Ten years since the bank forced David Murray to step down

I remember the meetings I was at in the early days of discontent with Sir Duped's "custodianship". Seems like a million years ago. Mark D, Davie Edgar, The Gub, John Glass etc. a dozen or so of us trying to figure out how we could shine a light on this charlatan and the damage he was inflicting on Rangers that would some day come to pass.
We took some serious shit from "our own" (the erudite Edgar in particular) and the media before it dawned on most, and by that time it was too late. I recall some of our number being ejected by a publican of some renown in this parish from his establishment with him and his acolytes singing "One David Murray, There's only One David Murray" as we left, heads shaking in despair. The irony of being in the vanguard of "Rangers First" would no doubt have escaped him and his friends. It was tough sell to the success sated average Rangers supporter.
What we have done collectively as a support in recent years to raise our Club from the embers of Murray's mismanagement and malfeacance, and the subsequent snake oil salesman that his actions bequeathed the Club too is remarkable. We still have long way to travel though, as the events of the past week have shown.
I believe it will take us a long time to recover from his stewardship of Rangers( if we ever do). We lost our standing to many in the game and to the wider society in Scotland and beyond. Due to ill health in recent years and family bereavement I took a step back from "the politics". After attending a meeting when Charles Green spoke, I said to MD, "this guy is a shyster and will f.uck us".
Subsequently I decided that I could not pay money to watch this guy rape our Club and I decided to give up my season ticket with a heavy heart. As someone who grew up in my formative years of watching Celtc win 9iar and following everywhere, anywhere during the fallow years of the early eighties, undaunted in my passion for all things Rangers, those painful years were nothing to this decision I made. Sitting in the house/pub while The Rangers were playing was more painful than any defeat I witnessed.
As soon as Dave King etc gained control, me and my mates are all back sitting together cheering on The Rangers and that's the way it will remain until my dying day. We have many battles ahead of us on and off the park. The battle we must never loose is avoiding another Murray, Whyte or Green stepping up the marble staircase.

PS Please spare me the "what about the trophies we won under Murray" replies. We could have achieved the same and more under a figurehead with less hubris and more fiduciary responsibility.
I can remember listening to David Edgar on the radio warning us Rangers fans that Murray was driving us into the ground. I was young I didn't want to listen to it. I even hated David Edgar and thought to myself "RUBBISH" he must be a secret Tim! He told us the truth but I didn't want to listen! I wish I did. Sorry David Edgar you only wanted the best for Rangers and my ignorance blinded me to the truth.
 
The debt was cut by consistently selling players and not replacing them while still managing to qualify for European group stage football. That trick could not be pulled forever, as illustrated by the exit to Kaunas. We had got as far as we could with that strategy and the minute it failed, as it was always going to go at some point, we were fucked. If you borrow millions of the banks money, they call the shots as long as you owe them.

Your spot on about the bank (Lloyd’s). The banking crisis and the takeover of Hbos was the reason it was called in, in my opinion. Lloyd’s were in a bad way after that and calling up every bit of debt / security they could. It was an absolute shit storm
 
I can remember listening to David Edgar on the radio warning us Rangers fans that Murray was driving us into the ground. I was young I didn't want to listen to it. I even hated David Edgar and thought to myself "RUBBISH" he must be a secret Tim! He told us the truth but I didn't want to listen! I wish I did. Sorry David Edgar you only wanted the best for Rangers and my ignorance blinded me to the truth.

You were far from being alone. There was a very sizable group of Bears who thought that the best thing for Rangers was to have a sugar daddy who would keep pumping in the millions. They thought Murray was the man.

When one is just a fan and without access to inside information then you can only make judgements based on what you know, what you are told and what you read in the mhedia. Murray always (and still does) received a very favourable press.
 
I think there is a lot of hindsight being applied here. Obviously some had foresight but not many.
Murray's rangers are the rangers of my youth and therefore I remember him somewhat fondly but with sorrow for the end. He took over rangers in an era where a little money looked like a lot (pre premiership basically) and brought in some incredible signings. Like many Scots throughout history he misunderstood what a shitty little backwater we are, he thought he could get us a seat at the big boys table and that we would keep it. Had we made the final that year rather than Tapie's deeply corrupt Marseille - who knows? But I doubt it even then. As lawwell and his band of four will soon work out, no one cares about Scotland and its feeble four and a bit million TV audience.
He trusted the wrong people - Smith was a domestic genius but not until after his return to Ibrox did he adjust his team for Europe. Advocaat was given far too much money, signing guys for millions then ditching them days later (Christiansen, tugay). I blame advocaat far more for our demise, he was supposed to take us to the next level, but just threw money around rather than do any coaching. Murray wanted to be number one too much, even at the end we had players we could have sold to bring the debt down rapidly and downsized if he had been willing to be number two for a few years, but he had grown too used to success and had too much to lose (if they spend 5 I'll spend ten would have been the stick he would have been beaten with). Someone says above he should have got out earlier; if he had then I believe he would have been remembered very fondly indeed.
 
