Ten years since the bank forced David Murray to step down

chosen few said:
Anyone who could dupe Joe Lewis, Daniel Levy and Dave King is a master con artist, David Murray should have had a starring role in the sting.
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Did Dave King tell Murry not to sell to Whyte. For him to more or less ignot the rest of the board is shocking and probably the biggest indictment against him.
 
Rt. Hon. Bearman said:
Did Murray truly have a choice in selling to Whyte or did the bank force him to?

I know he infamously claimed he was "duped", but that implies that he had some choice in the matter. Is that just a face saving exercise?
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I don't believe he had any choice in the matter. I cannot believe the easy ride Lloyds get from our support. Those bast@rds, including any part of their group, will never get a penny of business from me. No accounts, cards, mortgages, insurance, nada.
 
Rt. Hon. Bearman said:
Did Murray truly have a choice in selling to Whyte or did the bank force him to?

I know he infamously claimed he was "duped", but that implies that he had some choice in the matter. Is that just a face saving exercise?
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Think he was under orders. Could have refused but that would have led to more problems with the bank. Realistically I think we were going into admin no matter whether we were owned by Murray or Whyte as soon as we got knocked out by Kaunas. The wage bill couldn't be sustained without European money.
 
Superrangers said:
I don't believe he had any choice in the matter. I cannot believe the easy ride Lloyds get from our support. Those bast@rds, including any part of their group, will never get a penny of business from me. No accounts, cards, mortgages, insurance, nada.
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Sorry but Lloyd's did what banks do. Look after their own interests. Rangers are not a charity and it was not the banks doing that Murray rolled the dice too much and too often.
 
Tugay83 said:
Sorry but Lloyd's did what banks do. Look after their own interests. Rangers are not a charity and it was not the banks doing that Murray rolled the dice too much and too often.
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Lloyds had their man or our board and a huge amount of ‘our’ debt had been cut. There was absolutely no reason for us to have been treated in the manner we were.
 
Superrangers said:
Lloyds had their man or our board and a huge amount of ‘our’ debt had been cut. There was absolutely no reason for us to have been treated in the manner we were.
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The debt was cut by consistently selling players and not replacing them while still managing to qualify for European group stage football. That trick could not be pulled forever, as illustrated by the exit to Kaunas. We had got as far as we could with that strategy and the minute it failed, as it was always going to go at some point, we were fucked. If you borrow millions of the banks money, they call the shots as long as you owe them.
 
Tugay83 said:
The debt was cut by consistently selling players and not replacing them while still managing to qualify for European group stage football. That trick could not be pulled forever, as illustrated by the exit to Kaunas. We had got as far as we could with that strategy and the minute it failed, as it was always going to go at some point, we were fucked. If you borrow millions of the banks money, they call the shots as long as you owe them.
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There is absolutely no reason why we could not have continued to operate in that vein. To say ‘we had got as far as we could with it,’ is simply
not true. You have made that up. We had a very good squad still and we could easily have continued to reduce our remaining debt. Lloyds role in this is not to be trusted as far as I concerned.
 
Superrangers said:
Lloyds had their man or our board and a huge amount of ‘our’ debt had been cut. There was absolutely no reason for us to have been treated in the manner we were.
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Because it wasn't our debt the bank was concerned about, it was Murray International's debt. By selling us, the bank was able to take a chunk of MIM's debt out.
 
Hillheadbear said:
Very true. But the other assets were unrealisable. The commercial property market had crashed and you couldn't give away those assets.
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So therefore Lloyds do have to shoulder a large share of blame in what happened. Forcing the sale to clear off a fairly inconsequential amount of debt in the grand scheme of MIM’s debt, whilst having their own scumbag on the board and doing the square root of fuuck all due diligence.
 
