Helander over Katic

Barrymoped said:
It’s the strangest thing the love affair some have for him.

for the avoidance of doubt I like Katic but the last 2 games we have replaced him with a Swedish international and had 2 clean sheets, it’s not like we have been rubbish.
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Katic is the type of defender fans love. No nonsense. Goes into every tackle 100%.wins every header. And isnt scared to punt the ball away if needed. But Helander has come in and been really good, is better on the ball which definitely helps in the spl.
 
Hellander off to a good start in the blue jersey so reckon he's got it for the foreseeable. Solid, commanding and bringing out the best in BB too with the natural left footed balance.

I like Katic same as most on here and actually posted on here that maybe it was time for Goldson to step down for a spell prior to the Feyenoord game. However, he's looked good alongside Helander (the occasional dodgy pass aside) and it really irks me when folk refer to him as "dire" etc. He's a good defender full stop and is capable of coming up with some big moments for us, none more so than the last minute winner at Killie and the crucial second goal today.

Katic will have to bide his time again for now, hopefully he can show the same patience and maturity that he did last season. The rumours of training ground bust ups are a bit concerning though, as is the fact that he's sharing a flat with the waste of space Grezda if it's true what another poster mentioned. He needs to stay focused as we will need both him and gorgeous George before the seasons done.
 
Goldson's distribution is nothing short of abysmal at times - he easily gifted possession to St Johnstone about 6/7 times today, under no pressure.

I'm not expecting Beckenbauer type performances, but the amount of criticism he avoids is crazy. He definitely needs a few weeks out of the team.
 
prenzlauerbear said:
The idea that Gerrard is giving Katic some kind of raw deal is complete nonsense.
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He is though, I mean that’s two seasons in a row katic has played a major part of our europa league qualifying campaign and then been dropped out of the team the minute we play in the groups.
 
academical said:
I recall Gerrard being very clear when Katic arrived that he was a young, developing player, and not meant to be a fixture in the first team. He did better than expected early on.

Gerrard tried to rest him by bringing in Worrall last season, and that didn’t work out too well, but Helander is a class above. Now that he’s in the team, Katic is likely to be a squad player for a while. No reflection on Katic, whose time will come.

All IMVHO, of course.
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I get what you are saying mate but people can’t have it both ways on here. Either the “dinosaur tactics” of man management given out by Alex Ferguson etc are consigned to the dustbin if history or they are not. There are numerous occasions last year when the manager slated the team in front of the mentally challenged press when it would have been best left to the dressing room. Same with his OTT criticism of young Jones which should have remained private. It’s obvious SG has his favourites and Goldson it seems happens to end one, as there were several occasions he could have been benched (especially lasts six or so games last season) but he wasn’t.
 
Jjbscotty said:
He is though, I mean that’s two seasons in a row katic has played a major part of our europa league qualifying campaign and then been dropped out of the team the minute we play in the groups.
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He's not playing because there are better players available just now.

Worrall arrived with more experience and a better pedigree so it was natural he went into the team. I didn't agree with his continued inclusion but Katic had a lot of personal stuff going on, too.
 
prenzlauerbear said:
He's not playing because there are better players available just now.

Worrall arrived with more experience and a better pedigree so it was natural he went into the team. I didn't agree with his continued inclusion but Katic had a lot of personal stuff going on, too.
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How did worral have more experience of playing in Europe than katic? Katic played every qualifier last season and was rock solid.
 
A debate that's not going to go away! Edmundson's name hasn't even been mentioned. Great to have so many good options at the back, going to be hard to keep them all happy.

It does seem strange that Katic has been dropped from the last two squads though
 
Jjbscotty said:
How did worral have more experience of playing in Europe than katic? Katic played every qualifier last season and was rock solid.
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Worrall had played over 50 games for Notts Forest and was an England Under 21 international. He was further ahead in his development.

Worth remembering that Katic also had some horror shows as well. When he did come back into the team against Hamilton at New Douglas Park he put in a performance befitting of Russel Martin and was hooked.
 
