Oldco tax bill cut by a further £3.1 million

HMRC get away with it because it's other people's money

They can afford all the appeals they need to get what they want, most companies can't. Throw in a couple of friendly judges like Carloway, and the odds are in their favour
 
HMRC is absolutely ADDLED with poets.

I used to work with one from Galway who was a previous HMRC employee and he would tell me that the team he worked in down here in London was stuffed to the gunnels with mentally challengeds from the deepest darkest depths of the mentally challenged lair, you know the type - the ones from over the hills where the sun sets style mentally challengeds, serious poet stuff.
 
stonewall Jackson said:
This vermin was a very instrumental and sinister figure in the whole debacle. The bastard tried his best to kill us off but ultimately failed so a massive GIRFUY to him and his mentally challenged gang.
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He destabilised a successful business for his own bigoted reasons. He had no right to use his influence to do that

In a normal situation, he'd answer for that in court
 
SouthLDNBear said:
HMRC is absolutely ADDLED with poets.

I used to work with one from Galway who was a previous HMRC employee and he would tell me that the team he worked in down here in London was stuffed to the gunnels with mentally challengeds from the deepest darkest depths of the mentally challenged lair, you know the type - the ones from over the hills where the sun sets style mentally challengeds, serious poet stuff.
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Hate the crown...
 
Mexi said:
It's a Government department. Surely they should be either SC or DV checked first? Any Republican sympathisers get their CVs binned
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I had heard rumours about it being infested a LONG time before I met this bloke. When I met him 4 years ago I was shocked when he told me that it was a crowd of boys from "back home" that he worked with

A self professed rabid bastard of the highest order, really weird.
 
Theportyunionjack said:
Thanks mate. I must be a few of those uncashed cheques. They've probably went to my old address.
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Might be worth dropping them a line to update your address because I think there will be more to come if they are successful against either or both of Duff & Phelps and HMRC. There will be an address in one of the Reports I gave you the link to above. Might only be 3p in the pound but....;)
 
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Mrs Ubik has just told me she worked with David Grier in the past and said he was a total prick.
 
daven37 said:
13.5m when you remove the disputed 51m.

A stitch up of epic proportions that goes to the highest levels of villainary.

Much easier to carry out and cover up such an elaborate crime when you have friends in the right influencial places at the highest levels.

So many scumbags profited from this and the only victims are the Rangers fans, and shareholders of the old company.

And still we have our nose's rubbed in it with supposed epic and unprecedented incompetence by then crown and prosecution. I can't believe they are so incompetent, so I can only conclude they are covering up the crime or their part in the crime.

Who was there to make our case? Nobody.
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Got to remember we only entered because of Craig whyte and the non payment of paye which was 14 million now 10 mil . Perfectly manageable debt. We were never put into admin over the big tax case. The tax case could have been appealed and disputed giving us plenty of time to raise the money in player sales to pay it off. If Murray had never sold to whyte I think the oldco still exists. Albeit the years following 2012 would have been tough as we sell any decent players to pay the debt but then the years were tough anyway even without it
 
Doctor Robert said:
To this very day, the only people to have been punished over this, have been the supporters of RFC.

It’s a national disgrace, and the corrupt businessmen who almost destroyed an institution, have all walked away Scot free.
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Hmrc were delighted at the final ruling stating that it made way to challege all other ebt users, roll on a few years they then said perusing ebt cases was unworkable so just drew a line under it all. Like many have said, the whole thing stinks.
 
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Bknowe said:
Was our old pal Carloway was it not?
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It certainly was. He also previously tried and failed to impose an illegal transfer ban on our club. We as a club should have objected to Carloway's place on any legal case whatsoever involving us.

www.bbc.co.uk

Rangers win court challenge over SFA transfer ban

A judge rules that the Scottish Football Association acted beyond its powers in imposing a year-long transfer ban.
www.bbc.co.uk
 
monkey magic said:
It certainly was. He also previously tried and failed to impose an illegal transfer ban on our club. We as a club should have objected to Carloway's place on any legal case whatsoever involving us.