Superrangers said:
There is absolutely no reason why we could not have continued to operate in that vein. To say ‘we had got as far as we could with it,’ is simply
not true. You have made that up. We had a very good squad still and we could easily have continued to reduce our remaining debt. Lloyds role in this is not to be trusted as far as I concerned.
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The reason we went into administration is that without European football we didn't have enough money coming in to pay both player wages and PAYE tax to HMRC. Once we got eliminated by Kaunas, Whyte - unable to use his own money, because he didn't have any - had to choose between paying the players or paying HMRC. He gambled on not paying HMRC but they called his bluff and put us into Administration.

We were one elimination away from Administration under Murray, same as we were under Whyte. The bank knew this and forced the sale to make sure that when the house of cards toppled, they weren't left holding the baby. They wanted their money back. They didn't care how they got it back and had every reason to be sceptical about our chances of repaying it, as evidenced by the fact we went bust a few months later. Lloyd's role in this was wanting their money back. If you borrow from the bank, it's on their terms.
 
Superrangers said:
So therefore Lloyds do have to shoulder a large share of blame in what happened. Forcing the sale to clear off a fairly inconsequential amount of debt in the grand scheme of MIM’s debt, whilst having their own scumbag on the board and doing the square root of fuuck all due diligence.
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For Lloyds it was simply a business deal.

In my view, the fault rests firmly with Murray. It was because of his reckless business deals that we were put up for sale and it was because of his mismanagement that we squandered the millions that were invested by Joe Lewis and Dave King.
 
Hillheadbear said:
It was entirely foreseeable.

Those who were on FF 10 plus years ago will recall that I predicted that his foray into commercial property would end in disaster just as it had for many other 'entrepreneurs'.

The reality is that Murray was never a business man. Murray was addicted to the 'deal'. When you looked at the financials of his company, they were never that strong. Murray's success was built on doing deals and screwing people. As such, he was always just one deal away from disaster.

Not personal disaster of course. He very effectively ring fenced his own wealth from that of his companies.
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Not a businessman? I think Murray, in hindsight, should have got out in 98; rather than Walter leaving it would perhaps have been better had he looked for someone else to take the club on at that point. Football was out-running Rangers at this point, and perhaps a fresh perspective was needed for the challenges facing the club. In many ways, the recruitment of Advocaat makes sense, and it nearly paid off; but it didn't, and, in hindsight, ended up not being worth it really. Lawrence Malborough gave an interview a few years ago, where he suggested Murray had quite possibly stayed too long; quite probably that's fair, but we can really only see all that from the vantage point of the here and now.
 
Tugay83 said:
The reason we went into administration is that without European football we didn't have enough money coming in to pay both player wages and PAYE tax to HMRC. Once we got eliminated by Kaunas, Whyte - unable to use his own money, because he didn't have any - had to choose between paying the players or paying HMRC. He gambled on not paying HMRC but they called his bluff and put us into Administration.

We were one elimination away from Administration under Murray, same as we were under Whyte. The bank knew this and forced the sale to make sure that when the house of cards toppled, they weren't left holding the baby. They wanted their money back. They didn't care how they got it back and had every reason to be sceptical about our chances of repaying it, as evidenced by the fact we went bust a few months later. Lloyd's role in this was wanting their money back. If you borrow from the bank, it's on their terms.
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At the time .... pre 2008 ... it was clear that we needed CL group stages just to break even. Our business model was unsustainable (as is Celtic's today).
 
I blame Murray for selling us to a charlatan but I also blame the bank for forcing it to happen. They are equally culpable and all those involved are a stain on our club.
 
Hillheadbear said:
It was entirely foreseeable.

Those who were on FF 10 plus years ago will recall that I predicted that his foray into commercial property would end in disaster just as it had for many other 'entrepreneurs'.

The reality is that Murray was never a business man. Murray was addicted to the 'deal'. When you looked at the financials of his company, they were never that strong. Murray's success was built on doing deals and screwing people. As such, he was always just one deal away from disaster.

Not personal disaster of course. He very effectively ring fenced his own wealth from that of his companies.
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I remember that post and was trying to think who wrote it - it was you :)
Was it you who also predicted that due to all the property Murray was investing in, if there was some sort of economic downturn then the Murray Business was in huge trouble - then a couple of years later along came 2008.
 
