I’ve Stopped My Club 1872 Contributions In Light Of The Proposed King Shares Puchase

[iaatpies]

I have a very modest personal share holding purchased during the Green era. What's the benefit of C1872 memebership for me rather than retaining my personal shares? Genuine question and not having a pop - I simply don't know what C1872 do. Anyone enlighten ?

The benefit of fan ownership/representation?

Your shareholding doesnt give you much of a voice. Pooling resources together gives the support a stronger voice. You might control 0.something % of the voting rights as an individual. You as an individual really don't have any meaningful say. If the support controls 25% of the voting rights then it has a voice.

Whether or not C1872 does that now is debatable. It's not set up the way I'd want it to be. I think that the big failure of C1872, and Rangers fan groups in general, has been that they don't have clear an unambiguous structures or processes. It's a by product of people with good intentions missing out the practical details.

 

[Mosschops]

Sounds great, but we have virtually never done that.
All the players valuations that we think of on FF are what we think off.
Looking ahead our management team likely wont be there in 5 years.

Mate this isn't Football manager. It's incredibly unlikely Gerrard will be here after this season (if he wins nothing) or next season (if he wins everything and decides to move on)

Our business model HAS to be find someone like Alfie or Borna EVERY season and sell them for a massive profit OR make Champions League group stages every year.

We can't just have rich people chucking in money every season for ever. The business model we are running atm is incredibly risky and involves front loading huge investment to make up ground on the mentally challengeds and get into Europe from a standing start.

Once we start to make headway into Europe and because of that have assets in our squad (Alfie, Borna, Kamara, Tav, Kent) we need to sell them for a large profit and re-invest in the next lot to come in.

 

[Gramps1]

So we need to adapt and change and have a sustainable business model.

Constantly running at a loss is (obviously) unsustainable.

We should already be planning for SG et al leaving, and given Ross Wilson's history of succession planning at Southampton I'm relatively confident he will have a plan in place.

See if any of that shite gets fired at Stevie G at the agm al weep.
We should be riding a wave the now not talking about sustainable business models.
The more that gets said the more incredible this timing is.

 

[Obanloyal]

I was planning to invest but after reading the comments I’ll hang off for the moment. Don’t really understand it all.

 

[supersonic]

I don't know how people can say that Club 1872 having 25% of the shares safeguards the club.

If the C1872 board are able to agree to purchase £13m worth of shares without consulting members then what else do they have the power to do?

Considering the club needs 22m in fresh investment, in 3 years time they wont even have the current 25%. Shares will be diluted further in the next 3 years. Which makes the case for c1872 buying into Rangera directly even stronger.

 

[AC_55]

The club is being run really well at the moment, I doubt current board members / major shareholders will be too pleased about this. This is friction we do not need at this particular time.

Personally I am going to try and put this to the back of my mind and focus on the team. A positive result tonight and a torrid time for the mentally challengeds should help refocus minds on the task at hand. The support needs to be with the team just now.

 

[daveyn85]

I have a very modest personal share holding purchased during the Green era. What's the benefit of C1872 memebership for me rather than retaining my personal shares? Genuine question and not having a pop - I simply don't know what C1872 do. Anyone enlighten ?

Think I am in the same boat with this. I bought 1,000 shares in the IPO and then have been a regular contributor to C1872 (only £5/month). I was really happy with this contribution when C1872 purchased new shares to put into the club a i felt even though i didnt own these shares from my money they are being invested in the club. It wasnt an investment choice for me but for money into the club like a ST or Rangers TV. However, this legacy request is now more of a personal choice for me.

If they had asked me for £500 to put into the club rather than Dave King i might say yes but I still think asking for this amount is their downfall. It makes some people think, like myself, I could rather give it to the club directly, have my own shares (like from the IPO) and still ensure shares are in the hands of a Rangers supporter (i.e me!). All dependent on a future share issue but this hasnt been communicated very well at all.