www.bbc.co.uk

Rangers win court challenge over SFA transfer ban

A judge rules that the Scottish Football Association acted beyond its powers in imposing a year-long transfer ban.
www.bbc.co.uk
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monkey magic said:
It certainly was. He also previously tried and failed to impose an illegal transfer ban on our club. We as a club should have objected to Carloway's place on any legal case whatsoever involving us.

www.bbc.co.uk

Rangers win court challenge over SFA transfer ban

A judge rules that the Scottish Football Association acted beyond its powers in imposing a year-long transfer ban.
www.bbc.co.uk
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And for that he has been rewarded with the top Judiciary job in Scotland
 
ShootYouDown said:
Was it not a guy called Manus Fullerton ( or something like that?)
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Fullerton was from Lloyds bank, who turned the screw on Murray for debt.

I heard on the 4lads podcast with Dave King that Murray used his shareholding in Rangers as security for the debt he owed to the bank, giving them the leverage and that was what sparked it all off. No reason for DK to be making stuff like that up, but I don't remember that fact coming out during any of the shitshow.
 
Centralbear said:
I believe BDO are still contesting HMRC's calculation which was done on grossing up of £47m of EBT's, if done on net basis as BDO contest then tax due at then prevailing rate of 40% is, I believe, around £19m.

I agree even with interest it would be significantly below £30m.

I would also go further and question HMRC's right to apply interest back to 2001, after all the use of EBT's and the amount annually was posted as a note in Rangers account every year from 2001, HMRC would have been well within their rights to contest this scheme any time but chose only to do so around 2008/9.

Strangely, I believe this to be not long after a certain teams director/ senior cabinet minister's "Nail them to the floor" speech.

Perhaps someone else can confirm, or correct me, on this.
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Did we not get hit with a 100% penalty as well, which is HMRC basically saying we knew we were wrong and tried to hide it? Disclosing it in the accounts doesn’t suggest concealed and getting external advice which agrees that it worked in theory doesn’t suggest deliberately being wrong.

HMRC’s handling of this needs a public enquiry as there are simply too many stories from too many people going around about how it was handled by some of the people involved.
 
jim_baxter1960 said:
Haven't read through the whole thread but taking exhorbitant charges into account how much would the original tax bill have ammounted to? Sounds like it would have been easily affordable.

In the end HMRC damaged us to the tune of £100M or thereabouts.
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BDO are still contesting the "grossing up" method HMRC used, insisting instead it should be on net basis, this would likely approximately half the current £48m HMRC still claim.

If BDO are successful a bill finalised at £24m would have left us sellable to a bona fide buyer instead if into the hands of a fraudster.

So we lost a first team squad, conservatively put at £30m.

Loss of domestic income for years 2012-17 was was easily £80m, in fact we only returned to 2011 turnover amounts in 2018. And that's all before considering any European income, so depending on our performance I'd say 2012-17 we lost income anywhere between £100m - £200m in turnover

And who benefitted with 9 titles (8.75 anyway) and unrestricted access to CL qualifying annually.

It's only for the fact they fckd that up more often than not that they would have been over the hill and never to be seen again. Appointing Neil Lennon really has been a cloud with a silver lining.
 
SDF91 said:
Did we not get hit with a 100% penalty as well, which is HMRC basically saying we knew we were wrong and tried to hide it? Disclosing it in the accounts doesn’t suggest concealed and getting external advice which agrees that it worked in theory doesn’t suggest deliberately being wrong.

HMRC’s handling of this needs a public enquiry as there are simply too many stories from too many people going around about how it was handled by some of the people involved.
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Yes, HMRC applied penalties seemingly at amongst the highest they could, as to say concealment and bad intent.

The total amounts were disclosed openly in notes to the accounts annually in the section disclosing total employee ( not just players) salaries.

It seems strange that First Tier Tribunal and then Upper Tier Tribunal, presided over by experts in tax law, found in our favour, save one or two cases.

This fact alone would tell anyone of a fair mind that Murray's scheme, as misguided and dangerous as it was, and some may say morally wrong, it was not a blatant attempt at concealment, nor bad intent.

I'm fairly sure BDO successfully had HMRC concede about a year ago that some £25m of penalties were wrongly applied and reduced their claim by that amount to nearer £50m.
 
