I don’t think anyone should put a penny in until this is cleared up by the 3 (4) who are in charge of C1872.
The letter from Rev Stuart MacQuarrie which prompted me to stand for Club 1872
- Thread starter mdingwall
- Start date
Baloo72
Well-Known Member
Held off commenting after reading the full OP last night.
I've backed them but that is beyond the pale and genuinely disturbing.
What on earth was the motive behind contacting Castor? I still don't get it.
As for what could only be described as a power grab, I've got my doubts that is legal.
However for those thinking of pulling out please think again.
If it comes to it the membership are not powerless here.
Complaints the Regulator may consider pursuing under formal investigation powers
Circumstances might include:
• Fraud or other criminality.
• Serious mismanagement putting significant assets, or funds, at risk.
• A pattern of conduct involving deliberately misleading or deceiving customers or
creditors.
• Serious breach of directors’ duties to the company or its creditors
I've backed them but that is beyond the pale and genuinely disturbing.
What on earth was the motive behind contacting Castor? I still don't get it.
As for what could only be described as a power grab, I've got my doubts that is legal.
However for those thinking of pulling out please think again.
If it comes to it the membership are not powerless here.
Complaints the Regulator may consider pursuing under formal investigation powers
Circumstances might include:
• Fraud or other criminality.
• Serious mismanagement putting significant assets, or funds, at risk.
• A pattern of conduct involving deliberately misleading or deceiving customers or
creditors.
• Serious breach of directors’ duties to the company or its creditors
scratcher_77
Well-Known Member
Seen similar myself. I can somewhat understand where they are coming from as they probably want what they see as the best for the organisation. However when they get in over their heads and their only form of argument is to start making things personal, their position becomes untenable.
borderbluenose
Well-Known Member
There should be at least 2 members not based in Scotland I retire next month but not based in Scotland only go there for Rangers games but could devote time energy as you and many others could with no real ambition for the delights of the boardroom hospitality but to protect the good Rangers supporters. Using zoom teams skype would allow attendance at meetings. Structure of c1872 requires overhaul completely. Residence in Glasgow/ Scotland should not be an essential requirement. It should be what can I do for the club not what can the club do for me
Robert Marshall
Well-Known Member
Unless they resign within a few weeks this is the road I am sure someone will go down and request a forensic report on the running of the CIC
Robert Marshall
Well-Known Member
I said this earlier about being abroad should not deter people from helping Club1872 but they must have a skill set or experience as well as being a fan
iaatpies
Well-Known Member
Fans groups are in a difficult position in Scotland. The idea of fans placing their trust in elected representatives is an alien notion. Football has been a professional undertaking from it's earliest days and there has always been a them and us culture between fans and club owners/boards. It's probably worse amongst the Rangers support given it's predominant political outlook. The idea of a fans trade union doesnt tend to play well with a support that dislikes the idea of unions, collective bargaining and collective action.
That doesnt mean that supporters trusts can't work in Scotland. We've seen examples where they do and where that relationship benefits the club and gives the support a meaningful voice within a club. I've been involved in a supporters trust. I've had responsibility for activities on matchday. I've been part of a smaller group having meetings with club owners. All of those things only worked because fans trusted me and my fellow trust board members to do our jobs representing them and the owners/club board trusted us to maintain confidentiality where necessary and to act professionally at all times.
From that letter Mark posted? It looks like the C1872 board fell short of the standards necessary. The board needs to act within the limits of it's agreed terms of reference and constitution. If the board are permitted to do something then members need to trust them to do it. Those involved also need to recognise the boundaries and to remain within them. For a C1872 board member to unilaterally pursue a course of action that was outside of their role in C1872, was done without the agreement, or even the knowledge, of fellow board members and that had the potential to damage both the organisation and the club to some extent is simply unacceptable. It creates unnecessary division within C1872, damages the relationship between C1872 and the club and destroys any confidence that C1872 members can have in those at the head of their organisation. It undermines the idea of supporters groups being a constructive part of the future of football.
Root and branch reform of C1872 is needed. As a firm believer in supporters representation and collective action, I'd want to see C1872 be a really important part of the football club going forward. Players, managers and even owners come and go but fans remain throughout and as we've seen with the ESL backlash from fans of the English sides involved, sometimes fans need to be able to protect their interests. The German model of 50%+1 may never happen in the UK but fans interests should be protected to a far greater degree. The kind of underhand activity outlined in the letter GMS posted only serves to undermine that. Mark standing for election isnt going to change things overnight but given his experience over the years, his involvement would certainly benefit C1872.