Quite conflicted though as i will always be grateful to DK for what he did but the club still needs investment at this stage to pull away from C****c. Then maybe would be the time to buy out DK when they are back to playing in front 20k and a banner. Not now

 

[thevietnambear]

After much deliberation, I’ve decided to no longer contribute to Club 1872.

I don’t think that it’s too much of a stretch to say that recent announcements are a bit of a kick in the teeth to our current wealthy investors, who are all loyal supporters like you and I.

If I’d invested the sums of money these shareholders had, I’d be concerned that a fans’ group could soon have a majority say in the club I’ve heavily invested in.

For me, the not inconsiderable sum of £13 million would do a lot more good going to the club than any individual.
And I say that as a big Dave King fan.

That the Club 1872 fans’ group seems to be extremely poorly run would only add to my concerns.

As someone who has contributed each month to Club 1872 for a long time, the King news just doesn’t sit right with me.

Club 1872 members were polled recently to ascertain interest in a much smaller shares purchase, yet there is no such similar poll for a potentially much larger purchase.
How can this be?

Our club desperately needs money – and, as a Club 1872 member, I’d far rather our money went towards new shares, so the £13 million that has been suggested goes to the club.

And I’m quite sure the current board would be very receptive to such a move.

King has every right to sell his shares – and I’ll be eternally grateful for all his efforts – but I think this is a terrible move.

I trust King enough to be able to sell his shares to other investors who would have RFC’s best interests at heart.

Apologies if this seems overly dramatic, but I can no longer support Club 1872 on this new path they’ve chosen without even consulting members.

Any money I’ll be spending from now on will exclusively be going direct to the club.

I appreciate some may think this is a ‘look at me’ post – it’s not... and I also appreciate that some may question the need for a new thread – but I think that people deciding to walk away from Club 1872 in light of recent events is reason enough for a thread in its own right.

Anyone else feel similar?

#NeverAgain, this is the idea behind Dave King's proposal, if Club1872 get 25% + 1 then NO MORE Craig Whytes.

I see your reason and it makes sense but so does King's gesture to Club1872

 

[supersonic]

#NeverAgain, this is the idea behind Dave King's proposal, if Club1872 get 25% + 1 then NO MORE Craig Whytes.

I see your reason and it makes sense but so does King's gesture to Club1872

No more Craig whytes, so let's give Rangers the same £13m for the same number of shares.

 

[thevietnambear]

I'll keep my contributions as is for now. I definitely won't be subscribing to any new funding level for the reasons described above. I'm keeping my money for a share issue where I can put money directly into the club and own a wee piece for myself. Hope it happens soon though.

You have done the correct action

 

[dentalbear]

See if any of that shite gets fired at Stevie G at the agm al weep.
We should be riding a wave the now not talking about sustainable business models.
The more that gets said the more incredible this timing is.

Why is wanting our club run properly "shite" and why shouldn't we talk about it in the good times?

Waiting for things to go wrong then discussing it is hardly the right approach.

I agree that anyone asking the manager about it at the AGM would be crazy - that's not his job at all.

I also agree that the timing is strange, but maybe we'll find out why now when DK and C1872 speak with 4LHAD etc.

 

[thevietnambear]

No more Craig whytes, so let's give Rangers the same £13m for the same number of shares.

Your wrong

 

[BlueWhiteDynamite]

Fan ownership of a significant tranche of shares has been a long term goal surely? Do we forever want to be beholden to "Rangers minded" investors? It only takes a couple of bad eggs to see us back in a Murray or Green scenario. I agree that Club 1872 need more engagement with fanbase through fan media but we should be getting behind this. Hearts fans have raised 10m - we should easily be able to raise 13m to ensure we have a day in future direction of club? Its a bargain. Once we have that amount of investors (20k) the regular £10/mth ongoing donation would amount to £200k per month. Fans could then be investing £2m+ of new money every year in future share issues or one off investment projects. Eg Ibrox upgrades. Its an amazing opportunity and I think a lot of people are being contrarian for the sake of it. The other investors wouldn't want 13m of new shares floated to further dilute their investment. Its also a bad advert for future investors to say - come invest but we'll constantly seek to dilute your investment in future.

