Rangers B in the lower league system of Scottish football?

bilkobear

Well-Known Member
#1
I have always thought that we should be doing this in Scotland.

I suppose I have to include the Filth in this as well.

So many of our youth players need to be stretched and perhaps this would be the avenue to keep them focussed at the club, under the right football pressure and ffsake, think how it could benefit those lower leagues?
The B team would attract interest, it would attract fans at both home and away games, and it might even bring in some sponsorship for the lower leagues.

This needs to be done and quite simply Scottish football needs to start waking up to a changing world.
 

Mancbear

Well-Known Member
#3
Think we've missed the boat on this, now that a pyramid system has been set up. In the East it now goes down to tier 8. Currently there is no west league so maybe could put us below the Lowland League.
 

dh1963

Well-Known Member
#5
There's now a pyramid system that has teams from the Highland League and Lowland League being able to win promotion to Division 3. I can't see how we can now allow our reserves to bypass this and be admitted to the league.
 

Morelos2106

Well-Known Member
#7
It would help us develop players, but if your a Stenhousemuir punter you’d rather keep the existing set up than have up to 8 weekends of the season dedicated to playing Rangers and Celtic B teams.
 

iaatpies

Well-Known Member
#8
Absolutely not.

Lower league football deserves better than to be treated as nothing more than a tool of the top flight to play kids they have no intention of playing in top flight games.

If players are good enough to play professional football then by all means loan them to a team who will play them. They'll learn far more from being in a dressing room with professionals who are actually playing for their livelihoods. They'll learn more by playing in a dressing room that's fighting for promotion or battling against relegation. They'll learn nothing playing games against opponents who won't care a jot about games against them because the colt teams would be pegged back to a low level and the rest of a particular division would effectively be playing for promotion from 3rd or 4th place.

If the kids are good enough then get them playing for their parent clubs. If they need to be developed then let them develop by playing meaningful football at a proper lower league club. We need to value lower league football, not treat clubs and supporters with utter contempt.
 
#9
I know what the OP is saying but I believe our youngsters will get better and become better quality by playing against better European sides. And I believe the program set out for the lads in the coming season will benefit them more in the long run than playing against hackers week in week out.
 

Opta

Well-Known Member
#10
Both us and the tarriers were pushing for it to get put in place, majority of lower league sides voted against it. Now we’ll play sides from all over Europe, as far as I’m aware there’s a possibility that there will be a European reserve league before 2024.
 
#11
The main reason we have pulled out of the reserve is because this is not a possibility,,I know some don't fancy us playing a b team in the lower divisions but the reserve league is not working, we need to try and get our youngsters playing competitively, this works in other countries,,the benefits would also be there for lower league clubs,revenues would certainly be better,,,but we live in a country that won't try anything different and is ruined by petty jealousy
 

Skyy Bluenose

Well-Known Member
#12
I believe they do it in Spain and Germany (at least). Scottish football isn't forward thinking enough to do this. Developing young players and inevitably increasing attendance at some of these lower division grounds. It's too sensible for the dinosaurs that run the game in Scotland.
 

Stanley Yelnats

Well-Known Member
#14
All the Scottish teams are against it.

They think that we’ll have two teams, our ‘B’ team will work there way up to the top tier and our main team will move down to England.

That’s why it’ll never get voted through
 

Laudrup1

Well-Known Member
#15
I believe they do it in Spain and Germany (at least). Scottish football isn't forward thinking enough to do this. Developing young players and inevitably increasing attendance at some of these lower division grounds. It's too sensible for the dinosaurs that run the game in Scotland.
It's not just them either. A good few nations do it.

Michael Beale spoke on H&H recently and is very keen on it happening.

The Scottish game is in the dark ages and thoughts like "these leagues deserve better" and "it shows contempt" to the likes of teams pulling in gates of 136 for a game help hold it back too.
 

bob1873

Well-Known Member
#16
Could we not buy a lower league team or come to an agreement with someone and loan them a team? Just a wild thought? I guess dual ownership would scupper point 1 but not point 2?
 