But the group itself needs far more. It needs a complete root and branch reform if it's to avoid the same fate as every other Rangers fan's group since the RST was first formed around 20 years ago. Going forward C1872 could do far worse than engage with it's equivalent in Hamburg to learn what makes German fans groups successful and what the organisation needs to do if it's to have any kind of a future.
That doesnt mean that supporters trusts can't work in Scotland. We've seen examples where they do and where that relationship benefits the club and gives the support a meaningful voice within a club. I've been involved in a supporters trust. I've had responsibility for activities on matchday. I've been part of a smaller group having meetings with club owners. All of those things only worked because fans trusted me and my fellow trust board members to do our jobs representing them and the owners/club board trusted us to maintain confidentiality where necessary and to act professionally at all times.
From that letter Mark posted? It looks like the C1872 board fell short of the standards necessary. The board needs to act within the limits of it's agreed terms of reference and constitution. If the board are permitted to do something then members need to trust them to do it. Those involved also need to recognise the boundaries and to remain within them. For a C1872 board member to unilaterally pursue a course of action that was outside of their role in C1872, was done without the agreement, or even the knowledge, of fellow board members and that had the potential to damage both the organisation and the club to some extent is simply unacceptable. It creates unnecessary division within C1872, damages the relationship between C1872 and the club and destroys any confidence that C1872 members can have in those at the head of their organisation. It undermines the idea of supporters groups being a constructive part of the future of football.
Root and branch reform of C1872 is needed. As a firm believer in supporters representation and collective action, I'd want to see C1872 be a really important part of the football club going forward. Players, managers and even owners come and go but fans remain throughout and as we've seen with the ESL backlash from fans of the English sides involved, sometimes fans need to be able to protect their interests. The German model of 50%+1 may never happen in the UK but fans interests should be protected to a far greater degree. The kind of underhand activity outlined in the letter GMS posted only serves to undermine that. Mark standing for election isnt going to change things overnight but given his experience over the years, his involvement would certainly benefit C1872.
But the group itself needs far more. It needs a complete root and branch reform if it's to avoid the same fate as every other Rangers fan's group since the RST was first formed around 20 years ago. Going forward C1872 could do far worse than engage with it's equivalent in Hamburg to learn what makes German fans groups successful and what the organisation needs to do if it's to have any kind of a future.
I agree, I previously contacted them to suggest there should be a way for members who can’t always travel to take part in or at least hear and see meetings. I didn’t receive a response.
I an also recently retired after a career in corporate governance, risk and audit in the city including advising boards on good practice. I would be happy to get involved advising/helping Club 1872 and have no desire to become a board member etc.
Robert Marshall
Well-Known Member
Could all the people who would like to help Club 1872 to succeed please drop me a PM and we can see what we can do to get this back to a proper one member one vote organisation would like to know what professional people would like to get involved, in confidence of course
SE5
Well-Known Member
This has been bugging me as I remember looking it to it at the time to make sure it wasn't just going to be the same people in jobs for life. I've just looked through old emails and stuff but can't see any vote to suggest this has changed.
Found an old copy of the constitution online and it says
I'm guessing they have voted through a change to not have to have a re-election every year, did the thing about no director being permitted to be affirmed as a director on more than one occasion change as well as I think some of the board have been in place since 2016?
Has anyone got an up to date copy of the constitution?
mully10
Well-Known Member
I mentioned this earlier.
The club 1872 membership is passive and don't get involved, they are happy for others to do it and rubber stamp whatever is issued from centre. I'm not being disrespectful, it's a genuine fact.
So it will be very very difficult to make any changes with the way the organisation is setup.
SE5
Well-Known Member
I can’t find any email for a vote to change that bit in bold though (about re-election). Keen to know when it changed.
Last edited:
mully10
Well-Known Member
Cannot remember exactly but I remember it being talked about when I was there which is nearly 3 years ago.
Rest assured that operationally and governance wise they will not have done anything out with the confines of the governing document.
Also would like to point out that the CIC regulator will rarely get involved unless there is rampant borderline criminality, and that will not be the case here.
Robert Marshall
Well-Known Member
We will just need to get it changed back
SE5
Well-Known Member
Fair Enough - so it was setup to make sure this type of thing couldn’t happen, and a change was voted through at somepoint.
When was the change roughly?
edit - just saw you already said you couldn’t remember.
TheIbroxonian
Well-Known Member
Mark
Who may decide whether or not you can apply for a place on the board?? What grounds?
Robert Marshall
Well-Known Member
Doesn't need to be criminality, there are other reasons and one IMO is a stick on
MCMLXXXI
Well-Known Member
That certainly needs to happen sooner rather than later by the looks of it.
