Lloyd’s Bank

Of course David Murray has a lot to answer for - Bastard that he is ; But , By F-CK , so do
Lloyds Bank . Especially the place man Donald Muir , who we were assured was a " Rangers " man
and was on our side .... aye right ..
There are numerous others who also harmed us , not just the above .
F-ck Lloyds .
 
I’ll Remember I’ll Try said:
There were 45k employees at the time I worked for Lloyd’s pal.

They don’t divulge everything to every employee. There’s a thing called client confidentiality and non disclosure agreements...

So I don’t know why
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I never asked about the other 45k working for Lloyd’s.

You never once spoke to the guys who worked a couple of desks away from you?
 
Arminius said:
The Lloyds debt was called in entirely because of the lingering effects on Lloyds of the banking crisis (the then named Credit Crunch) and the dramatic effect the banking and economic crisis had had on Minty's steel interests. It was nothing to do with Rangers finances. We were heading in entirely the right direction and reducing our debt nicely against a massive turnover at the time.

Lloyds knew that Minty could generate cash from the sale of Rangers and effectively forced him to do so, as they were shitting it that MIM would go under and leave them holding the bankrupt baby.

Minty then sold us down the river to an absolute cûnt that he knew was a shyster.

Murray should be a name that should linger in infamy forever more in the minds of Rangers supporters, along with numerous others who followed later (the spivs)
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Agreed. I hold Murray at the same level as Green, Whyte, Ashley, Somers, Stockbridge, Ahmed, Llambias, and the many other crooks that have darkened our door since 2012.

It was a perfect storm that brought us down, with the plan all along to "nail us to the floor". Murray opened the door and let the wolves in.
 
YorkshireBlue said:
Agreed. I hold Murray at the same level as Green, Whyte, Ashley, Somers, Stockbridge, Ahmed, Llambias, and the many other crooks that have darkened our door since 2012.

It was a perfect storm that brought us down, with the plan all along to "nail us to the floor". Murray opened the door and let the wolves in.
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I hold him a level above them.Its his fault.The mans a liar and a self serving charlatan.What followed were spiv bloodsuckers.
 
Paisley Ger said:
Bollocks. Can’t blame the bank for calling in the debt when they realised it was getting out of control, not just at Gers but within the Murray Group. It was DM who got Gers into that position and it was DM who sold the Club to the conman. Like many Gers fans, your indignation is misplaced.
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When the debt was called in, it was very much under control.
 
Greebo said:
The Government don't hold shares in Lloyds
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images
 
Murrays businessess (including us) had debt. When Lloyds aquired BoS they inherited these debts and therefore effectively owned Murray. Anyone who doesn't see, that virtually everything that happened from the time it was realised that HMRC were sniffing around, was entirely Lloyds doing, is a little bit naive I think. They were definitely pulling the strings. They found themselves in a position where recovery of their loans was in doubt pending the big tax case (not to mention their need for money due to the credit crunch) and surprise surprise they manage to walk away (placemen on the board and all) with every penny. Funny that eh? Murray got to keep MIM and Bain and others got big juicy bonuses for finding 'a buyer', any buyer as long as Lloyds got their money. What did Murray do (or should I say what was he told to do)? Sold us for a token pound .... as long as guess what? yeah as long as Lloyds get paid and they did. Where that money came from is of course dodgy as f@ck, but you won't see them offering to give it back to Ticketus or others.

So now when that all becomes clear, you have to start questioning how Whyte got involved in the first place, given his well known history and 'expertise' in the city of London and the fact that Lloyds were on the clock. They couldn't wait long for a legitimate buyer when their one and only concern was getting paid back in full (£18M iirc) and HMRC court cases were round the corner (which could have relegated them to penny in the pound creditors). All I'm saying is, hypothetically of course, he's a pretty good 'fixer'or 'mercenary' that you could 'invite' into the equation if you wanted to execute particular deals that would work out in your favour, while still maintain your respectability (again hypothetically I must stress). What would happen to these (normally failing) companies afterwards would now be none of your concern. Debt repaid, thankyou and goodnight, outta here.