Blaew

Active Member
#20
I think it is a good idea for our development and Celtic's, but I can see why lower division clubs would be against it. The flaw for me is if it is just us and them, how do you assess how good our crop is one year compared to Hibs the next year etc if. It would have to be open to all clubs or none at all to ensure integrity of competition.

Where I think it works and is accepted in Spain and Germany is the senior standard is high, its open to all clubs, and the majority play in regional divisions rather than a national league. In Germany you can progress no further than the 3. Liga.

It also works in Holland because the majority of clubs below the Erste Divisie have no interest in progressing to full time football - so it's not crowding out teams that want to get promoted as much.
 

iaatpies

Well-Known Member
#21
It's not just them either. A good few nations do it.

Michael Beale spoke on H&H recently and is very keen on it happening.

The Scottish game is in the dark ages and thoughts like "these leagues deserve better" and "it shows contempt" to the likes of teams pulling in gates of 136 for a game help hold it back too.
How do kids develop playing in a league where they can't be promoted? If they're good enough to play meaningful football then let them play it at meaningful clubs who are actually playing for something.

As for teams pulling gates of 136, there needs to be a massive overhaul of Scottish football. It doesnt matter if a team draws a crowd of 200 or 20,000 - people who go out to follow whatever professional football team they follow deserve better than to be told that their clubs are only good enough to be used as fodder for kids that big clubs stockpile without any real intention of developing. The answer isnt to devalue teams. It's to attract more people to matches, to value community clubs and the role they can play in getting people to engage with football and to actually try and build our game.
 
#22
The players/fans of lower league teams don’t want to be treated as if they are the same quality as youth teams. The youngsters would probably get the shit kicked out of them every week. Better to develop them against other top European youth teams
 

Laudrup1

Well-Known Member
#23
The players/fans of lower league teams don’t want to be treated as if they are the same quality as youth teams. The youngsters would probably get the shit kicked out of them every week. Better to develop them against other top European youth teams
Yet many nations who are far more successful and prolific in producing youth employ that system successfully.

It's not Scotland who are right about anything as far as football goes.
 

Alex Venters

Well-Known Member
#24
How do kids develop playing in a league where they can't be promoted? If they're good enough to play meaningful football then let them play it at meaningful clubs who are actually playing for something.

As for teams pulling gates of 136, there needs to be a massive overhaul of Scottish football. It doesnt matter if a team draws a crowd of 200 or 20,000 - people who go out to follow whatever professional football team they follow deserve better than to be told that their clubs are only good enough to be used as fodder for kids that big clubs stockpile without any real intention of developing. The answer isnt to devalue teams. It's to attract more people to matches, to value community clubs and the role they can play in getting people to engage with football and to actually try and build our game.
Would the increase in attendances not help these clubs, the vast majority of whom will never be promoted anyway.
I think it's a positive step which is why it'll never happen.
 
#25
Yet many nations who are far more successful and prolific in producing youth employ that system successfully.

It's not Scotland who are right about anything as far as football goes.
Having a look now I remember that likes of Real Madrid and Barca’s B teams play in the lower divisions in Spain. The only problem I’d find is you’d get the odd twat trying to break the young lads legs. Maybe it’s different in the likes of Spain due to style of play. But this is definitely something to be looked at again. I think we’d struggle to persuade the lower league teams to agree though
 

90minsofmadness

Well-Known Member
#26
I think we should be doing it in the English league system. Better level for our kids to be playing at, should compete against full time opposition.

Surely there's a way of buying a club and playing them through the youth contracts, we could also loan them players we are not keen on for 6 months like grezda to put him in the shop window.
 

iaatpies

Well-Known Member
#27
Would the increase in attendances not help these clubs, the vast majority of whom will never be promoted anyway.
I think it's a positive step which is why it'll never happen.
There wouldn't be increased attendance.

Cup games involving colt teams are typically the poorest attendance figures. Fans simply stay away in protest at the inclusion of colts teams. Unless you're going to get 500+ fans travelling to each colt away game? Lower league clubs would lose out.
 

Alex Venters

Well-Known Member
#28
There wouldn't be increased attendance.