WolverineBlues said:
I blame Murray for selling us to a charlatan but I also blame the bank for forcing it to happen. They are equally culpable and all those involved are a stain on our club.
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Murray should have held his nerve, but he handed over the reins to Whyte and fled when knowing full well the consequences for our club. As for the bank, it is inconceivable what they did to us.
 
Dedé Arneaux said:
I’m certain the bank’s man on the board (cannae mind his name- don’t take me back to the bad place) insisted the club be sold to Whyte as he would create the ‘get out avenue’ so Lloyds didn’t incur further losses (the potential HMRC bill) over and above the eye watering level of hbos bad debt in Murray’s name. Did Murray know what Whyte would do- absolutely, a common approach for business owners looking to avoid and disassociate themselves from a potential disastrous level of debt.
Did Lloyds need to do this - no, the clubs debt was being managed down in line with the banks agreement, but Lloyds got stung after the hbos takeover due to previously unknown bad debts surfacing and part of that was Murray’s.
We suffered as a result of Lloyds being pissed off with hbos.
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Donald Muir. He 100% put the bank’s interests above Rangers’s.
 
Arminius said:
The start of our 9IAR and the transformation of our fortunes was done by David Holmes board, before Murray was even mentioned.

The signing of Souness by that board, and the influx of top English Premier League players keen to circumvent the European ban on English clubs after Heysel, was the main driver behind the huge upturn in our fortunes. Murray then came in and hoovered up all the credit for those achievements, and also hoovered up credit, full stop.

I'm sure I remember reading that after allowing for funds taken out of the club by Murray, his personal net input to the club's finances was zero.
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100%.
 
I remember the meetings I was at in the early days of discontent with Sir Duped's "custodianship". Seems like a million years ago. Mark D, Davie Edgar, The Gub, John Glass etc. a dozen or so of us trying to figure out how we could shine a light on this charlatan and the damage he was inflicting on Rangers that would some day come to pass.
We took some serious shit from "our own" (the erudite Edgar in particular) and the media before it dawned on most, and by that time it was too late. I recall some of our number being ejected by a publican of some renown in this parish from his establishment with him and his acolytes singing "One David Murray, There's only One David Murray" as we left, heads shaking in despair. The irony of being in the vanguard of "Rangers First" would no doubt have escaped him and his friends. It was tough sell to the success sated average Rangers supporter.
What we have done collectively as a support in recent years to raise our Club from the embers of Murray's mismanagement and malfeacance, and the subsequent snake oil salesman that his actions bequeathed the Club too is remarkable. We still have long way to travel though, as the events of the past week have shown.
I believe it will take us a long time to recover from his stewardship of Rangers( if we ever do). We lost our standing to many in the game and to the wider society in Scotland and beyond. Due to ill health in recent years and family bereavement I took a step back from "the politics". After attending a meeting when Charles Green spoke, I said to MD, "this guy is a shyster and will f.uck us".
Subsequently I decided that I could not pay money to watch this guy rape our Club and I decided to give up my season ticket with a heavy heart. As someone who grew up in my formative years of watching Celtc win 9iar and following everywhere, anywhere during the fallow years of the early eighties, undaunted in my passion for all things Rangers, those painful years were nothing to this decision I made. Sitting in the house/pub while The Rangers were playing was more painful than any defeat I witnessed.
As soon as Dave King etc gained control, me and my mates are all back sitting together cheering on The Rangers and that's the way it will remain until my dying day. We have many battles ahead of us on and off the park. The battle we must never loose is avoiding another Murray, Whyte or Green stepping up the marble staircase.

PS Please spare me the "what about the trophies we won under Murray" replies. We could have achieved the same and more under a figurehead with less hubris and more fiduciary responsibility.
 
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The main problem was the EBTs. Our actual debt in the last years of the Murray reign was manageable, I think we were paying back £1m a year for 25 years.