It just keeps getting more and more clear that there was sinister stuff happening, but as we've all seen the guilty people will escape justice...

What does give me some joy is that the plan imo was to keep us behind the scum for decades and it took us about 3-4 years to be back where we belong.
 
LetsGo said:
Fullerton was from Lloyds bank, who turned the screw on Murray for debt.

I heard on the 4lads podcast with Dave King that Murray used his shareholding in Rangers as security for the debt he owed to the bank, giving them the leverage and that was what sparked it all off. No reason for DK to be making stuff like that up, but I don't remember that fact coming out during any of the shitshow.
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Cheers mate. I knew he was involved somewhere along the line
 
Delboy1962 said:
I hate that wee scumbag with a vengeance,he enlisted friends in HMRC to go after us.
A test case my a**e,they were out to kill us but thankfully they didn't succeed, look at us now.
I wish only harm to that vindictive little piece of sh**e!!.
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I think a guest of honour invite to celebrate 55
 
Jelle1880 said:
It just keeps getting more and more clear that there was sinister stuff happening, but as we've all seen the guilty people will escape justice...

What does give me some joy is that the plan imo was to keep us behind the scum for decades and it took us about 3-4 years to be back where we belong.
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We‘re still in the process of getting back to where we belong, on and off the park.

It will take a full decade plus to recover.

At times that recovery has been in perilous doubt and occasionally Lady Luck has assisted us, don’t ever forget or forgive how close we’ve been to losing our club, or underestimate the magnitude of damage.
 
I have no doubt “nailed to the floor” Reid was behind this.

The wee prick stepped down from their board I’m sure not that long after we were demoted claiming his job was done.

I hope 55 fucking kills him.
 
EssexRangers said:
Is John Reid a wealthy man? would it maybe take a wealthy friend/associate to lace his palm with silver to persuade him to use his contacts for the greater good of their beloved or to the determent of their major, and more successful, rivals?
Or would he do it from jealousy or allegiance alone?

Was he brought in, in the first place, to 'take care' of us? or to actually run them?

Why such a divergence from his political career? was he even a 'football man' before his arrival at the chamber of secrets?

So, was it a career more, a new challenge or a laced palm that brought him to Glasgow?

We already know he fiddled his expenses at the expense of us, the British tax payers, so is it possible he now has some 'undeclared' offshore bank accounts to see him into his old age?
I'd wager that's a definite possibility.
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John Reid was as 19th Century Terrorist as they come, a bitter old bastard with a hatred for us so unbridled he would make Lennon blush.

As he was a sitting government minister, he would have had contacts all over the place and clearly he knew that Murray was up to no good in his later years, and mix that with his hatred he’s clearly thought it a good ideas to ask his pals over at HMRC to do a bit of digging and then use a fellow mentally challenged scrote like mad phil to peddle a story around. They both have a penchant for anything IRA related, and nobody had ever heard of the 3 named faux Irish fuckwit so it was perfect foil for the old mentally challenged to get some revenge on Rangers for skelping his beloved team year in year out.

It fucking worked anyway, that and the fact that Murray either got too greedy or too stupid, or both and look what happened after that.
Whyte was a patsy, he was a fall guy. One day it will all come out, I have no doubt about that.
 
jim_baxter1960 said:
Haven't read through the whole thread but taking exhorbitant charges into account how much would the original tax bill have ammounted to? Sounds like it would have been easily affordable.

In the end HMRC damaged us to the tune of £100M or thereabouts.
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And crucially they got very little actually IN to the public's coffers. Their bigotry lost them tens of millions in tax revenue.
 
uneasydaz said:
THE tax bill owed by the company which formerly owned Rangers has been cut by a further £3.1million

The tax authorities initially claimed £94.4million but that sum now stands at £64.5 million

The previous estimated figure was around £67million, following a write off of around £5.2m last December.

And the figure could still drop further with liquidators BDO claiming they have had a "number of positive discussions with HMRC in the last few months" with both parties agreeing "the next steps in seeking to resolve the remaining elements of the claim".