Cup games involving colt teams are typically the poorest attendance figures. Fans simply stay away in protest at the inclusion of colts teams. Unless you're going to get 500+ fans travelling to each colt away game? Lower league clubs would lose out.
I disagree.
I think there would be an increase for our games in the lower leagues.

A pointless argument nonethless.
 

iaatpies

Well-Known Member
#29
Yet many nations who are far more successful and prolific in producing youth employ that system successfully.

It's not Scotland who are right about anything as far as football goes.
How many of these great players have actually spend meaningful time in Barcelona B or Jong Ajax? Or in the German 3rd tier or regional tier?
 

Laudrup1

Well-Known Member
#32
How do kids develop playing in a league where they can't be promoted? If they're good enough to play meaningful football then let them play it at meaningful clubs who are actually playing for something.

As for teams pulling gates of 136, there needs to be a massive overhaul of Scottish football. It doesnt matter if a team draws a crowd of 200 or 20,000 - people who go out to follow whatever professional football team they follow deserve better than to be told that their clubs are only good enough to be used as fodder for kids that big clubs stockpile without any real intention of developing. The answer isnt to devalue teams. It's to attract more people to matches, to value community clubs and the role they can play in getting people to engage with football and to actually try and build our game.
Yet these clubs to nothing to help overhaul the game and instead stymie any attempts at advancing the product.

It's about time we start listening to those who do things better than we do than pretending we have the answers.

The colt team attendances in the cup games are the result of a protest at change. When everyone gets on board with it and sees the advantages, they'd level and increase.

You can't devalue a professional team with 136 fans in attendance.

You're right about one thing. The game in this country needs a massive overhaul.
 

iaatpies

Well-Known Member
#33
Loads. Feel free to google it and educate yourself about it.
They typically play with the b team for 1 season. A year and a half at a push.

Spending a year playing against journeymen in the lower leagues isn't what makes these players better. It's better coaching and more exposure to first team opportunities.
 

iaatpies

Well-Known Member
#34
Yet these clubs to nothing to help overhaul the game and instead stymie any attempts at advancing the product.

It's about time we start listening to those who do things better than we do than pretending we have the answers.

The colt team attendances in the cup games are the result of a protest at change. When everyone gets on board with it and sees the advantages, they'd level and increase.

You can't devalue a professional team with 136 fans in attendance.

You're right about one thing. The game in this country needs a massive overhaul.
If you think that fans of lower league clubs are going to simply fall into line then you're kidding yourself and don't know any fans of lower league clubs.
 

strathavenbear

Well-Known Member
#35
Maybe something like a UK or European league set up for U21s could be looked at.
We're always going to struggle to get regular competitive football for our players when they turn 18.
Bar the odd exception the set up now clearly isn't working.
 

Laudrup1

Well-Known Member
#36
If you think that fans of lower league clubs are going to simply fall into line then you're kidding yourself and don't know any fans of lower league clubs.
I know loads of them actually. I've got friends heavily involved at a few of the lower league clubs.

It's not a matter of falling in to line. It's about modernising and surviving.
 

iaatpies

Well-Known Member
#37
Maybe something like a UK or European league set up for U21s could be looked at.
We're always going to struggle to get regular competitive football for our players when they turn 18.
Bar the odd exception the set up now clearly isn't working.
Radical idea

If they're showing potential at 18 or 19 then why not play them in meaningful games?
 

Laudrup1

Well-Known Member
#38
They typically play with the b team for 1 season. A year and a half at a push.

Spending a year playing against journeymen in the lower leagues isn't what makes these players better. It's better coaching and more exposure to first team opportunities.
It's all of it, not just one specific part as you suggest which is why the likes of our coaches who are very modern in their thinking are desperate for it compared to the reserve league.
 

iaatpies

Well-Known Member
#42
I know loads of them actually. I've got friends heavily involved at a few of the lower league clubs.

It's not a matter of falling in to line. It's about modernising and surviving.
You don't know them that we'll when it comes to their football clubs then.

Lower league fans have rejected games involving colt teams. They simply stay away. Shoehorning kids teams into a competitive league division isn't going to suddenly convince Clyde fans, Forfar fans or Stenny fans to embrace 4 or 6 home games a season against Rangers or Celtic kids in the hope that 4th place would give them automatic promotion and 5th to 7th would be a playoff spot.
 