Always follow the money and you won't go far wrong. Look and see who gets paid and the rest will fall into place. Murray made mistakes and put us in a vulnerable position, but he put himself in that same position. He gets rightly criticised for that and he destoyed his legacy. But I in no way think he should be held responsible for the behaviour of the individuals who took advantage of the situation for their own benefit. I've got a fair idea who these people are, what they did and why. Others will need to come to their own conclusions. But Lloyds are firmly smack bang in the middle of it all. No doubt in my mind about that.
 
Lloyds Bank
Halifax
Bank of Scotland
Blackhorse
Lex Autolease

All under the Lloyds banking group banner. BoS was the jacobite bank of choice anyway.
 
Paisley Ger said:
Bollocks. Can’t blame the bank for calling in the debt when they realised it was getting out of control, not just at Gers but within the Murray Group. It was DM who got Gers into that position and it was DM who sold the Club to the conman. Like many Gers fans, your indignation is misplaced.
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No argument re Murray, but when you look at the way Lloyds acted re Kilmarnock as opposed to Rangers it tells a story.
 
Heggy said:
David Murray's as well. He should have been looking at jail time
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Not popular on here, but tell me what charge? I think of him as a charlatan but he gave me some of my best times of my life, some supporters have really short memories, I am in no way defending Murray, but he did deliver , but what an ultimate cost, but anyone who says they never enjoyed the Murray years is a liar.
 
Murray's to blame , but the bank are equally to blame as they should have instructed Murray to settle up for its hmrc when it was affordable to so instead they let the bill increase with fines for non payment they are as culpable
 
Orange said:
Lloyds Bank
Halifax
Bank of Scotland
Blackhorse
Lex Autolease

All under the Lloyds banking group banner. BoS was the jacobite bank of choice anyway.
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Gordon Brown broke every finacial law there is when he gave HBOS to Lloyds bank. He just didn't want 1 in 5 uk morgages to go up in smoke...no chance of those home owners voting you back in...more chance of them turning up at your door looking for answers. Good opportunity to get rid of one of the big Scottish banks also.
 
Honeyger said:
Not popular on here, but tell me what charge? I think of him as a charlatan but he gave me some of my best times of my life, some supporters have really short memories, I am in no way defending Murray, but he did deliver , but what an ultimate cost, but anyone who says they never enjoyed the Murray years is a liar.
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I don't know where to even start with this
 
sheddensbear said:
He reduced debt by £50m by transferring the debt to another Murray company. When everything went tits up in 2008, SDM owed HBOS about £800m, more than his business was worth. Our debt was about £30m (went down to £18m) but the HMRC potential debt of £94m frightened LBG and they pressurised him to get rid of us because of this potential debt.
Only a fool or a conman would buy us with this potential debt. Guess what we got ?
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True. Also though, the later Murray finances were helped massively by the UEFA Cup run, great season on and off the park.
 
It was a combination of Lloyd’s battling to save their own skin during the financial crisis, Rangers being part of the Murray Group combined with the potential tax case liability hanging over our heads.

There is no use considering the Rangers debt on its own, any bank would have viewed the whole Murray Group as the same one risk (which is a sensible and rational thing to do).

These fabled tales of supposed Celtic men influencing decisions are just utterly batsh*t crazy and deflect away from the real culprit in all of this - Murray
 
Haining84 said:
I hold him a level above them.Its his fault.The mans a liar and a self serving charlatan.What followed were spiv bloodsuckers.
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And shamefully Gers fans were rounded on when bringing up Murray's dodgy leadership which allowed him to carry on almost unopposed as he surrounded himself with people that didn't question him enough. Bain being the prime example.
 
Honeyger said:
Not popular on here, but tell me what charge? I think of him as a charlatan but he gave me some of my best times of my life, some supporters have really short memories, I am in no way defending Murray, but he did deliver , but what an ultimate cost, but anyone who says they never enjoyed the Murray years is a liar.
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The club was in good shape when he arrived and could have succeeded without him. His actions almost killed us.

I choose to thank him for bugger all. The fans money and that of Dave King, Joe Lewis and others helped while his ego grew.

The smarmy bastard makes me sick.
 
I hsd an account with them since i started working over 45 years ago. When i found out their involvement in the fiasco i moved my account to Nationwide and encouraged my family also to do so.
 
It always staggers me that people on here think that folk make big banking and business decisions based on a football team they support.
 
Paisleyprod said:
The club was in good shape when he arrived and could have succeeded without him. His actions almost killed us.