 

[iaatpies]

The club is being run really well at the moment, I doubt current board members / major shareholders will be too pleased about this. This is friction we do not need at this particular time.

Personally I am going to try and put this to the back of my mind and focus on the team. A positive result tonight and a torrid time for the mentally challengeds should help refocus minds on the task at hand. The support needs to be with the team just now.

A business of the size of Rangers with 8-figure losses and that relies on director loans and debt for equity deals isnt being run really well.

 

[Gramps1]

Why is wanting our club run properly "shite" and why shouldn't we talk about it in the good times?

Waiting for things to go wrong then discussing it is hardly the right approach.

I agree that anyone asking the manager about it at the AGM would be crazy - that's not his job at all.

I also agree that the timing is strange, but maybe we'll find out why now when DK and C1872 speak with 4LHAD etc.

It’s the timing of this getting announced mate it’s bat shit mental.

 

[thevietnambear]

I very much doubt King has made this move without letting the other major shareholders know the plan. When the other investors came on board I’m sure then would have known of King’s end game for his shares.

If not, then this is a worry and unnecessary off the field distraction.

Feels like a buzzard move, my main concerns are the £13m not going to the club and the ability of Rangers fans to come together under one banner. History tells us a lot of bears can fall out over the colour blue.

Dave King already ploughed this money (£13m +) into Rangers

 

[AC_55]

A business of the size of Rangers with 8-figure losses and that relies on director loans and debt for equity deals isnt being run really well.

The model is clear though and there for everyone to see? The directors are plugging the gap until we have success.

The 16m loss this season could have been wiped off with player sales - credit to the directors for resisting this.

The model is; invest in cheap players, develop them and sell for profit - we are so close to being there that IMO we don't need radical change at this point.

Edit: away from the financial aspect its also clear for everyone to see how well the club is run. Recruitment, the rebranding, media, Castore etc. But as I said - I'm staying out it, it's friction we do not need at the moment as a support, given whats at stake this year.

 

[thevietnambear]

Would it be preferable if King sells his shares on the open market to anyone with the cash? It would benefit King financially - Not so sure it would benefit the club, In the meantime C1872 can continue hoovering up multiples in any forthcoming share issues.

Thats the last thing Dave King wants remember 2012 #NEVERAGAIN

 

[supersonic]

Your wrong

No, I'm not.

 

[iaatpies]

No more Craig whytes, so let's give Rangers the same £13m for the same number of shares.

Lets give Rangers money for new shares.

Until Douglas Park decides that he doesnt want his 15% shareholding becoming a 10% shareholding (for example - not actual figures). Until Craig Green and Charles Whyte come along and buy King's shares. And Park's shares. And add them to any new share issue that they've bought into to buy themselves an unopposable controlling interest in the club.

 

[iaatpies]

The model is clear though and there for everyone to see? The directors are plugging the gap until we have success.

The 16m loss this season could have been wiped off with player sales - credit to the directors for resisting this.

The model is; invest in cheap players, develop them and sell for profit - we are so close to being there that IMO we don't need radical change at this point.

If we're losing £10million a season then we are not close to being there.

 

[supersonic]

Lets give Rangers money for new shares.

Until Douglas Park decides that he doesnt want his 15% shareholding becoming a 10% shareholding (for example - not actual figures). Until Craig Green and Charles Whyte come along and buy King's shares. And Park's shares. And add them to any new share issue that they've bought into to buy themselves an unopposable controlling interest in the club.

DK will be putting in the same if not more than any fan vechule will and therefore will maintain his holding.