I think there is a lot of hindsight being applied here. Obviously some had foresight but not many.
Murray's rangers are the rangers of my youth and therefore I remember him somewhat fondly but with sorrow for the end. He took over rangers in an era where a little money looked like a lot (pre premiership basically) and brought in some incredible signings. Like many Scots throughout history he misunderstood what a shitty little backwater we are, he thought he could get us a seat at the big boys table and that we would keep it. Had we made the final that year rather than Tapie's deeply corrupt Marseille - who knows? But I doubt it even then. As lawwell and his band of four will soon work out, no one cares about Scotland and its feeble four and a bit million TV audience.
He trusted the wrong people - Smith was a domestic genius but not until after his return to Ibrox did he adjust his team for Europe. Advocaat was given far too much money, signing guys for millions then ditching them days later (Christiansen, tugay). I blame advocaat far more for our demise, he was supposed to take us to the next level, but just threw money around rather than do any coaching. Murray wanted to be number one too much, even at the end we had players we could have sold to bring the debt down rapidly and downsized if he had been willing to be number two for a few years, but he had grown too used to success and had too much to lose (if they spend 5 I'll spend ten would have been the stick he would have been beaten with). Someone says above he should have got out earlier; if he had then I believe he would have been remembered very fondly indeed.
You blame Advocaat!!:oops:

Did Dick Advocaat control our finances?

Did Dick Advocaat implement EBTs?

Did Dick Advocaat sell the club to Whyte?

Did Dick Advocaat lie about being “duped”?

David Murray is a fraud and a charlatan who was the root cause of a decade of utter carnage for our club and still to this very day he lies about it.
 
Eric Daniels. The same bell end that thought it would be a good idea for Lloyds to buy the Bank of Scotland. The share price over a decade on has still not recovered.

If that takeover of the bank didn’t happen, the debt wouldn’t have been called in. I’m almost certain of that...

You’re right but hbos would have gone bust had Gordon brown not instructed Lloyd’s to step in. Murray and the bottomless pit lenders at hbos were as much to blame as each other. From the banks point of view the tail was wagging the dog.
 
Perhaps he did but the net effect was to make it his debt rather than ours. He would have been fine had it not been for the credit crunch.

Yep, had the banks not struggled we’d still have been salivating over SDMs involvement in the G58 regeneration plans - hotels, retail etc etc.
His debt was always gonna be our problem. It was runaway debt he couldn’t service, all on the never never secured no doubt against the captain of industry’s knighthood and reputation above all else and all sense.
 
I think there is a lot of hindsight being applied here. Obviously some had foresight but not many.
Murray's rangers are the rangers of my youth and therefore I remember him somewhat fondly but with sorrow for the end. He took over rangers in an era where a little money looked like a lot (pre premiership basically) and brought in some incredible signings. Like many Scots throughout history he misunderstood what a shitty little backwater we are, he thought he could get us a seat at the big boys table and that we would keep it. Had we made the final that year rather than Tapie's deeply corrupt Marseille - who knows? But I doubt it even then. As lawwell and his band of four will soon work out, no one cares about Scotland and its feeble four and a bit million TV audience.
He trusted the wrong people - Smith was a domestic genius but not until after his return to Ibrox did he adjust his team for Europe. Advocaat was given far too much money, signing guys for millions then ditching them days later (Christiansen, tugay). I blame advocaat far more for our demise, he was supposed to take us to the next level, but just threw money around rather than do any coaching. Murray wanted to be number one too much, even at the end we had players we could have sold to bring the debt down rapidly and downsized if he had been willing to be number two for a few years, but he had grown too used to success and had too much to lose (if they spend 5 I'll spend ten would have been the stick he would have been beaten with). Someone says above he should have got out earlier; if he had then I believe he would have been remembered very fondly indeed.

I don’t think the £80m debt accrued before the end of Advocaat’s reign registered with the support as it should. It was around this time Murray started the EBTs.

We simply couldn’t afford to spend the way we were.

Unless the club was remarkably successful - meaning several consecutive titles and CL Group Stages - it was always likely to end in tears.

He gambled the future of the club and the support paid the price for his failure.

Other clubs used EBTs but not to anything like the extent that their survival was threatened.
 
Had successive managers, and their expensive signings, got us in the CL and then the second group stages regularly, then we would've been in a whole better shape financially. Laudrup, Boli, Ferguson, Gazza, the Italians, Thern and so on weren't bought to only win the SPL but to make a mark in Europe. We patently didn't and I lay the whole blame on the managers and players for that. They didn't perform to the standard that they could. Yes, Murray hideously mismanaged the Club, but the managers he appointed and players they signed let us down catastrophically on the big stage.
 