I choose to thank him for bugger all. The fans money and that of Dave King, Joe Lewis and others helped while his ego grew.

The smarmy bastard makes me sick.
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What seems to be forgotten is that Murray took over Rangers at the ideal time. We had the best stadium in the UK let alone Scotland while Celtic had to re-build theirs.

Rangers are 5 league titles ahead of Celtic, compared with 3 ahead when Murray arrived. Yet 6 titles won under Murray coincided with the pre-McCann Celtic, when Rangers never had it easier.

Rangers were 4 Scottish Cups behind Celtic when Murray arrived and are now 5 behind.


The problem now is that Celtic have established a huge advantage due to Murray's failures.

The truth of the matter is that any 'benefit' Rangers drew from Murray's custodianship of the club was wiped out many years ago and we are still paying a heavy price.
 
Captain_Buns said:
The Rangers debt was called in due to the collapsing Murray empire...
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Was a convenient excuse.

Rangers debt was seperate, was sitting at £28m and within 5 years it was down to £18m and we were in agreement to pay £1m per year until it was paid off.

Murray Group was some £500m in debt.

The Rangers debt was nothing compared to Murray Groups Debt and our debt being paid off had no effect on the Murray Debt, indeed Lloyds wrote off a couple of hundred million of the Murray Group debt.

Lloyds whole role in this stinks.

Muir was a lloyds placeman.
Lloyds gave Whyte the mortgage for his castle 18months before he rode into town, he didn't pay one penny of that Mortgage for over 2 years, not a penny.
Someone from Lloyds phones AJ the night before the papers are signed and tell him that if they are not signed then that £18m is being called in as of midnight (i.e we will put you in Admin within 24 hours)


Lets narrow it down

Our debt was nothing compared to Murray Group
Our debt was coming down quickly
Lloyds knew all about Whyte, his business history, financial history and they themselves hadn't been paid for the mortgage they provided him.
They told AJ, Make sure its sold to Whyte tomorrow or we put you in Admin.

Now im not one for conspiracies, but it seems like the perfect storm if someone inside Lloyds wanted to stick the knife in.
 
womble3 said:
Murray's to blame , but the bank are equally to blame as they should have instructed Murray to settle up for its hmrc when it was affordable to so instead they let the bill increase with fines for non payment they are as culpable
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What was the basic tax amount before penalties were added.
 
Despite working in and around the banking world all my working life I don't know much or anything about Lloyds but was the Rangers debt actually called up with our assets being prepared for sale or was it just a request for the loan to be repaid.
All I do know is that Murray should never have signed the players he did and while that would have meant the years of success may not have been we would at least not have ended up in the mess we are in.
I note that some of our fans are still asking for money which we don't have to be spent on players but thankfully King will not go down that road.
However we are now moving forward and soon hopefully the past will be buried as we again reach the top where we belong without taking on debt we can not repay.
 
Buffalo said:
Was a convenient excuse.

Rangers debt was seperate, was sitting at £28m and within 5 years it was down to £18m and we were in agreement to pay £1m per year until it was paid off.

Murray Group was some £500m in debt.

The Rangers debt was nothing compared to Murray Groups Debt and our debt being paid off had no effect on the Murray Debt, indeed Lloyds wrote off a couple of hundred million of the Murray Group debt.

Lloyds whole role in this stinks.

Muir was a lloyds placeman.
Lloyds gave Whyte the mortgage for his castle 18months before he rode into town, he didn't pay one penny of that Mortgage for over 2 years, not a penny.
Someone from Lloyds phones AJ the night before the papers are signed and tell him that if they are not signed then that £18m is being called in as of midnight (i.e we will put you in Admin within 24 hours)


Lets narrow it down

Our debt was nothing compared to Murray Group
Our debt was coming down quickly
Lloyds knew all about Whyte, his business history, financial history and they themselves hadn't been paid for the mortgage they provided him.
They told AJ, Make sure its sold to Whyte tomorrow or we put you in Admin.

Now im not one for conspiracies, but it seems like the perfect storm if someone inside Lloyds wanted to stick the knife in.
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Can you imagine the plan that could be put together if Celtic knew every single thing about Rangers accounts and finances, and I mean every single bit, for years beforehand?

But we’re told that’s batshit crazy, tinfoil hat stuff, and no Celtic supporter would ever put Celtic before their professional work ethics!!! FFS!