 

[RFC_Champions]

Well this drama is certainly gathering momentum through the forum.

 

[AC_55]

If we're losing £10million a season then we are not close to being there.

We have assets worth 10m + to sell to return to profit. That's the whole point.

 

[supersonic]

Lets give Rangers money for new shares.

Until Douglas Park decides that he doesnt want his 15% shareholding becoming a 10% shareholding (for example - not actual figures). Until Craig Green and Charles Whyte come along and buy King's shares. And Park's shares. And add them to any new share issue that they've bought into to buy themselves an unopposable controlling interest in the club.

Also heres my idea. Participate in as many of the clubs direct share issues. If they decide not to give us more? Then we go for Kings to make up the difference go 25+1%.

 

[supersonic]

A business of the size of Rangers with 8-figure losses and that relies on director loans and debt for equity deals isnt being run really well.

The club is being run well. The reason we are in contention for the league is the investment, thus the losses. Success will allow us to get away from the losses. If we were breaking even right now, tell me 4 of the current starting 11 you would sacrifice to break even? Roofe? Morelos ? Kent? Barisic? Tav?

 

[dentalbear]

If we're losing £10million a season then we are not close to being there.

But we are.

The model is to sell players to balance the books.

We have several players, who if we sold just 1 of them, then the loss is wiped out.

The directors have taken the decision not to do this just now to grow the football side of the business, and arguably make the saleable assets actually worth more.

If Borna or Kamara have a good Euros on top of a good Europa League run and us hopefully winning 55 then their value rises.

 

[supersonic]

If we're losing £10million a season then we are not close to being there.

Also, if we are losing 10m a season, them shouldnt the fans 13m be going into the club?

 

[iaatpies]

We have assets worth 10m + to sell to return to profit. That's the whole point.

So we sell them.

The business needs to be robust enough that it can retain those assets and sustain a loss for a season or to sell those assets and trust in the model to find adequate replacements. There is no point in having a business model that we don't actually operate.

 

[supersonic]

So we sell them.

The business needs to be robust enough that it can retain those assets and sustain a loss for a season or to sell those assets and trust in the model to find adequate replacements. There is no point in having a business model that we don't actually operate.

We will sell them. After we achieve success.

 

[Jimmy Jazz]

Above anything else, I have little reason to believe Club 1872 in its current form would be competent at board level.

 

[dentalbear]

So we sell them.

The business needs to be robust enough that it can retain those assets and sustain a loss for a season or to sell those assets and trust in the model to find adequate replacements. There is no point in having a business model that we don't actually operate.

And it will in the next 6-12 months.

Our problem has been our starting point when we got the spivs out.

If we had operated on a non loss making model then 55 would be a pipe dream.

The directors said that there would be accelerated growth for 3-5 years where they would cover the losses to allow us to become competitive.

SG said when he arrived it was a 3 year job to get us winning the league.

We are now in a position where we could sell any one of our high value players and still function on the park without a significant drop off which is where we need to be.

 

[Hillheadbear]

We need to be self sufficient.

2 ways of doing this -

1. Increase player sales to balance the books
2. Reduce costs to balance the books

Buying cheap, developing and improving then selling on is the only way to go IMO.

There is a third way.

3. Increase non-football revenue such as merchandise, catering, hospitality, lotteries, etc.

It isn't either/or but a combination of the three.

 

[Kilsyth Unionist]

Mate this isn't Football manager. It's incredibly unlikely Gerrard will be here after this season (if he wins nothing) or next season (if he wins everything and decides to move on)

Our business model HAS to be find someone like Alfie or Borna EVERY season and sell them for a massive profit OR make Champions League group stages every year.

We can't just have rich people chucking in money every season for ever. The business model we are running atm is incredibly risky and involves front loading huge investment to make up ground on the mentally challengeds and get into Europe from a standing start.

