I’ve Stopped My Club 1872 Contributions In Light Of The Proposed King Shares Puchase

Hillheadbear said:
I will repeat what I have said in other posts.

I am very supportive of the fans acquiring Dave King's share holding as a strategy to 'future proof' the ownership of the club and try to prevent it being acquired by future spivs.

My concern is with the structure of C1872 and how they handle this opportunity as I have set out in previous posts.
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You are the very man!

I have asked this a couple of times now and nobody has any real answer;

Is future proofing against King (specifically in this instance) inadvertently selling to a future spiv not as simple as working out how much of the club is owned by non savoury types/unknowns, working out how much of King's shares would need to be sold to them to give them enough of a stake to do damage, and C1872 buying the difference?

In principal, if we know who owns every share and know they are 'good' King could sell as little as a couple of % to C1872 in order to split is holding enough to render it worthless as a vehicle for taking control?

Also, at 25%, is his holding not too small to be a real short term threat regardless of who takes it up anyway? They would be able to block special resolutions, but unless they were wiling to watch their initial purchase dwindle in value, blocking maliciously would make little sense longer term.



I guess what I am driving at is would it not be possible for the support to take an affordable chunk of King's shares direct, in a great enough number to offer short term protection, and thus allow C1872 to organically grow it's holdings in line with income? This would allow it to be in a position to do the same again the next time a director wants to sell and more importantly, it would leave a good but of supporter wealth available to take part in future share issues to buy direct from the club in order to maintain and expand the C1872 holdings?






it is always, absolutely always, wise to ask questions of people who know better!
 
sherbrook_loyal said:
After much deliberation, I’ve decided to no longer contribute to Club 1872.

I don’t think that it’s too much of a stretch to say that recent announcements are a bit of a kick in the teeth to our current wealthy investors, who are all loyal supporters like you and I.

If I’d invested the sums of money these shareholders had, I’d be concerned that a fans’ group could soon have a majority say in the club I’ve heavily invested in.

For me, the not inconsiderable sum of £13 million would do a lot more good going to the club than any individual.
And I say that as a big Dave King fan.

That the Club 1872 fans’ group seems to be extremely poorly run would only add to my concerns.

As someone who has contributed each month to Club 1872 for a long time, the King news just doesn’t sit right with me.

Club 1872 members were polled recently to ascertain interest in a much smaller shares purchase, yet there is no such similar poll for a potentially much larger purchase.
How can this be?

Our club desperately needs money – and, as a Club 1872 member, I’d far rather our money went towards new shares, so the £13 million that has been suggested goes to the club.

And I’m quite sure the current board would be very receptive to such a move.

King has every right to sell his shares – and I’ll be eternally grateful for all his efforts – but I think this is a terrible move.

I trust King enough to be able to sell his shares to other investors who would have RFC’s best interests at heart.

Apologies if this seems overly dramatic, but I can no longer support Club 1872 on this new path they’ve chosen without even consulting members.

Any money I’ll be spending from now on will exclusively be going direct to the club.

I appreciate some may think this is a ‘look at me’ post – it’s not... and I also appreciate that some may question the need for a new thread – but I think that people deciding to walk away from Club 1872 in light of recent events is reason enough for a thread in its own right.

Anyone else feel similar?
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No. Dave King has spent over £40m over the years and is the main reason we are where we are today.

It’s not unreasonable for him to get some of that investment back.

When will we get this opportunity again? He may well have sold to someone else with our best interests at heart but what if that investor didn’t fancy it a few years down the line?

I really struggle to understand how this is a bad thing.
 
Northampton_Loyalist said:
You are the very man!

I have asked this a couple of times now and nobody has any real answer;

Is future proofing against King (specifically in this instance) inadvertently selling to a future spiv not as simple as working out how much of the club is owned by non savoury types/unknowns, working out how much of King's shares would need to be sold to them to give them enough of a stake to do damage, and C1872 buying the difference?