Because let’s face it everything that Murray and Whyte were supposed to have conspired together for the club makes perfect feckin sense! Eh?
 
They are all to blame, but to varying degrees.

Lloyds used Rangers as leverage against Murray. Lloyds and HMRC were fed sensitive information by 'connected' politicians. Rangers were used as a test case by HMRC because it afforded them the convenience of little political fallout in England were an EPL club to have been pursued. Murray knew exactly who he was selling to and so did Lloyds. HMRC would've got wind of Whyte's involvement in any potential deal via Lloyds and the 'connected' politicians. And the rest is history.

Some would call this a conspiracy. Others would call this a series of unrelated events.
 
The very fact that one of their financial whizz kids came out and spoke on record at the start of our financial crisis .

About his knowledge of our EBTs and that He even tipped us off around the time that they were caught with juhninio tax affairs .

just shows that they had inside info. One of them might even have had documents that would "nail us to the floor "
 
Did Lloyd's bank implant their own representatives into other Murray's company boards of directors?

If anyone in the know - or has reliable background information & is able to answer the above - are you also able to advise an approximate percentage of company's who Lloyd's had implants on company's board's
 
Paisleyprod said:
The club was in good shape when he arrived and could have succeeded without him. His actions almost killed us.

I choose to thank him for bugger all. The fans money and that of Dave King, Joe Lewis and others helped while his ego grew.

The smarmy bastard makes me sick.
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I am in no way defending his despicable actions, I reiterate anyone who lived through the 9 in a row era could not have failed to enjoy it, of course the price we had to pay for it was horrendous but the feeling of absolutely domination over the other mob was brilliant.
 
The debt was always going to be called in at some point, once they have all there people set up to %^*& us over.

This was all well planned up to the point they seem to have forgot to keep 51% of the shares to keep hold of power.
 
I had a mortgage with Lloyd's long before the Rangers crisis. I would love to ditch them as my mortgage provider however I cannot get a better deal. Two separate financial advisors (one a family friend) told me that my current mortgage is unbeatable and that I should hold on to it till the end of its term.
So I'm stuck with them... Or change my mortgage and pay a hefty price.
 
Honeyger said:
I am in no way defending his despicable actions, I reiterate anyone who lived through the 9 in a row era could not have failed to enjoy it, of course the price we had to pay for it was horrendous but the feeling of absolutely domination over the other mob was brilliant.
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It was but people pointed out this man being a danger and not many listened.

We didn't need him to dominate. The tide had turned begore he rocked up.
 
Paisleyprod said:
It was but people pointed out this man being a danger and not many listened.

We didn't need him to dominate. The tide had turned begore he rocked up.
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Yes I get that and like yourself I wish he had never darkened our door, but he did and we have to move on, we will move on and rise again to where we should be.
 
Paisleyprod said:
It was but people pointed out this man being a danger and not many listened.

We didn't need him to dominate. The tide had turned begore he rocked up.
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It had been turned partly.

However Celtic has just won the double the season before he, and unfortunately for me, took over at Ibrox.
 
Honeyger said:
Why? Did you not enjoy the 9 in a row years? I speak honestly, I loved those years, but of course we have had to pay a heavy price.
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Honeyger said:
Why? Did you not enjoy the 9 in a row years? I speak honestly, I loved those years, but of course we have had to pay a heavy price.
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I'm not quite sure what 9IAR has got to do with the financial trouble Murray put us in?

You seem to be attempting to clear him of his abject failure to ultimately protect the club just because we won 9IAR BEFORE his reckless desicions during the Advocaat period.
 
Haining84 said:
I'm not quite sure what 9IAR has got to do with the financial trouble Murray put us in?

You seem to be attempting to clear him of his abject failure to ultimately protect the club just because we won 9IAR BEFORE his reckless desicions during the Advocaat period.
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How exactly am I trying to clear him? that is a bizarre accusation, just for the record I am in no way trying to clear him all I said was that I and many others enjoyed the glory years, of both the 9 in a row era and the Advocaat years, how you can interpret that as me absolving Murray of blame is crazy.
 
gersandproud said:
Did Lloyd's bank implant their own representatives into other Murray's company boards of directors?