MCMLXXXI
Well-Known Member
I was a life member of the RST so same applies to me but fortunately I decided not to make further contributions as I simply couldn't afford it.
Hillheadbear
Goooooooooaaaaaaaaaaallllllllll
Same here. I had 5,300 shares in the old company which are now worthless. I participated through the RST in the Green capital raise. I have not participated subsequently
Northampton_Loyalist
Well-Known Member
PM sent.
Cromwell
Well-Known Member
That is a shocking read. So instead of acting in the best interests of Rangers and their fans, these arseholes seem intent on damaging Rangers and couldn’t care less about the fans.
Who the hell are they to think they had the right to contact any potential commercial partner and why did they feel that they were in a position to do so?
As far as I’m concerned, they are Trojan horses, they are toxic and do not have the best interests of Rangers or us fans as their priority.
They are acting like Ashley and his cohorts. Get these people to %^*& away from our club.
Who the hell are they to think they had the right to contact any potential commercial partner and why did they feel that they were in a position to do so?
As far as I’m concerned, they are Trojan horses, they are toxic and do not have the best interests of Rangers or us fans as their priority.
They are acting like Ashley and his cohorts. Get these people to %^*& away from our club.
Grant K
Well-Known Member
Your first sentence is missing a word, as ‘for’ should sit between safe and now!. Who will be the shareholders a decade from now, who knows!
Club 1872 have and are about to go through elections. A cynic might wonder at the timing of the release of Stuart McQuarrie’s letter although the content is particularly worrying.
For me there needs to be a Club1872 both as a significant fan shareholder and potentially as an attack dog where the club are unable to speak/take action. The difficulty is getting the right people who will drive the project forward.
Northampton_Loyalist
Well-Known Member
We have fan ownership now. C1872 is not aiming to own the club, it is aiming to safeguard the club. That is not something that will 'work' or not, it is a simple aim that requires a simple thing to happen. It is the governance of C1872 itself, not in relation to the club, that is causing an issue today.
The RST was in a position of 90% of shares belonged to one person. We did try to warn people that he was leading us down a dangerous path financially but most people didn’t want to hear this message. We did, however, stop the sale and leaseback of Ibrox, constantly defended the fans. We raised £250k in one week just prior to the IPO And supported a lot of charity work.
Blu_ultra
Well-Known Member
I believe in the concepts/ideals. Absolutely. In every incarnation, the infighting, public spats and governance have been embarrassing.
TheMandalorian
Well-Known Member
Chris Graham is a tadger who should have blacklisted when he went on national TV to talk about Rangers wearing a shirt and tie with his top button undone.
Alan_Morton
Well-Known Member
Glad I stopped payments to this org a long, long time ago.
Are H&H still on good terms with Club 1872? I'm sure David has interviewed Laura quite a few times in the past. Would be interesting to know if they have broken off comms with them too.
borderbluenose
Well-Known Member
In the long term it would be a good vehicle for fan participation but organisation has to be correct. Large board fixed terms and regular communication. Alternative is buying club products which leaves the club vulnerable to another tycoon who sees pound signs. We might not be as lucky in the future to have Jardine Brown McCoist and many others to protect us when it hits the fan. We have many enemies for many different reasons. We need to protect our club
Not that I know of - we’ve always been happy to get C1872 on and offer is open and regular!
Well, they're poodles with a very big bite. This is not acceptable, and for the love of me, I don't understand the arrogance displayed by these people, towards Stuart and indirectly to the members.
Methlickblue
Well-Known Member
Are we aware if the directors of Club 1872 have responded in any way to the information release or it’s implications with respect to their governance?
thebluenosebear
Well-Known Member
Thats where I am. Read the whole thing a couple of times.
Not regarding 1872 this is not the first time we've seen things like this.
Maybe I'm being niave but surely it's as simple as you: do not do dick unless it's approved by the members; you certainly don't act off your own back.
mdingwall
Administrator
The current directors and the independent adjudicator.
RFC_Champions
I Make Stuff Up
I’ve no idea who Alan Fraser is mate. Plus I’m not talking about any individual.
SE5
Well-Known Member
Think I found it (same email as I referenced above)
Does anyone have a copy of the "Election Schedule"?
mdingwall
Administrator
None of The Three are up for election.
Blutoe
Well-Known Member
Alan is the director who resigned prior to Stewart, both of whom you suggested were ‘not up to it’
RFC_Champions
I Make Stuff Up
So, with the new “ways of working” nothing’s going to change. Adding new board members is nothing more than a box ticking exercise.
SE5
Well-Known Member
Not what I expected. I’ll drop them an email asking for a copy of the constitution (unless someone can find it online?)This is from the Rules posted on the Companies House website.