In principal, if we know who owns every share and know they are 'good' King could sell as little as a couple of % to C1872 in order to split is holding enough to render it worthless as a vehicle for taking control?

Also, at 25%, is his holding not too small to be a real short term threat regardless of who takes it up anyway? They would be able to block special resolutions, but unless they were wiling to watch their initial purchase dwindle in value, blocking maliciously would make little sense longer term.



I guess what I am driving at is would it not be possible for the support to take an affordable chunk of King's shares direct, in a great enough number to offer short term protection, and thus allow C1872 to organically grow it's holdings in line with income? This would allow it to be in a position to do the same again the next time a director wants to sell and more importantly, it would leave a good but of supporter wealth available to take part in future share issues to buy direct from the club in order to maintain and expand the C1872 holdings?






it is always, absolutely always, wise to ask questions of people who know better!
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You really need to know UK Company Law which I don't. However, it is my understanding that by holding 25%, a shareholder or shareholders can restrict certain actions by the company by preventing special resolutions being passed.

More here:

corpgov.law.harvard.edu

UK Shareholder Activism: A Toolbox for 2014

Following an increase in shareholder and investor activism beyond pure executive remuneration issues in the United Kingdom (UK) in 2013, with some 25 ...
corpgov.law.harvard.edu corpgov.law.harvard.edu
 
Danger Zone said:
Yeah mate the violence, the poor results and the general unrest at the piggery will all be forgotten about now that the media are chomping at the bit to write about a solitary poster from FF making the decision to stop contributing to Club 1872. I expect the news will have spread right around Europe by midday tomorrow with Charles Patterson and countless other reporters stood outside Ibrox desperate to know how and why Sherbrook_loyal came to this decision.
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I'm glad you agree
 
Hillheadbear said:
You really need to know UK Company Law which I don't. However, it is my understanding that bt holding 25%, a shareholder or shareholders can restrict certain actions by the company by preventing special resolutions being passed.

More here:

corpgov.law.harvard.edu

UK Shareholder Activism: A Toolbox for 2014

Following an increase in shareholder and investor activism beyond pure executive remuneration issues in the United Kingdom (UK) in 2013, with some 25 ...
corpgov.law.harvard.edu corpgov.law.harvard.edu
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Yes, I get that mate. The concern is that if King sells his shares on the open market it opens the door for a spiv. Logic would tell me that if you reduce his holdings by 10% or so, the remainder is no longer a threat if sold on the open market.


If that is right, it would mean that for half the money needed currently, perhaps less, the same aim could be achieved; the aim of protecting against King's shares being used for harm.
 
It might be that King is doing a bit of shrewd marketing for his shares, it’s been all over the MSM the last few days that he’s selling shares at a slightly discounted price. He maybe wants to see if anyone will come forward to by his shares instead of c1872. It’s as if he’s saying “any takers” and if not then he will hand over to c1872 as they are the most trustworthy to give shares to. Wether they are fit to hold a major share holding remains to be seen. I don’t begrudge King taking some money back after what he’s done, seems some people do. We’ll need to see what happens going forward, we’ve got a euro game tonight.
 
Northampton_Loyalist said:
Yes, I get that mate. The concern is that if King sells his shares on the open market it opens the door for a spiv. Logic would tell me that if you reduce his holdings by 10% or so, the remainder is no longer a threat if sold on the open market.


If that is right, it would mean that for half the money needed currently, perhaps less, the same aim could be achieved; the aim of protecting against King's shares being used for harm.
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The problem is that Dave King isn't the only one holding shares. You also want to guard against the impact of future sales by other major shareholders.
 
I've posted on 3 or 4 occasions over the last few years voicing similar concerns to everyone else about the structure of Club1872 and the approach to fan ownership.

Following this announcement I've been trying to think of what good might look like.

The Green was doing the rounds I met with him and some of his people when they were out making presentations to raise cash. It was TBH a very good presentation and a sound business plan.

Good enough for a few of us to sit down with fund managers to talk about setting up a fund populated by parties interested in buying shares in Rangers.