If anyone in the know - or has reliable background information & is able to answer the above - are you also able to advise an approximate percentage of company's who Lloyd's had implants on company's board's
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We'll that's 2 hours now - since I posted the above & no one has answered - meantime I'll give my opinion based mostly on Guardian articles at the time - which of course could be suspect

If I understand correctly no other Murray company had a director enforced on them by Lloyd's bank & the approximate % of other company's where Lloyd's applied this tactic is less than 0.5 %

My perception of Lloyd's bank's role in this is that they were every bit as much a culprit in the attempted destruction of our club as Whyte green HMRC or anyone else
The above points proves they made a 'special' case out of us - why would they do that ? If it was to get at murray why didn't they impose a bank rep on the board of MIM ?
If they were concerned about getting their money back from us why didn't they employ the same tactics against much worse cases than ours ?

I realise niaivity & paranoia are explanations in these so called conspiracy cases but IMHO neither apply here
 
gersandproud said:
My perception of Lloyd's bank's role in this is that they were every bit as much a culprit in the attempted destruction of our club as Whyte green HMRC or anyone else
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Forgive me but do you actually believe that Her Majesty's Revenue & Customs did what they did as part of a concerted effort to "destroy our club". As opposed to, for example, that they thought there was tax due.
 
Greebo said:
Forgive me but do you actually believe that Her Majesty's Revenue & Customs did what they did as part of a concerted effort to "destroy our club". As opposed to, for example, that they thought there was tax due.
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Their “witch hunt” against Rangers actually cost the taxpayers money.

Almost destroyed an institution, cost the local Glasgow economy millions, cost jobs, saw Scottish clubs coefficient plummet, and drove an even bigger wedge into an already divided city and country.

Celtic won a watch mind you.
 
Buffalo said:
Was a convenient excuse.

Rangers debt was seperate, was sitting at £28m and within 5 years it was down to £18m and we were in agreement to pay £1m per year until it was paid off.

Murray Group was some £500m in debt.

The Rangers debt was nothing compared to Murray Groups Debt and our debt being paid off had no effect on the Murray Debt, indeed Lloyds wrote off a couple of hundred million of the Murray Group debt.

Lloyds whole role in this stinks.

Muir was a lloyds placeman.
Lloyds gave Whyte the mortgage for his castle 18months before he rode into town, he didn't pay one penny of that Mortgage for over 2 years, not a penny.
Someone from Lloyds phones AJ the night before the papers are signed and tell him that if they are not signed then that £18m is being called in as of midnight (i.e we will put you in Admin within 24 hours)


Lets narrow it down

Our debt was nothing compared to Murray Group
Our debt was coming down quickly
Lloyds knew all about Whyte, his business history, financial history and they themselves hadn't been paid for the mortgage they provided him.
They told AJ, Make sure its sold to Whyte tomorrow or we put you in Admin.

Now im not one for conspiracies, but it seems like the perfect storm if someone inside Lloyds wanted to stick the knife in.
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Despite the debt being legally seperate from Murray Group, im sure it would have been treated together given the common ownership/control.

This is before you lump in any consideration of a massive tax liability which hung over our heads.
 
ParagonofVirtue said:
Their “witch hunt” against Rangers actually cost the taxpayers money.

Almost destroyed an institution, cost the local Glasgow economy millions, cost jobs, saw Scottish clubs coefficient plummet, and drove an even bigger wedge into an already divided city and country.

Celtic won a watch mind you.
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So I take it that's a "yes" you believe HMRC were part of a concerted effort to "destroy our club".

I disagree, what Murray did by using tax avoidance schemes was what led to the problems. Not the UK's tax collector doing what they are there for.

With regards it actually costing the taxpayer money, that is not correct, no matter what people believe.
 
final_straws said:
Despite the debt being legally seperate from Murray Group, im sure it would have been treated together given the common ownership/control.

This is before you lump in any consideration of a massive tax liability which hung over our heads.
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Then Lloyds would be operating illegally.
 
Greebo said:
Forgive me but do you actually believe that Her Majesty's Revenue & Customs did what they did as part of a concerted effort to "destroy our club". As opposed to, for example, that they thought there was tax due.
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My post was about Lloyd's bank -

I mentioned HMRC because their outstanding payments were a big part of our pronlem not necessarily because I considered them complicit in an 'effort to destroy our club'
Of course they went after us because they believed we owed back taxes and so we did -
Whether or not they dealt with us fairly is another matter
 
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