Sorry but Lloyd's did what banks do. Look after their own interests. Rangers are not a charity and it was not the banks doing that Murray rolled the dice too much and too often.

Hbos danced to Murray’s tune
The main problem was the EBTs. Our actual debt in the last years of the Murray reign was manageable, I think we were paying back £1m a year for 25 years.

However, if the EBT decision went against us we were fucked. For that you can thank Sir David Murray

The EBTs were only a problem because hbos failed and Lloyds bank fainted at the extent of hbos debt. Part of that was MIMs and Lloyds basically said %^*& this shit- no more.

The hbos debt nearly brought down Lloyds too, Lloyds share price was around the £2 / £3 mark after taking over hbos (supposedly it had bottomed out) it nosedived to under £1 a few weeks later when the true extent of the hbos mess became clear.

You’re right our debt was being managed down, I recall within agreed parameters as well but Lloyds were very pissed off.
 
Can't believe there are some here who would defend Murray. His legacy is Whyte/Green/Ashley, liquidation, the third division, Ian blacks and Moshni's.
He took a world famous institution and used it to increase his own profile and stroke his ego, while spunking away millions of pounds of other people's money. Ran into the ground and left it in tatters.
There was never any forward planning or strategy, just threw money at every problem until it bit us in the arse.
And when it was all said and done, what did it cost him? Nothing. He didn't lose a penny of his own money due to Rangers. I would feel a bit better if he'd ended up burst, but big business doesn't work like that. He got to %^*& off to France and leave the supporters with the mess that he created.
He named our training ground after himself ffs. The man is a rat, and every supporter should be made aware forevermore, imo.
 
Sir Duped A Lot. The man who really did walk away and without so much as a backwards glance. The self proclaimed "Custodian" who undermined the very meaning of the word.
 
Can't believe there are some here who would defend Murray. His legacy is Whyte/Green/Ashley, liquidation, the third division, Ian blacks and Moshni's.
He took a world famous institution and used it to increase his own profile and stroke his ego, while spunking away millions of pounds of other people's money. Ran into the ground and left it in tatters.
There was never any forward planning or strategy, just threw money at every problem until it bit us in the arse.
And when it was all said and done, what did it cost him? Nothing. He didn't lose a penny of his own money due to Rangers. I would feel a bit better if he'd ended up burst, but big business doesn't work like that. He got to %^*& off to France and leave the supporters with the mess that he created.
He named our training ground after himself ffs. The man is a rat, and every supporter should be made aware forevermore, imo.
Well said squire
 
I’m certain the bank’s man on the board (cannae mind his name- don’t take me back to the bad place) insisted the club be sold to Whyte as he would create the ‘get out avenue’ so Lloyds didn’t incur further losses (the potential HMRC bill) over and above the eye watering level of hbos bad debt in Murray’s name. Did Murray know what Whyte would do- absolutely, a common approach for business owners looking to avoid and disassociate themselves from a potential disastrous level of debt.
Did Lloyds need to do this - no, the clubs debt was being managed down in line with the banks agreement, but Lloyds got stung after the hbos takeover due to previously unknown bad debts surfacing and part of that was Murray’s.
We suffered as a result of Lloyds being pissed off with hbos.
The Lloyds man who pulled the trigger on the debt recovery was a season ticket holder at Celtic. The debt itself was serviceable however once they knew Minty was in trouble with Murray metals they could smell blood and decided to recoup the debt .
 
You think their paths had never crossed? And Whyte's old man too?

Whyte was brought in to the game after the previous 'buyer' had been outed in the press as being penniless.

Bearing in mind that you're an anonymous poster on the internet, spill yer guts in their entirety - no cryptic messages or intimations; concise and clear - or else you're an attention seeking throbber and due a ban.
 
The reason we went into administration is that without European football we didn't have enough money coming in to pay both player wages and PAYE tax to HMRC. Once we got eliminated by Kaunas, Whyte - unable to use his own money, because he didn't have any - had to choose between paying the players or paying HMRC. He gambled on not paying HMRC but they called his bluff and put us into Administration.

We were one elimination away from Administration under Murray, same as we were under Whyte. The bank knew this and forced the sale to make sure that when the house of cards toppled, they weren't left holding the baby. They wanted their money back. They didn't care how they got it back and had every reason to be sceptical about our chances of repaying it, as evidenced by the fact we went bust a few months later. Lloyd's role in this was wanting their money back. If you borrow from the bank, it's on their terms.
Kaunas was in 2009, you mean Malmo and Maribor 2011 which lead to the lack of funds previous to the administration?
 
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