Alex Venters

Well-Known Member
#43
If you think that fans of lower league clubs are going to simply fall into line then you're kidding yourself and don't know any fans of lower league clubs.
So the fans of Forfar and Albion Rovers, all 300 of them, will stop following their team because four times a season they havevto play us and them?
 

millar2318

Well-Known Member
#45
40 games. Not exactly years of development is it?

It's the 40 games for Jong Ajax that did it and not at all the top quality coaching and care they've been given since they were7 years old.
Well for de Jong it was 2 years Of development before progressing to the first team and a European cup semi final

I'd say it was an integral part of their pathway in addition to the early years coaching

See if it's not a good idea, what's the point in Madrid, Barca and bayern etc having them? Surely a waste of resource going by your wisdom?
 

LoganBear

Well-Known Member
Official Ticketer
#46
Absolutely not.

Lower league football deserves better than to be treated as nothing more than a tool of the top flight to play kids they have no intention of playing in top flight games.

If players are good enough to play professional football then by all means loan them to a team who will play them. They'll learn far more from being in a dressing room with professionals who are actually playing for their livelihoods. They'll learn more by playing in a dressing room that's fighting for promotion or battling against relegation. They'll learn nothing playing games against opponents who won't care a jot about games against them because the colt teams would be pegged back to a low level and the rest of a particular division would effectively be playing for promotion from 3rd or 4th place.

If the kids are good enough then get them playing for their parent clubs. If they need to be developed then let them develop by playing meaningful football at a proper lower league club. We need to value lower league football, not treat clubs and supporters with utter contempt.
Probably better tell the spaniards, the germans, the portugese and the dutch they are doing it wrong and should look at the scottish/sfa blueprint for producing and developing young players as we have been doing so well.

Oh and mibby tell lionel messi + 9 of the starting 11 of the spanish world cup winning team whose development was through the spanish b league system.

:)):)):))
 

strathavenbear

Well-Known Member
#47
Radical idea

If they're showing potential at 18 or 19 then why not play them in meaningful games?
Showing promise doesn't mean you're ready for a game in the top league though.
I just don't think getting a start in a league cup game and 4 or 5 run outs from the bench will greatly benefit the likes of Mebude next season, where as a season of competive football at a higher standard would
 

Laudrup1

Well-Known Member
#48
You don't know them that we'll when it comes to their football clubs then.

Lower league fans have rejected games involving colt teams. They simply stay away. Shoehorning kids teams into a competitive league division isn't going to suddenly convince Clyde fans, Forfar fans or Stenny fans to embrace 4 or 6 home games a season against Rangers or Celtic kids in the hope that 4th place would give them automatic promotion and 5th to 7th would be a playoff spot.
Perhaps my friends are you and more progressive than the ones you know and they realise there is a need for change.

You can't possibly tell how well I know them or not with regards football or what my friends views are on it all.

I think I'll end this here on that basis.
 

iaatpies

Well-Known Member
#49
So the fans of Forfar and Albion Rovers, all 300 of them, will stop following their team because four times a season they havevto play us and them?
They'll stay away from those games. Absolutely. They're already doing exactly that in the cup. You don't need to like it but that's exactly what fans are doing.

The handful of traveling colt team fans won't make up the shortfall in income. If you're stuck in a division with 3 colt teams then you're looking at 6 utterly dismal home gates from a season of 18 home games.

Do you limit it to 2 colt teams - the old firm?
Why should the 2 Edinburgh clubs miss out?
Or Aberdeen?

Do you let all 5 colt teams potentially compete up to League One? Or The Championship? Do you limit them to league two? Or the Highland/Lowland leagues? What will a kid learn playing League Two football that will help him jump immediately to a top flight side? Andy Robertson at least went from Queens park to the Arabs to continue his development. He was playing teams that were competing for something.

It would be far better for Scottish football to have fewer divisions. Bigger leagues. Remove the fear factor from playing kids in competitive fixtures. Expand the top 2 leagues to either 16 or 18 teams each and regionalise tier 3 and below. You'd see more managers willing to play kids in meaningful games.
 
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