In that model the fund is a vehicle for aggregating share purchases to increase scale where perhaps a couple of dozen people would buy 4/5% of the shares or over between them.

So say I put £10k in and that bought the fund 10,000 shares. I would actually own those shares with my investment aggregated with others and managed by the fund managers to achieve or support achievement of the goals outlined in the prospectus offering buy in.

As it happens the prospectus was more about making a return by selling the shares at a profit than supporting the club so I lost interest.

My point though is that I would own the shares and be able to sell them, or buy more, as and when there was a market for selling or buying.

There are lots of points been made about this deal, but the biggest block is as a support this would simply be a gift to Club1872 to buy shares for Club1872.

Just say that in 5 years someone came along and offered 10x value and it was accepted by the whole board, and club1872 approved as well, who gets the cash? How is it divided up?

Finally to the same point, Mr King and others have invested in and saved Rangers, but they are able to potentially get the money out again if they need to. Thats not the case with this model.
 
I don’t get the hysteria here.

Group set up to buy enough shares to stop 2012 ever happening again, get the chance to. Queue folk pissinq their pants about it.

personally I’m thinking of signing up. I couldn’t care less where the shares come from, although king saved our club and is only doing what he said he would. I only want the club to be secure from rats and spivs.
 
Hillheadbear said:
The problem is that Dave King isn't the only one holding shares. You also want to guard against the impact of future sales by other major shareholders.
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Absolutely. It is a short term solution. The issue is C1872 is facing an uphill battle to convince 20000 people to part with £13 million and a halfway house solution might end up being the only viable option. When you add in the fact that people are uneasy with the idea of buying from King over investing directly, minimizing the exposure to existing shares might allow C1872 to safeguard against spivery in the short term, increase holdings, have cash left in the supporter base for future direct investments and remove a good deal of the resistance at a stroke.
 
Easily sorted......

AGM question:

Mr Park, how do you and your board view the potential for c1872 to purchase Mr King’s shares over the next 3 yrs (rumoured to be of an amount of £13m)?

Do you support the prospect of a fans group such as c1872 having a 25%+ share in the club and do you welcome their potential acquisition of Mr King’s shares?
 
Rangers500 said:
I’ve maintained all along that fan ownership (being the largest shareholder) or fans on the board sounds a terrible idea and the cause of many future problems. We aren’t some two bit mob and the standard of representation of club 1872 is not what I would want having a leading say in the future of our club. That’s ignoring the predictable falling out that will inevitably take place periodically.

Big fat no for me and if DK is to step away I would hope another bear/bears who have succeeded in business and have deep pockets would assume his position.
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Agree with this. Poor timing, little detail and an idea I’ve never believed would work for us.
 
On paper - fans owning a fair % of the club & having a vote at boardroom level is - imo at least - a positive & desirable move

Compare & contrast Murray's departure where he sold the crown jewls for a quid to the 1st charlatan that crawled out from under a rock & DK's attempt to give his share back to those that matter most to the club

Anyone slagging DK about this isn't on the right wavelength imo

However- we've probably all got some reservations about how fit for purpose C1872 are to deal with this privilege being thrust upon them

C1872 are an organisation in it's infancy
I'd argue it's never quite got it's act together so far- which is not too surprising given the magnitude of becoming both a corporate & legally compliant institution as well as keeping fans happy -

Whatever infighting that's gone on with C1872 up till now should not imo be a good enough reason to discount what is an incredible chance to take us fans & the club forward

C1872 needs to wake up & drastically change into the organisation our fans & club deserves.

Missing out on a chance like this would break my heart
 
Jimmy Jazz said:
Above anything else, I have little reason to believe Club 1872 in its current form would be competent at board level.
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'They' wouldn't be on the board, they would propose someone to represent C1872. that person would have to be acceptable to rangers as a person capable of being on the board.
 
the people at the top of club 1872 should be guys known to and respected by the rangers support.
guys who have ran buses for years for example, well established clubs like nithsdale loyal, bishopbriggs etc.
i know there will be other guys who dont run buses who equally should be considered but im sure you will get my drift.
 
