The Return Of 2 Wingers

Albertz_Was_King

Well-Known Member
The basic principles of attacking in football are based on width and depth.

Wingers occupy the wide spaces to create gaps and openings between the opposing defence. You don’t want the opposition defence becoming compact so you stretch it by playing wingers high and wide. Thus making it easier to attack and score.

Far from me to question Gerrard and Beale, but unless you replace the wingers width then you have to find an alternative. This is fine when your full backs have the energy of demons and play the majority of the game high and wide but that simple can’t happen. So your left with the issue of nobody occupying that wide area constantly.

As such we lost so much attacking threat playing with two number tens. It was a bizarre tactical move.

Gerrard’s team were crossing merchants. Full backs asked from deep to fling cross after cross into the box whilst the two numbers ten’s essentially twiddled their thumbs outside the box.

I really do hope Gio brings the 2 wingers back to life. Kent and Fashion have pace to burn, essential in the modern game and would be ideal. I really hope we see this moving forward.
 

Japandroid

Well-Known Member
Confirmed by Michael Beale that we played with two 10's (original tweet appears to be deleted).

I’ll answer this as I’m continuously copied in. We have played with two 10s in every game this season. There free, like no10s in any system to overload certain areas. Systems are not as important as the players within them. We lost, didn’t perform & it hurts, we move on ASAP

— Michael Beale (@MichaelBeale) January 28, 2020

 

OzzyGersman

Well-Known Member
We have been screaming for proper wingers for a while. The “two number 10s” worked well for us in particular games but we have players who are bonafide wingers in Kent, Sakala and Wright. I’d like to see a classic left footed winger brought in in January for balance. I feel that if GVB utilises a traditional 4-3-3 we’ll see Morelos smashing them in again.

Would like to see one of the midfield three having an advanced classic number 10 role too (*cough* Hagi *cough*)…

Again would suit the line striker in Morelos or Roofe down to the ground.
 

monkey magic

Well-Known Member
We have been screaming for proper wingers for a while. The “two number 10s” worked well for us in particular games but we have players who are bonafide wingers in Kent, Sakala and Wright. I’d like to see a classic left footed winger brought in in January for balance. I feel that if GVB utilises a traditional 4-3-3 we’ll see Morelos smashing them in again.

Would like to see one of the midfield three having an advanced classic number 10 role too (*cough* Hagi *cough*)…

Again would suit the line striker in Morelos or Roofe down to the ground.

Then also bring back Cedric Itten.
 

Arkanoid

Well-Known Member
An out and out winger getting to the bye line would be lovely, wingers cutting in and making the pitch narrow is a recipe for fail. It’s either the perfect goal or the attack fizzles out because it’s so easy to low block against us at the moment
 

Lovenkrands Dug

Well-Known Member
I'm not expecting us to use traditional wingers that only hit the byline and cross it, just expecting them to be more unpredictable, quick and attack spaces a bit better.

He didn't use them at Feyenoord either, Elia was a right footed LW and Berghuis is a left footed RW, so it's not as if they never cut in, they got plenty of goals doing just that.
 

BillStruthsGreenhouse

Well-Known Member
Gerrard and Beale can call it what they want, but I have not seen two No10’s playing for us. Stiff Inside Right and stiff Inside Left maybe?

I don’t think you can have two No10’s. What’s next two No9’s. Two goalies.

I hope they didn’t write that down and leave it in the playbook. Gio and his fellow countrymen will be pissing themselves.
 

steve1873

Well-Known Member
Yes please, 2 out and out wingers who can offer a goal threat at back post when ball is not on their side, a striker who plays only in the width of the 6 yard box and an attacking midfielder who gets in the box as a 2nd striker!!!
 

erskine bear

Well-Known Member
Official Ticketer
Gerrard and Beale can call it what they want, but I have not seen two No10’s playing for us. Stiff Inside Right and stiff Inside Left maybe?

I don’t think you can have two No10’s. What’s next two No9’s. Two goalies.

I hope they didn’t write that down and leave it in the playbook. Gio and his fellow countrymen will be pissing themselves.
Of course you can have two number 9s.

We ended last season playing with two 9s and only one 10.
 