SGbanwa said:
I think that he has given Barasic confidence to go forward that Katic never for some reason.
We have a strong left hand side just a pity Tav and goldson seem to be off the boils slightly for now.
We are winning that’s all that matters to me!
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What did either Goldson or Tav do wrong today?

If anything, Helander had the biggestmistake of the game when MOH almost scored.
 
Danger Zone said:
Everyone knew he was waiting for a couple of poor showings before getting Helander in. Predicted right from the start.

I can deal with it as long as we’re winning, but it’ll never fully sit right with me given the circumstances. Also if it wasn’t for Shagger Helander would be coming in for some heavy criticism today.
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Hardly a hot take predicting that after a couple of poorer showings a player might get replaced?

What about that doesn't sit well?
 
Theresa May said:
Goldson's distribution is nothing short of abysmal at times - he easily gifted possession to St Johnstone about 6/7 times today, under no pressure.

I'm not expecting Beckenbauer type performances, but the amount of criticism he avoids is crazy. He definitely needs a few weeks out of the team.
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Spot on
 
Danger Zone said:
Everyone knew he was waiting for a couple of poor showings before getting Helander in. Predicted right from the start.

I can deal with it as long as we’re winning, but it’ll never fully sit right with me given the circumstances. Also if it wasn’t for Shagger Helander would be coming in for some heavy criticism today.
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Agree. Showed a real lack of body strength today being out muscled by Stevie Friggin May.
 
PalefaceRedskin said:
Teams give the ball away mate. It was really poor by Connor but they were a still a long way from goal and Niko shouldn’t have stepped up. I’m not crucifying him for it as he’s one of my favourites but it was the fatal mistake and then followed in the game v Livi by his worst display since Hamilton last year.

I’ve told you why I don’t think he’ll play Helander and Niko together. They both step onto the ball.

Goldson is also the quickest of our centre halves so I think that’s another reason it is going to be him and one other.
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There's not a chance Goldson is our quickest defender.
 
academical said:
I recall Gerrard being very clear when Katic arrived that he was a young, developing player, and not meant to be a fixture in the first team. He did better than expected early on.

Gerrard tried to rest him by bringing in Worrall last season, and that didn’t work out too well, but Helander is a class above. Now that he’s in the team, Katic is likely to be a squad player for a while. No reflection on Katic, whose time will come.

All IMVHO, of course.
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Get what you’re saying mate but he didn’t rest him last season, he dropped him for a diddy loanee who was the same age.
 
Danger Zone said:
Everyone knew he was waiting for a couple of poor showings before getting Helander in. Predicted right from the start.

I can deal with it as long as we’re winning, but it’ll never fully sit right with me given the circumstances. Also if it wasn’t for Shagger Helander would be coming in for some heavy criticism today.
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Wasnt it tav that didnt track his man for the 1 on 1 with greegsy?
 
Grigo Yossarian said:
Agree. Showed a real lack of body strength today being out muscled by Stevie Friggin May.
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One thing I will say, imagine Katic had came back in today and he had made that mistake Helander made to allow O’Halloran in.

You just know the people that were shouting “we kept a clean sheet so shut up” after the Feyenoord game would have raced in here to say “ahh but look at that mistake Katic made today, that was awful and shagger saved us, Helander and Goldman from now on please”. Whether they admit it or not, there’s no chance they’d take the same “it was a clean sheet so nothing to worry about” approach they adopted after Feynoord.

Anyway, they’re all good defenders so it’s the type of problem I’m happy for us to have, but there’s not a doubt in my mind Katic has gotten a raw deal and plenty are kidding themselves on by speculating that Borna suddenly got better because of Helander, yet the same people won’t look at that Livingston game and say maybe Katic had a nightmare because he was playing alongside Halliday. As someone else said, they can’t have it both ways.
 
Horses for courses. Helander has been excellent since he’s come in. There will be games Katic is better suited for. Katic is my favourite player at the moment but I have nothing against Helander being given a chance! I was the biggest critic of Worral last season and so glad to see the back of him. The fact he was a loan player getting games ahead of our own boys was my biggest issue last season. But there are no similarities - he is being rotated with another very good player who belongs to us. Helander is no donkey like Worral was, he will be an absolute class act. I actually think Katic and Helander are our best two defenders BUT they are too similar and wouldn’t work together.
 
a_weir said:
What did either Goldson or Tav do wrong today?