RFC_Champions said:
Easily sorted......

AGM question:

Mr Park, how do you and your board view the potential for c1872 to purchase Mr King’s shares over the next 3 yrs (rumoured to be of an amount of £13m)?

Do you support the prospect of a fans group such as c1872 having a 25%+ share in the club and do you welcome their potential acquisition of Mr King’s shares?
Click to expand...

I thought it had already been confirmed that the board are happy with this ?
 
gersandproud said:
I thought it had already been confirmed that the board are happy with this ?
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I think it has (via Dave King) but hopefully hearing it from the horses mouth will pour cold water on all the hysteria that there’s been a fall-out or this is bad news for the club/current board members and investors.

Keep the panty wetters at ease if you like.

Edit: maybe I’m asking too much with the latter part :))
 
Last edited:
Dear Member,

We are delighted to bring you the news that on day one of our Legacy Campaign, we welcomed over 1000 legacy members who each committed to helping to fund our purchase of Dave King's entire shareholding in RIFC. This is an incredible response from the Rangers support and we extend our thanks to our new members and to those existing members who've switched to legacy donations in the past 24 hours.
 
sherbrook_loyal said:
1) How do you know what the current investors think?

2) I deliberated over the content of my OP considerably – and I've said exactly what I meant to.
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1) The C1872 & DK state in the statement that ‘It has also been agreed with the RIFC Board that both Club 1872 and Dave King will have the right to participate in any impending share issue of RIFC.’ - that sounds to me like it has already been discussed with the current board. So, that’s how I’ve gauged how the current investors/board think - so, I’ll put your question back to you - How do you know what the current investors think?

2) Your contribution in the other thread regards C1872, Rangers & CG suggests you know the full story going on there. Is that clouding your judgement? If so, please make that clear and if you can furnish the rest of the Rangers fan base with what you can regards this matter
 
ibroxbound said:
I don't think you can accuse fans of having short memories when most of us paid up front for season tickets in the knowledge that we probably won't be at Ibrox this season.
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That’s a different thing tbf. I think we’re all forgetting how desperate it was and what we’d have done at the time.
 
strider said:
I've never been a Club1872 contributer, so take this as you will with that in mind - I think they've approached this the wrong way around.

It's all a bit like the SNP independence argument.

"Being owned by fans is better because it works at other clubs, so we should be owned by fans. Don't worry about the dysfunction of the fans group, being fan owned is the most important thing"

I think they have to prove that this is the best way to go before asking people to buy in. Maybe they have time for that, but it's a huge ask in three years, I reckon.
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Do you know if Club 1872 are meant to be speaking to H&H or any other Rangers fan media group at all?
 
Teddyjohn said:
I’m sure the question will be put to them at the AGM.
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The current board and investors can clear this all up in one sweep at the AGM.

Give their full support to this and every rangers fan under the sun should be behind c1872s aspiration (assuming c1872 get their own house in order - which they will given the scale that they are trying to achieve). Regardless where your previous allegiances sit - RST, RF, RSA etc

If the board don’t support this - then it’s dead in the water before it’s even started.
 
RFC_Champions said:
The current board and investors can clear this all up in one sweep at the AGM.

Give their full support to this and every Rangers fan under the sun should be behind c1872s aspiration (assuming c1872 get their own house in order - which they will given the scale that they are trying to achieve). Regardless where your previous allegiances sit - RST, RF, RSA etc

If the board don’t support this - then it’s dead in the water before it’s even started.
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Exactly this.

I'll value our board's view on this over random ill informed FF posters.
 
RFC_Champions said:
The current board and investors can clear this all up in one sweep at the AGM.

Give their full support to this and every Rangers fan under the sun should be behind c1872s aspiration (assuming c1872 get their own house in order - which they will given the scale that they are trying to achieve). Regardless where your previous allegiances sit - RST, RF, RSA etc

If the board don’t support this - then it’s dead in the water before it’s even started.
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Excellent post.
 