Once we start to make headway into Europe and because of that have assets in our squad (Alfie, Borna, Kamara, Tav, Kent) we need to sell them for a large profit and re-invest in the next lot to come in.

I think the chances of winning nothing this season are zero so he will be here next year.
Glasgow aint a million miles from his home, to me he will wait for the Liverpool job.
To be his tenure maybe like Souness, 5 years here then away to Liverpool.

 

[Grigo Yossarian]

Hadn’t actually thought about this from a board members perspective.

How must our most recent investors feel having paid at market value to find out another party are being given the opportunity to become biggest single shareholder at a significant discount?

I also think that this puts the board in a difficult position in terms of attracting further investment. Now this could go two ways, we either see NO further investment, or we see a push to dilute shareholding’s significantly therefore preventing C1872 reaching that 25% mark.

Current loans will dilute it of course so that will probably take C1872 below the 25% threshold when the loans are converted to equity, and that will continue to happen until we get to a sustainable financial position.

 

[dentalbear]

There is a third way.

3. Increase non-football revenue such as merchandise, catering, hospitality, lotteries, etc.

It isn't either/or but a combination of the three.

A more than fair point.

I was probably being overly simplistic - to plug a £10m hole the quickest way is player sales but totally agree that it'll be combined approach and the fact we'll actually get the cash from our merchandise sales going forward will help massively.

 

[Hillheadbear]

I will repeat what I have said in other posts.

I am very supportive of the fans acquiring Dave King's share holding as a strategy to 'future proof' the ownership of the club and try to prevent it being acquired by future spivs.

My concern is with the structure of C1872 and how they handle this opportunity as I have set out in previous posts.

 

[Hillheadbear]

A more than fair point.

I was probably being overly simplistic - to plug a £10m hole the quickest way is player sales but totally agree that it'll be combined approach and the fact we'll actually get the cash from our merchandise sales going forward will help massively.

We need to have a strategic business vision which looks to build a sustainable revenue stream for the club.

 

[ZvP]

I've signed up to Club 1872 but I kind of get the feeling that as things stand it has the feeling of a few folk sitting in their bedrooms organising this. It doesn't strike me as a well run business if even a business at that - they need to take the step up from fan club to something more in light of the recent announcement.

I'm hoping that this becomes a reality in the short term otherwise I'd be likely to pull my money too.

 

[EndOfDays]

Exactly

what percentage does king have 13%?
The directors have committed to cover 10m deficit this year and 12m next year? Can’t remember the real figures

when those sums are converted to shares what percentage will kings shares be?
8%?

it’s just plain daft imo

loan the club any money the money is invested in the team get share that way

if they done that I’d be right behind it

King has just over 20%

 

[supersonic]

Exactly

what percentage does king have 13%?
The directors have committed to cover 10m deficit this year and 12m next year? Can’t remember the real figures

when those sums are converted to shares what percentage will kings shares be?
8%?

it’s just plain daft imo

loan the club any money the money is invested in the team get share that way

if they done that I’d be right behind it

This is my thinking.

 

[Bearwood Bear]

The people that put money in, kept the club going till seasons like we are in and got rid of the spivs.
Laura fawkes cant do that and had zero business experience.
To me it will scare off any far east investors.

Unlike Mike Ashley, Charles Green, Sir David Murray, The Easedales..........

 

[EndOfDays]

I've signed up to Club 1872 but I kind of get the feeling that as things stand it has the feeling of a few folk sitting in their bedrooms organising this. It doesn't strike me as a well run business if even a business at that - they need to take the step up from fan club to something more in light of the recent announcement.

I'm hoping that this becomes a reality in the short term otherwise I'd be likely to pull my money too.

They are not a business though mate thats the thing, its run by volunteers.

 

[Baloo72]

After much deliberation, I’ve decided to no longer contribute to Club 1872.

I don’t think that it’s too much of a stretch to say that recent announcements are a bit of a kick in the teeth to our current wealthy investors, who are all loyal supporters like you and I.