If anything, Helander had the biggestmistake of the game when MOH almost scored.
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I just don’t think Tav and Goldson are firing on all cylinders I’m in now way slagging our players just thought the left was stronger today.
I hate these debates so last I’m saying in it.
 
Danger Zone said:
They’ve only played two games mate and shagger really pulled their chestnuts out of the fire today because that was amateur stuff when May got the ball on to O’Halloran. Ultimately they’ve worked well and I like both players, but it doesn’t mean Katic being the one to make way wasn’t unfair. Players should be selected on merit, when a player has ropey patches and is the only one in his position to never see time on the bench as a consequence, then players aren’t always being selected on merit, and it’ll lead to guys like Katic getting fed up and angling for a move away.

We’ve already seen it one with Worral, there’s not a doubt in my mind that had he never become a regular last season we’d have faired better overall last season. We’ve got a quality international now so it’s clearly not the same thing now, but it is evidence of favouritism none the less.
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What you’re basically saying though is that Gerrard is deliberately weakening the team by selecting a player (Goldson) he knows to be less effective than Katic.

I think we have to accept that Gerrard has his reasons for continuing to select Goldson.

We can all argue what they are, but I highly doubt he’s basing it on favouritism alone.
 
Goldson is the managers No1 CB and he will never drop him unless he becomes an out & out liability, Katic is a young lad with great potential but he was always going to be dropped to make for Helander at first opportunity
I'm delighted that we have 4 great CB's to choose from as big Edmondson is a class act as well
 
Danger Zone said:
One thing I will say, imagine Katic had came back in today and he had made that mistake Helander made to allow O’Halloran in.

You just know the people that were shouting “we kept a clean sheet so shut up” after the Feyenoord game would have raced in here to say “ahh but look at that mistake Katic made today, that was awful and shagger saved us, Helander and Goldman from now on please”. Whether they admit it or not, there’s no chance they’d take the same “it was a clean sheet so nothing to worry about” approach they adopted after Feynoord.

Anyway, they’re all good defenders so it’s the type of problem I’m happy for us to have, but there’s not a doubt in my mind Katic has gotten a raw deal and plenty are kidding themselves on by speculating that Borna suddenly got better because of Helander, yet the same people won’t look at that Livingston game and say maybe Katic had a nightmare because he was playing alongside Halliday. As someone else said, they can’t have it both ways.
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Absolutely fair comment in my opinion DZ.

We won the games & had shut outs, but I don’t feel that’s the simplistic way we should look at matches.

And I’m not against Helander coming into the team, albeit he looked physically weak today. He was excellent on Thursday.

My point is I’m not sure we have the correct balance with Goldson & Helander.

I differ from most I accept, but to me I wasn’t happy with Goldson on Thursday. I thought he was caught for pace a few times, I thought his distribution was generally disappointing & I thought that the two headers he got to were disappointing & well over the bar. Today his passing was again disappointing, albeit he took his goal well.

To me Goldson & Helander as a unit lack pace & lack physicality.

People can point to two matches & tell me I’m wrong. Fine. I’m prepared to watch a reasonable sample of games & discuss it further.

And I do accept Niko’s Rashness on occasions.
 
Thesuperger said:
Header apart I thought Helander was decent? Only his third game of the season so he will only get better :)
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I’m purely suggesting we don’t have the correct balance with Goldson//Helander SG.

None have great pace or great body strength.

I’m not going to bury the guy for a couple of mistakes mate.

I thought on Thursday night he read the game excellently & I also think his distribution is far better than Gokdson’s.
 
It's a tough game. To have quality players on the bench unhappy at not getting a game is a blessing. Tough shit. As long as we are winning I don't care who is upset at being on the bench.

And I love big Niko katic.
 
Barker96 said:
Yeah he made 1 error but that was just more of a lapse than anything. Didn't seem indicative of his overall play.