BillStruthsGreenhouse

Well-Known Member
Your quite frankly embarrassing yourself here n clearly know s.f.a about the way we have played for the past 3 years. The players may not be traditional 10's but they were played as narrow/inside 10's.
I am not embarrassed but saddened about the disrespect we show each other on here at times as keyboard warriors. I think you will find what you have just said above prior to telling me how I must be feeling is what I have already said.
 

L&D RSC

Well-Known Member
The basic principles of attacking in football are based on width and depth.

Wingers occupy the wide spaces to create gaps and openings between the opposing defence. You don’t want the opposition defence becoming compact so you stretch it by playing wingers high and wide. Thus making it easier to attack and score.

Far from me to question Gerrard and Beale, but unless you replace the wingers width then you have to find an alternative. This is fine when your full backs have the energy of demons and play the majority of the game high and wide but that simple can’t happen. So your left with the issue of nobody occupying that wide area constantly.

As such we lost so much attacking threat playing with two number tens. It was a bizarre tactical move.

Gerrard’s team were crossing merchants. Full backs asked from deep to fling cross after cross into the box whilst the two numbers ten’s essentially twiddled their thumbs outside the box.

I really do hope Gio brings the 2 wingers back to life. Kent and Fashion have pace to burn, essential in the modern game and would be ideal. I really hope we see this moving forward.

To go with this type of formation, you are asking the wing backs to stay further back than normal, so to get the extra attacking players, you need to have midfielders who will drive into the box to help the striker when the wingers are providing ammunition.

Because of the way we played and set up under SG (very Klopp like) then we don't have those type of players in our squad currently, with the exception of Arfield, but time is not on his side.

Someone like Bacuna may be able to provide this, or Aribo, but we certainly haven't seen that side of their game purely as they have been asked to play different midfield types of roles.

So until Gio gets his own players in, or adapts current players, then I do not see a lot changing in regards to how we set up.
 

Michael Mols

Well-Known Member
Or because we were firing weapons of crosses into the box at one point for months and no one was on the end of them.

Yeah that was definitely a problem. Candeias and Tav would be swinging crosses in and Morelos would be the only player in the box. We started playing with two tens to get more people into the penalty box.
 

Lovenkrands Dug

Well-Known Member
To go with this type of formation, you are asking the wing backs to stay further back than normal, so to get the extra attacking players, you need to have midfielders who will drive into the box to help the striker when the wingers are providing ammunition.

Because of the way we played and set up under SG (very Klopp like) then we don't have those type of players in our squad currently, with the exception of Arfield, but time is not on his side.

Someone like Bacuna may be able to provide this, or Aribo, but we certainly haven't seen that side of their game purely as they have been asked to play different midfield types of roles.

So until Gio gets his own players in, or adapts current players, then I do not see a lot changing in regards to how we set up.
The one thing I am hoping to see from Gio is a more versatile midfield. The only benefit the current set up brings is it sort of provides support for the full backs, but I don't think it's a defensively solid midfield by any stretch, nor is it particularly creative either so it's essentially offering nothing in terms of game impact.

I know you've said we don't have the players really to change it, but we are as well doing it because the current midfield doesn't work anyway. Bacuna, Aribo, Arfield and Hagi could all do that role of some sorts, I even think Kamara could be deployed more like his Finland role and impact the attack a bit more.
 

L&D RSC

Well-Known Member
The one thing I am hoping to see from Gio is a more versatile midfield. The only benefit the current set up brings is it sort of provides support for the full backs, but I don't think it's a defensively solid midfield by any stretch, nor is it particularly creative either so it's essentially offering nothing in terms of game impact.

I know you've said we don't have the players really to change it, but we are as well doing it because the current midfield doesn't work anyway. Bacuna, Aribo, Arfield and Hagi could all do that role of some sorts, I even think Kamara could be deployed more like his Finland role and impact the attack a bit more.

As I said mate, it's not that we don't have the players (as you have said) it's more to do with the fact they have been drilled into the more defensive shape over the past 3 years, so it won't be a quick fix for Gio to alter their mindsets as quickly as some of us would hope.

He may prove me wrong though, and hope he does because the set up we have used has been very successful for us in Europe thankfully, but I honestly believe that an altogether more attack minded set up would work against the dross in our league.