However, if the EBT decision went against us we were fucked. For that you can thank Sir David Murray
 
Superrangers said:
There is absolutely no reason why we could not have continued to operate in that vein. To say ‘we had got as far as we could with it,’ is simply
not true. You have made that up. We had a very good squad still and we could easily have continued to reduce our remaining debt. Lloyds role in this is not to be trusted as far as I concerned.
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It's hard to remember all the details, but I'm pretty sure we had reduced our debt significantly and had a debt of around £21m / £22m against a turnover of £65m or thereabouts, whilst I think Hearts had a debt that almost equalled their entire turnover at the same time.

The debt was entirely manageable until the EBT issue came along and made the sale of the business absolutely impossible, of course aided and abetted by a rhabid tim filled mhedia and Inland Revenue staff breaching their confidentiality agreements and never being held to account for having done so.
 
Marstonbear said:
The main problem was the EBTs. Our actual debt in the last years of the Murray reign was manageable, I think we were paying back £1m a year for 25 years.

However, if the EBT decision went against us we were fucked. For that you can thank Sir David Murray
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For Murray, the EBTs were just another 'deal'. It is typical of the man that he wasn't capable of managing them properly and which sunk us in the end.
 
Tugay83 said:
The reason we went into administration is that without European football we didn't have enough money coming in to pay both player wages and PAYE tax to HMRC. Once we got eliminated by Kaunas, Whyte - unable to use his own money, because he didn't have any - had to choose between paying the players or paying HMRC. He gambled on not paying HMRC but they called his bluff and put us into Administration.

We were one elimination away from Administration under Murray, same as we were under Whyte. The bank knew this and forced the sale to make sure that when the house of cards toppled, they weren't left holding the baby. They wanted their money back. They didn't care how they got it back and had every reason to be sceptical about our chances of repaying it, as evidenced by the fact we went bust a few months later. Lloyd's role in this was wanting their money back. If you borrow from the bank, it's on their terms.
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Not paying HMRC is only going to end one way, there is no “gamble”

Whyte wanted to get us into administration as soon as took over. I recall him handing long and fat contracts to I believe Davis and McGregor almost as soon as he was in the door
 
Jan Wyck said:
I remember the meetings I was at in the early days of discontent with Sir Duped's "custodianship". Seems like a million years ago. Mark D, Davie Edgar, The Gub, John Glass etc. a dozen or so of us trying to figure out how we could shine a light on this charlatan and the damage he was inflicting on Rangers that would some day come to pass.
We took some serious shit from "our own" (the erudite Edgar in particular) and the media before it dawned on most, and by that time it was too late. I recall some of our number being ejected by a publican of some renown in this parish from his establishment with him and his acolytes singing "One David Murray, There's only One David Murray" as we left, heads shaking in despair. The irony of being in the vanguard of "Rangers First" would no doubt have escaped him and his friends. It was tough sell to the success sated average Rangers supporter.
What we have done collectively as a support in recent years to raise our Club from the embers of Murray's mismanagement and malfeacance, and the subsequent snake oil salesman that his actions bequeathed the Club too is remarkable. We still have long way to travel though, as the events of the past week have shown.
I believe it will take us a long time to recover from his stewardship of Rangers( if we ever do). We lost our standing to many in the game and to the wider society in Scotland and beyond. Due to ill health in recent years and family bereavement I took a step back from "the politics". After attending a meeting when Charles Green spoke, I said to MD, "this guy is a shyster and will f.uck us".
Subsequently I decided that I could not pay money to watch this guy rape our Club and I decided to give up my season ticket with a heavy heart. As someone who grew up in my formative years of watching Celtc win 9iar and following everywhere, anywhere during the fallow years of the early eighties, undaunted in my passion for all things Rangers, those painful years were nothing to this decision I made. Sitting in the house/pub while The Rangers were playing was more painful than any defeat I witnessed.
As soon as Dave King etc gained control, me and my mates are all back sitting together cheering on The Rangers and that's the way it will remain until my dying day. We have many battles ahead of us on and off the park. The battle we must never loose is avoiding another Murray, Whyte or Green stepping up the marble staircase.