That's my point though. I feel our defence has improved in the last 2 games compared to how it was against Livi & Celtic so see absolutely no reason to mourn for Katic right now.

Barisic and Goldson's performances have improved especially. Could it be due to playing alongside a more experienced centre half than Katic? After the game on Thursday Goldson did mention how much Helander was talking to him throughout the game. He has impressed me.
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I like players talking on the pitch like that. Van Dijk is always quoted as bringing the best out of his partners, hopefully Helander can do the same for us.
 
petepoto said:
Massively.

I like him too but the panty wetting that goes on about him being dropped is embarrassing.

The over reaction to some bad moments for Goldson as well is the same. Katic is not exactly perfect himself.
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I don’t think it’s panty wetting Pete.

I think we all just care about getting the team to the optimum.

It’s OK having a shut out at Perth but it’s the European games, the scum & the sheep that will probably define our season in terms of success.

Right now I wouldn’t rule out Edmondson from our best eleven never mind Katic. I personally want A COMBINATION that brings power, pace, passing, goals for us and defensive savvy.
 
I like Katic, but honestly, listening to the obsession that some have on here about him you would think he is some kind of cross between Gough, Greig and Butcher.

Helander is a better player, Katic may surpass him, but not yet. He also seems to have added a better balance and this has helped Barisic.

Goldson and Helander will be an excellent partnership, and Katic will learn a lot from them both.
 
Danger Zone said:
Everyone knew he was waiting for a couple of poor showings before getting Helander in. Predicted right from the start.

I can deal with it as long as we’re winning, but it’ll never fully sit right with me given the circumstances. Also if it wasn’t for Shagger Helander would be coming in for some heavy criticism today.
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Well to be fair SG did not wait for a couple of poor performance before binning Katic. In his 2nd last game against Legia young Katic was immense, winning praise from everyone, most especially SG himself.

Both Katic and Goldson were out of sorts against Celtic but it was Goldson's intercepted pass that led to us conceding the first goal.

It surely is not to difficult to understand why sections of the support believe that Katic has been unfairly dropped, especially considering his excellent start to the season where, almost to a man, the support were in agreement that he was our best performing defender. Add in the fact that last season he suffered the exact same treatment, surprisingly dropped without any justification after a stellar start to his Rangers career.

SG has kept quiet on the reasons for Katic's disappearance from the last 2 matchday squads and until he does speculation is only going to grow that Katic has taken his demotion badly.

As I said in an earlier thread today all that really matters to me is Rangers winning. SG has the right to pick who he wishes but in certain situations I believe he has to explain his reasoning and I believe this is one, even if only to say Helander and Goldson is his preferred starting centre backs with Katic and Edmundson as back ups.
 
I’m sad Katic didn’t even make the squad but I’m excited that we have 3 very good CB’s who will stand us in good stead for the busy season ahead. I get the criticism of Goldson as he hasn’t been at his best this season by and large but he was good today, was very good last season and held his own in the EPL with Brighton too.

With Barisic hitting top form too there are bright times ahead bears! ⚪️
 
I was at both games Helander played and the pace everyone is going on about - I don’t see it? It’s early days BUT an opinion is an opinion but I feel Katic has be mistreated, what will this do to the boys confidence ? Out the picture for the last two games was wrong. I just seen Helander getting beat in duals with May and also wasn’t to clever on his feet in the second half. All I want at the end of the day is a winning team and we won also with a clean sheet so ....... maybe I’m talking mince haha
 
The treatment of Katic aside. I don't think it sends out a good message in general that certain players can have an off game and they'll be dropped from the squad, yet others can have several poor games and still keep their place.

Obviously with a big squad players have to play well and keep on their toes, but having that added pressure knowing that one mistake could see you binned can't be good at all.
 
For what little I've seen of him big Edmundson looked a player think hes our best CB for talking the ball into and passed midfield and he has a good accurate long ball hoping he van get more game time to truly see his abilities
 
Katic is very good but he does have his flaws. He's a fan favourite because he has a crowd pleasing style and likes flying into tackles/aerial challenges but there's a lot more to defending than that stuff.
 
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