Apologies if already covered but why did C1872 refuse to take part in a share issue when invited to by the club, with monies going directly to the club - but yet jump at the chance to buy Kings shares where the club doesn't see a penny?

Strange.
 
Arkyblue said:
Agree with the OP 100% . Club 1872 funds were designed to help the Club not DK
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I don't agree with your latter statement. It seems pretty clear to me that Club 1872 funds are designed to increase their (and therefore supporters) shareholding in Rangers. That's the primary aim of the organisation and always has been. So if King has offered to sell his shares to them it's entirely understandable that they would want to find a way to take advantage of that.
 
Am I missing something?

If king is selling his shares then whether it's to club 1872 or big Jim from Govan the money will be going to him not the club.

1872 aim has always been to get a large share in the club.
 
Teddyjohn said:
Do you know if Club 1872 are meant to be speaking to H&H or any other Rangers fan media group at all?
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No idea about H&H, but Stevie has an upcoming podcast on 4lads with Davis King and someone from C1872 (apologies, I think her name is Laura but can't be certain!).
 
strider said:
No idea about H&H, but Stevie has an upcoming podcast on 4lads with Davis King and someone from C1872 (apologies, I think her name is Laura but can't be certain!).
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Do you know if that’s been recorded already? If not I was wondering if there was a way to submit questions.
 
Wilkinsvolley said:
That’s a different thing tbf. I think we’re all forgetting how desperate it was and what we’d have done at the time.
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I don't think anybody is forgetting what happened but could be wary of this option as Club1872 haven't exactly been proactive with information in the past and the first email you get for a while is asking for money.
 
The other issue we have here is that the current directors loan money to the club. When these loans are due, they are converted into shares. No one out with those that lend the money is able to get their hands on any new shares.
 
interbear said:
I don't agree with your latter statement. It seems pretty clear to me that Club 1872 funds are designed to increase their (and therefore supporters) shareholding in Rangers. That's the primary aim of the organisation and always has been. So if King has offered to sell his shares to them it's entirely understandable that they would want to find a way to take advantage of that.
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Yep, one of their objectives is to put money into the club, the other is to increase their shareholding. They are not mutually inclusive.

And the money has already gone to Rangers. Dave King wants some of it back. He can either sell on the open market or to a wealthy individual, or in this case to C1872.
 
Like many others on here I went through the RST, Rangers First and eventually Club1872 membership. A lifetime member of them all and contributing to Club1872 monthly until a couple of months ago. I stopped as communication had dried up, the momentum appeared to be dissipating and the resignations of board members recently with little explanation or transparency for members really concerned me in terms of governance and direction. So I pressed the pause button on my contributions. I wanted to see where Club1872 was headed before resuming.

With this legacy initiative to purchase King's shares, things now seem to be heading in a clearer direction. I am a little torn on whether or not I should jump in and commit though. I respect everything King has done for the club and the fact that he wants to exit but provide an opportunity for Club1872 to purchase his shares and increases their holding to 25%+. This is very positive compared to him or his family selling the shares to unknown entities for the highest price. I also think that Club1872 are doing the right thing in seeking to take advantage of this, it's entirely consistent with it's primary objective of increasing supporter ownership of the club. But I still have some reservations. Is it realistic, what happens if they don't raise the full amount, how will they improve their own governance when raising such a sum of money? And will their communication improve as it needs to? Personally I'd prefer to be able to purchase shares myself, in my name, but proxy voting rights to Club1872 for collective influence. That would make a lot of sense to me and I'd definitely commit. My concerns on the organisation itself are what's holding me back, I may well eventually do it as I support the principle of supporter ownership but I need to read and hear more about it first. I need some persuasion before jumping in.

I'd also agree with everyone on here stating that the timing couldn't possibly be worse given the pandemic, economic situation and the fact we have already payed out for a full season in which we are unlikely to even see any of our team's matches in person. It's asking a lot to commit more cash now.
 