If I’d invested the sums of money these shareholders had, I’d be concerned that a fans’ group could soon have a majority say in the club I’ve heavily invested in.

For me, the not inconsiderable sum of £13 million would do a lot more good going to the club than any individual.
And I say that as a big Dave King fan.

That the Club 1872 fans’ group seems to be extremely poorly run would only add to my concerns.

As someone who has contributed each month to Club 1872 for a long time, the King news just doesn’t sit right with me.

Club 1872 members were polled recently to ascertain interest in a much smaller shares purchase, yet there is no such similar poll for a potentially much larger purchase.
How can this be?

Our club desperately needs money – and, as a Club 1872 member, I’d far rather our money went towards new shares, so the £13 million that has been suggested goes to the club.

And I’m quite sure the current board would be very receptive to such a move.

King has every right to sell his shares – and I’ll be eternally grateful for all his efforts – but I think this is a terrible move.

I trust King enough to be able to sell his shares to other investors who would have RFC’s best interests at heart.

Apologies if this seems overly dramatic, but I can no longer support Club 1872 on this new path they’ve chosen without even consulting members.

Any money I’ll be spending from now on will exclusively be going direct to the club.

I appreciate some may think this is a ‘look at me’ post – it’s not... and I also appreciate that some may question the need for a new thread – but I think that people deciding to walk away from Club 1872 in light of recent events is reason enough for a thread in its own right.

Anyone else feel similar?

Up to you what you do with your own money

But if we do not take this opportunity then it is the end for supporter lead ownership.

 

[EndOfDays]

• New Oasis Asset Limited, 66,672,893, 20.37%
• Douglas Park, 40,000,000, 12.22%
• George Alexander Taylor, 31,574,998, 9.65%
• Stuart Gibson, 25,000,000, 7.64%
• Borita Investments Limited, 23,611,955, 7.22%
• Club 1872, 16,202,838, 4.95%
• John Bennett 15,800,000 4.83%
• Barry Scott, 15,145,000, 4.63%
• George Letham,14,774,516, 4.519%

 

[supersonic]

They are not a business though mate thats the thing, its run by volunteers.

Something with that much money going through it should be run like a business. It currently has 3 directors. Why not get more? Where are the working groups promised? Can get more volunteers to work on mini projects.

 

[kingstonbear]

Current loans will dilute it of course so that will probably take C1872 below the 25% threshold when the loans are converted to equity, and that will continue to happen until we get to a sustainable financial position.

Agreed. Unless of course the board are in complete alignment with D King and this is deemed as being that point. This of course would mean that any future director loans would have to be repaid.

 

[iaatpies]

We will sell them. After we achieve success.

If the business model is working then we sell them because the model is set up to allow for a continuation of success.

Right now we're not operating on a sustainable basis. We're chasing our first top flight title in a painfully long time. This isnt sustainable. If for some reason we don't win the title, do we try again next year and rely on another bail out? And the year after that? And after that?

We have a business model that we want to adopt in the future. Lets not pretend that it's being implemented and is working now. There may be a very good reason for not operating it right now but at some point we need to face up to the unsustainable losses and either abandon our intention to run the business sustainably or bite the bullet and sell players regardless of whether or not we're winning titles.

 

[Baloo72]

Something with that much money going through it should be run like a business. It currently has 3 directors. Why not get more? Where are the working groups promised? Can get more volunteers to work on mini projects.

100%
We do need professionals involved, that will also cost money. It real does now need to move to the next level.
Now or never

 

[EndOfDays]

Something with that much money going through it should be run like a business. It currently has 3 directors. Why not get more? Where are the working groups promised? Can get more volunteers to work on mini projects.

That costs money which means less going into shares.

For me, I have no interest in projects or statements or activism of any kind. All I want in Money in, shares out and a members vote every couple of years for who represents c1872 on the RFC board.