In a creditors' report yesterday, BDO, the accountancy firm handling the liquidation of RFC 2012, said that a legal case against the former administrators of the business is moving forward with a hearing set for May.

About £51 million of the tax authorities' claim is being disputed by liquidators - with the bulk of that relating to the use of employee benefit trusts (EBTs)

That issue, known as the "Big Tax Case", was seen as a significant hurdle to Sir David Murray, the club's former chairman, finding a buyer.

He eventually sold it for a token £1 to Craig Whyte in May 2011, who put the business into administration in February 2012


Attempts by administrators Duff & Phelps to negotiate a CVA, which would have offered creditors some form of return on their debts, failed with largest creditor HMRC voting against.

The business went into liquidation with the assets bought by a consortium led by Charles Green.

The latest reduction was from a claim concerning National Insurance contributions and PAYE which were not paid during Mr Whyte's ownership.

The bill was originally almost £13.4 million but has been trimmed to less than £10.3 million.

The liquidators agree that this sum and close to £3.1 million for the separate small tax case, relating to payment arrangements for the players Craig Moore, Tore Andre Flo and Ronald de Boer, is due.

Still in dispute is £48.9 million relating to EBTs, £1 million for the small tax case and £1.3 million of inheritance tax.

The update from BDO also shows a further £1.7 million was paid to HMRC in the 12 months to the end of October. So far the revenue has received close to £4.5 million from the liquidators.

A spokesman for HMRC told The Times: "The Supreme Court ruled in HMRC's favour in the case against Rangers' tax avoidance scheme.

"We continue to have a long-standing claim with the liquidators to recover the money due to taxpayers as a result of the [Supreme Court] judgment."

The BDO report adds: "The joint liquidators had sought detailed explanations regarding certain aspects of the strategy implemented by the joint administrators during the administration.

"Given the highly sensitive nature of the proceedings at this stage, we are unable to provide any more detail in respect of the claim."
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Yasss we cheated Blah blah blah
 
Borna Bear said:
I’ve been in dispute with HMRC for several weeks now regarding money I am supposedly due them. On Wednesday citizens advice sent me details of solicitors that deal with this type of thing and I was planning to call them on Monday to start proceedings. The total bill was £829 but they did admit that they were due me just over £200 that they sent through as a check because they couldn’t take it off my bill (weird I know).

Anyway, today I received a cheque for £1,329 from HMRC.

They are a total shit show, like seriously they don’t have a fucking clue. But because they are a public service and have the weight of the government behind them, there is no recourse for their shambolic professionalism and record keeping.

This shower have ruined lives with how they go about their business and I would fully support an independent review of how that department is run.

Cunts
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I’m in dispute every year with them.
I send my self assessment away and they always want more,
Every year, I give them what they want and appeal.
I’ve always won.
Makes me wonder how they come to such discrepancies.
Then I think £2,200 x God knows how many idiots like me x nine moths equals quite a bit of interest earned!
 
Trigga34 said:
Its pointless the damage was done, we are now in a good place.
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Not quite as we‘re still here. If the club died and we were sitting here reading this with Ibrox converted into flats and all of us having gone our separate ways in 2012 then yes the damage would’ve been done. Plan B is to get 10iar which is also failing.
 
Atheist Bear said:
Do we know from this if a CVA would’ve been agreed? Or is that something we’ll never know?
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Moodiesburn Blue said:
I think if The Blue Knights bid had been successful yes but the Whyte/Green/D&P stitch up put paid to HMRC voting for it.
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HMRC had/have a policy of always voting against a CVA in football cases where they have the power (more than 25% of the debt) to prevent a CVA being agreed. Principally because they take exception to the football creditors rule, which doesn’t strictly apply in Scotland, but HMRC will always vote against regardless.
 
Valley Bluenose said:
HMRC had/have a policy of always voting against a CVA in football cases where they have the power (more than 25% of the debt) to prevent a CVA being agreed. Principally because they take exception to the football creditors rule, which doesn’t strictly apply in Scotland, but HMRC will always vote against regardless.
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I think also if Deloitte (HMRC) proposed Administrators what might’ve been but what’s done is done. Take the point on CVA though problem was percentage of liabilities I suppose
 
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