Think SG over thought tactics a wee bit at times against the Livis and Killies of this world, where sending out 11 better players than they have and letting them loose on them (for want of a better term) would work most of the time imo.
 

MightyGersLand!

Well-Known Member
We have been screaming for proper wingers for a while. The “two number 10s” worked well for us in particular games but we have players who are bonafide wingers in Kent, Sakala and Wright. I’d like to see a classic left footed winger brought in in January for balance. I feel that if GVB utilises a traditional 4-3-3 we’ll see Morelos smashing them in again.

Would like to see one of the midfield three having an advanced classic number 10 role too (*cough* Hagi *cough*)…

Again would suit the line striker in Morelos or Roofe down to the ground.
Back 5.
Davis.....kamara
..... ....Hagi.....
Sakala..... Kent
....... Morelos....
 

MightyGersLand!

Well-Known Member
As I said mate, it's not that we don't have the players (as you have said) it's more to do with the fact they have been drilled into the more defensive shape over the past 3 years, so it won't be a quick fix for Gio to alter their mindsets as quickly as some of us would hope.

He may prove me wrong though, and hope he does because the set up we have used has been very successful for us in Europe thankfully, but I honestly believe that an altogether more attack minded set up would work against the dross in our league.

Think SG over thought tactics a wee bit at times against the Livis and Killies of this world, where sending out 11 better players than they have and letting them loose on them (for want of a better term) would work most of the time imo.
Give Tav and Borna dead ball like situations and a target in the box and we'll score goals.
That includes a ball out wide and a clear 2 or 3 seconds to set the ball, pause, look up and cross.
Teams have figured that out.
It'll work again in the future, but at some point in time, you need other options and tactics.
 

MearnsUnionist

Well-Known Member
The basic principles of attacking in football are based on width and depth.

Wingers occupy the wide spaces to create gaps and openings between the opposing defence. You don’t want the opposition defence becoming compact so you stretch it by playing wingers high and wide. Thus making it easier to attack and score.

Far from me to question Gerrard and Beale, but unless you replace the wingers width then you have to find an alternative. This is fine when your full backs have the energy of demons and play the majority of the game high and wide but that simple can’t happen. So your left with the issue of nobody occupying that wide area constantly.

As such we lost so much attacking threat playing with two number tens. It was a bizarre tactical move.

Gerrard’s team were crossing merchants. Full backs asked from deep to fling cross after cross into the box whilst the two numbers ten’s essentially twiddled their thumbs outside the box.

I really do hope Gio brings the 2 wingers back to life. Kent and Fashion have pace to burn, essential in the modern game and would be ideal. I really hope we see this moving forward.


I don't see Sakala as an out and out winger mate and I don't think he does either tbh.

There's also the problem of our right back having the most assists in the league, including double (yes double) that of the much lauded Jota.
I do however think Bassey is supplying far more energy and attacking threat than Borna down the left, at the moment.

Don't forget we also scored 10 goals in our last 2 league games, including 6 against the side that destroyed Hearts at the weekend.

I think we will see changes within the 4-3-3 formation, but not necessarily 2 out and out wingers.
 
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final_straws

Well-Known Member
It will remain to be seen but I don't think 2 wingers will work.

In the Spl, teams will park the bus & flood the central areas so all 2 wingers does is see you chuck crosses in to 1 isolated striker.

This is exactly the reason, we changed to having 2 no.10s with width from the full backs.

I'd also add that the front 3 should consist of 2 strikers so that's 2 of Morelos, Roofe & Sakala. Imo that is key to scoring against teams playing a low block
 

Leo_Ger

Well-Known Member
Two wingers wasn’t required when we were getting good attacking quality from the wing backs.

Plenty of top teams haven’t played with our and out wingers for about a decade at least.


Yeah, football tactics aren't monolithic. It's a pretty basic football principle that players don't occupy the same passing lines/lanes. So if your fullbacks are wide then the 'wide players' tuck in, if your wingers are wide, the fullbacks tuck in or attacking midfielders push into the 10s positions.

Liverpool predominantly get their width without wingers. Chelsea use wingbacks to do it. There'll be countless other examples.