PS Please spare me the "what about the trophies we won under Murray" replies. We could have achieved the same and more under a figurehead with less hubris and more fiduciary responsibility.
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I wish I'd met you guys back then
 
Tugay83 said:
Sorry but Lloyd's did what banks do. Look after their own interests. Rangers are not a charity and it was not the banks doing that Murray rolled the dice too much and too often.
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Murray was in IIRC a £700 million hole with Lloyd’s, at the end they would have been telling him what to do to save M.I.H.
 
Hated him from the start. Got grief on FF because of it and even from family members who though he was the 2nd coming.
Didn’t do any good though thinking this, I will forever be very judgemental of whoever owns the club.
 
Rt. Hon. Bearman said:
He didn't spend his own money.
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GodStruth said:
Nothing Murray did led to us winning any of those nine titles - we were one of Britains biggest and richest clubs when he took over, with a team full of top quality players. Our main challenge came often from Aberdeen or Motherwell!

As for Europe, there is an argument we should have done consistently better on that stage
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Thank you both. This is information that’s important to keep aware of. More so than, “he sold us to Whyte”!
 
From my own point of view, I would have rathered the old board structure had stayed in place, where no majority control lay the hand of any one individual. The stadium had been built, and in my mind Jock Wallace was building a team for the future; because of all that's happened in the last few years that became my thoughts on it all. After the Lawrence group wanted to sell, were there a great many options for the club at the time?
 
Glasgow is a small place in business.
He owed large amounts of money to a roofing supplies company around the corner from Ibrox.
Him and his old man were chancers.
This is before he took over Rangers.
This company was taking him to court.
A few phone calls/ investigation etc and it was obvious he was a rogue.
Murray was interested and he will deny all.
But he knew.
 
Marstonbear said:
Not paying HMRC is only going to end one way, there is no “gamble”

Whyte wanted to get us into administration as soon as took over. I recall him handing long and fat contracts to I believe Davis and McGregor almost as soon as he was in the door
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To protect their value so he could sell them. They were multi million pound assets and crucial playere. Not giving them extensions would have been crazy and financially self defeating.
 
Hillheadbear said:
It was entirely foreseeable.

Those who were on FF 10 plus years ago will recall that I predicted that his foray into commercial property would end in disaster just as it had for many other 'entrepreneurs'.

The reality is that Murray was never a business man. Murray was addicted to the 'deal'. When you looked at the financials of his company, they were never that strong. Murray's success was built on doing deals and screwing people. As such, he was always just one deal away from disaster.

Not personal disaster of course. He very effectively ring fenced his own wealth from that of his companies.
Click to expand...
Out of curiosity HB, mind explaining the “Goooaaaaaalllll?” Is all about? Probably get asked a lot.
 
Dedé Arneaux said:
I’m certain the bank’s man on the board (cannae mind his name- don’t take me back to the bad place) insisted the club be sold to Whyte as he would create the ‘get out avenue’ so Lloyds didn’t incur further losses (the potential HMRC bill) over and above the eye watering level of hbos bad debt in Murray’s name. Did Murray know what Whyte would do- absolutely, a common approach for business owners looking to avoid and disassociate themselves from a potential disastrous level of debt.
Did Lloyds need to do this - no, the clubs debt was being managed down in line with the banks agreement, but Lloyds got stung after the hbos takeover due to previously unknown bad debts surfacing and part of that was Murray’s.
We suffered as a result of Lloyds being pissed off with hbos.
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Eric Daniels. The same bell end that thought it would be a good idea for Lloyds to buy the Bank of Scotland. The share price over a decade on has still not recovered.

If that takeover of the bank didn’t happen, the debt wouldn’t have been called in. I’m almost certain of that...
 
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