance characteristics of elite soccer players. Fifty-four male and... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate
www.researchgate.net www.researchgate.net

Better link:

Note in the second half not only do they struggle physically, but technically they break down too: more ball losses and lower pass completion.
 
I’m sure some mad Italian chairman talked about this years ago, saying he was buying the Swedish women’s top striker and going to play her in the first team. Nothing ever came of it.
 
Men are physically stronger than women, fact. In other attributes of life, women are stronger than men.

It will just take the first crunching tackle to prove the folly of this experiment.
 
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