Henry Hill said:
Of course any pound spent we’d rather go directly the club, but hasn’t this £13m already done exactly that we are noW looking to ‘pay Dave King back’

In return we have a club in a healthy position (we may not have had a club at all) and we have a very large % of fan ownership
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Thats my take on it, all this talk about how the “£13m should be invested in the club”, it already has been invested ( and more by Dave King) and his legacy for it now is fan ownership with C1872.
It seems now that internal politics is in play to put fans off, which is disappointing.
 
ibroxbound said:
I don't think anybody is forgetting what happened but could be wary of this option as Club1872 haven't exactly been proactive with information in the past and the first email you get for a while is asking for money.
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That’s the problem for me. I think buying shares to get to the required level is the right thing to do. The main problem is how c1872 has been run. Infighting seems to have been rife and transparency non existent. That’s what needs addressed before they can convince people of anything else.
 
gersandproud said:
I thought it had already been confirmed that the board are happy with this ?
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From this post on the other thread it doesn’t appear that the board were even aware that DK was proposing to sell his shares to C1872.

From DK Q&A -

Q: Have you had feedback from Douglas Park and rest of board or are you comfortable they’ll be supportive in the way you want?

DK: I’m fairly comfortable. It’s not something I’ve discussed. Since I’ve left the board I’ve had virtually no contact with the board whatsoever. I think quite rightly.
 
colin stein 9 said:
From this post on the other thread it doesn’t appear that the board were even aware that DK was proposing to sell his shares to C1872.

From DK Q&A -

Q: Have you had feedback from Douglas Park and rest of board or are you comfortable they’ll be supportive in the way you want?

DK: I’m fairly comfortable. It’s not something I’ve discussed. Since I’ve left the board I’ve had virtually no contact with the board whatsoever. I think quite rightly.
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Our AGM will be interesting.
 
bullen an la said:
the people at the top of club 1872 should be guys known to and respected by the Rangers support.
guys who have ran buses for years for example, well established clubs like nithsdale loyal, bishopbriggs etc.
i know there will be other guys who dont run buses who equally should be considered but im sure you will get my drift.
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I totally agree - those you mention can contribute most & to the best effect for most things affecting our club's running - after all they're on the shop floor so to speak

But what I've got the most trouble with is the corporate bods within C1872 who have to ensure the legality of the organisation & the accountants / financial controllers who deal with the revenue & need to be ultra-efficient & squeaky clean



colin stein 9 said:
From this post on the other thread it doesn’t appear that the board were even aware that DK was proposing to sell his shares to C1872.

From DK Q&A -

Q: Have you had feedback from Douglas Park and rest of board or are you comfortable they’ll be supportive in the way you want?

DK: I’m fairly comfortable. It’s not something I’ve discussed. Since I’ve left the board I’ve had virtually no contact with the board whatsoever. I think quite rightly.
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RFC_Champions said:
I think it has (via Dave King) but hopefully hearing it from the horses mouth will pour cold water on all the hysteria that there’s been a fall-out or this is bad news for the club/current board members and investors.

Keep the panty wetters at ease if you like.

Edit: maybe I’m asking too much with the latter part :))
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sherbrook_loyal said:
Has it?
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I asked my question because I thought that was what DK said in his statement

Reading multiple posts since - I now realise this wasn't exactly 100% correct &/ or fully verified -

So I'm now as eager as anyone else to see the matter truthfully resolved
 
sherbrook_loyal said:
Our AGM will be interesting.
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It really is as simple as that. A short Q&A at the AGM.

Fortunately the AGM is right around the corner and the current board can clear up any confusion and send a message to what their aspiration are for any investment from c1872, without the need for this cloud to linger around the club and fan base. Let’s face it - it’s doing nothing to help the team.

Hopefully the AGM session will pass without cryptic messages like we love to post but hate to read on a fans forum :))
 
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