At Feyenoord in their league winning season under Gio, Berghuis would tuck in from the right hand side into a 10 space and Karsdrop would get high and wide when they were attacking.

The OP is miles away from understanding football tactics of width and depth.
 

Blu_ultra

Well-Known Member
I hope this doesn’t happen. The space vacated by our wingers is pretty much our biggest threat. We don’t have any attacking midfielders other than Arfield. Also, nobody plays 2 wingers in modern football, because it doesn’t work. Old fashioned/ineffective idea.
 

DRAGO

Well-Known Member
Pointless having 2 out and out wingers when the majority of the time we have one player in the box against 3 or 4 defenders.

Actually it is pretty pointless full stop when you only have 1 attacker against 4 defenders.
 

Vinted

Well-Known Member
So you want to go back to a Barrie Mckay type winger that got a nosebleed if he couldn't see the touchline. Players should be fluid and flexible and not stuck out on an Island.
 

ForGodForCountryForever

Well-Known Member
Watch the goals and chances created from last couple nights, any European fixture night really, you see the potency of speed in the forward areas and the chaos it can cause.

Rangers dont utilise it enough and even if we dont have wingers in the touchline hugging classic sense, we do have attacking mids and forwards who can play wide and are very fast.

More speed means quicker and attacks and more for the opposition to think about and deal with. Less time for them to settle and kill momentum.

The ultimately quality of speed in attack of course it can be used in an instant and produce something from nothing. Essential tool to possess in modern football really.
 

SWBlue1872

Active Member
Aye all you need is wingers and they compact, organised and packed defences are just going to abandon their tactics and start sending men out to mark the wingers.

In reality the reason teams (especially top teams expected to dominate the ball) largely abandoned traditional wingers is smaller teams are happy to concede the wide areas and pack the box. Width isn't our issue, we're getting wide plenty, the fact we're putting crosses into boxes packed with 10 men, half over 6ft who can easily deal with it is.

Our biggest problem this season is the intensity of the press has dropped and our transitions are so slow that every team we play has plenty of time to reset and organise. We really need that zip we had in changing defence to attack back.

Anyone expecting us to line up with 2 guys trying to get to the line to cross is in for more years of frustration
 

Leopold

Well-Known Member
Official Ticketer
Gerrard and Beale can call it what they want, but I have not seen two No10’s playing for us. Stiff Inside Right and stiff Inside Left maybe?

I don’t think you can have two No10’s. What’s next two No9’s. Two goalies.

I hope they didn’t write that down and leave it in the playbook. Gio and his fellow countrymen will be pissing themselves.
Maybe Gerrard and Beale used the term two No. 10s because Inside Right and Inside Left are positions used in formations with 5 forwards from before they were born?
 

Barrymoped

Well-Known Member
My point is depends what and who you call the No.10’s?

We have been a solid fixed and predictable 4 - 3 - 3 for the last 3 years.
It might be predictable but it also works.

It’s the formation that won us the league and has us sitting top of the league this season.

Scoring goals isn’t our main problem, keeping them out at the other end is. The difference in our defence this year is staggering. We won loads of games 1-0 last year. This year I can’t remember the last time we even had a clean sheet.
 

cranky

Well-Known Member
Whether it’s 2x 10’s, 2 overlapping fullbacks, 2 out and out wingers, 1 x 10 & 2 x9……the thing we need is unpredictability in our play. We have become too predictable & too pedestrian in our attacking play. We have a striker who is quite frankly overweight, lazy and posting his performances in. Our lead up play is too slow, too easy to defend in numbers against and we resort to full backs crossing from deep.

Gio will undoubtedly vary it depending on the opposition but what ultimately needs to change is the intensity which we play at. Wasn’t all perfect last season but we had intensity in our play, stole ball high up etc and the opposition couldn’t get it back once we had it. We have lost that this season. Cannot create chances, cannot retain possession as well as we could last year and are now susceptible to counter attacks.

One thing I want Gio to instill straight away is playing with intensity. That’s the missing ingredient for me
 

Tommy48

Well-Known Member
The one positive I can see is that at least we wont be caught out with long balls to our wings. On Sunday Hibs for first 20 minutes played 2 wide men and when they received the ball usually with no defender near them their midfield then bombed forward. And this is just not Hibs doing this.
 
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