The Return Of 2 Wingers

Wade Wilson

Well-Known Member
Might be nice to see Kent play more of a winger role and be isolated one on one with a RB. Doesn't have to be all the time, but be good to see some old fashioned wing play.

I think Kent really has the potential to go even further under Gio
 

Buzzbear

Well-Known Member
Official Ticketer
I really do hope Gio brings the 2 wingers back to life. Kent and Fashion have pace to burn, essential in the modern game and would be ideal. I really hope we see this moving forward.
Agreed too many times we have prioritised possession over attacking play. We have been pedestrian in going forward allowing them to get back into formation. Fashion, kent, wright & Bocco inject that pace. I would like to see more game time for them
 

Alex Venters

Well-Known Member
Michael Beale and Gerrard said we play with two tens, the narrow tens allow Tav/Borna the space on the flanks rather than congesting the area.
Both Tav and Borna fail to get into the last third enough these days. Last year, Borna in particular was always overlapping and getting into the crossing zone. This year his crosses tend to be from 30yds out. Tav is much the same.

A big part of why we're struggling in attack.

That said, players rather than systems win or lose games. Any system is only as good as the players within that system.
 

frazz

Well-Known Member
Give Tav and Borna dead ball like situations and a target in the box and we'll score goals.
That includes a ball out wide and a clear 2 or 3 seconds to set the ball, pause, look up and cross.
Teams have figured that out.
It'll work again in the future, but at some point in time, you need other options and tactics.
This in spades we became to predictable even our out ball from keeper is 90% gk, goldson tav .. ..... means opposition shuffle just enough to be closer to tav but cover both then press as soon as released at , gk, tav, goldson and the right side midfielder.

It then leaves Alfie as a long option but balls hit at him rapid and they have two on him ... ...plus his touch is gone just now. So lose possession and under pressure.

Kent coming back to collect ball from our own box is prob example of being to strict to a system against hibs.

They had pushed to half way line he should be there with ball over top from mcgregor and make them turn and chase into their own half.
 

Burgh-Ger

Well-Known Member
Last season both Borna and Tav played with a huge amount of energy and were a massive attacking threat.

Tav has been a bit stop start this season and does not look to have the same energy levels.

Borna, well he looks broken.

It’s hard to know the cause for both, is it a mixture of physical and mental issues?
 

Burgh-Ger

Well-Known Member
Both Tav and Borna fail to get into the last third enough these days. Last year, Borna in particular was always overlapping and getting into the crossing zone. This year his crosses tend to be from 30yds out. Tav is much the same.

A big part of why we're struggling in attack.

That said, players rather than systems win or lose games. Any system is only as good as the players within that system.

Thats my point, Tav is starting to get in to bettr positions but Borna is miles off it.

What do you think the cause is?
 

Holytown_loyal

Active Member
At no time did we play with 2 number 10s we played with two holding midfielders to allow tav and borna to get forward more often last season but not 2 number 10s
 

Thornliebank_Bear

Well-Known Member
Its 2 strikers in the middle we need thats where most of our problems come from. We set up as if its the CL when its only spfl sides with free transfers on low wages.

We play with 1 man up front thats it 1 guy in the box against spfl rubbish. Embarrassing, i have no idea why Alfie takes so much of the blame a different option wont change much.

You could play with 2 wide men against smaller clubs but sometimes the middle of the park is vital in Scotland and can be a real scrap.

I dont really see the point in the whole epl, psg, bayern do this argument, its nonsense, we are long way from peps man city and the 100m or whatever it is he spends every time he wants a new superstar to play with or the best player from one of the other clubs....and we will continue to be with our style of play which is so easy to play against even to a coach like jack ross.
 

erskine bear

Well-Known Member
Official Ticketer
At no time did we play with 2 number 10s we played with two holding midfielders to allow tav and borna to get forward more often last season but not 2 number 10s
The idea of Kamara/Jack is to cover the space the full backs are leaving, when they move into the space generally left by the 10s being narrow.

Similarly, it’s why you’ll see us often forming a back three with Davis/Lundstram dropping into the centre of defence so the two centre backs move wider to occupy the space left by the full backs.

Both the 10s and the midfielders are required for it to work, particularly in Europe.
 

Rule Britannia

Well-Known Member
Official Ticketer
Are Borna & Tav (when on their game) not wingers? Show me a winger anyhwere in world football with better numbers than Tav.

Its not about systems or what you class as a winger or a 10. Under Gerrard we had a very fluid formation that changed in and out of possession. We were rampant last season, nobody could touch us, and now suddenly that systems shite? Aye no bother.

The problem is attitude. If players like Tav & Bornas numbers drop off a cliff thats not the "systems" fault, thats on them. We won the league title, a lot of players fancied a big move that never materialised, the hunger for Scottish fitba was lost. This team has finished its cycle.

Standing at a different spot on the pitch wont change that. The players either get a fresh buzz from Gio, or we get them out amd move on. Footballs a cyclic game. We hit the peak with 55, too many are going through the motions now.
 

the_ref

Well-Known Member
Official Ticketer
playing 2 wingers (if we had 2 wingers in the squad) getting wide and launching the ball to a single man in the middle who is up against probably 4 big lumps of defenders, especially when that single man is the currently immobile Morelos, is not what I think will win us the league.
 

Rule Britannia

Well-Known Member
Official Ticketer
My point is depends what and who you call the No.10’s?

We have been a solid fixed and predictable 4 - 3 - 3 for the last 3 years.
I dont know what team you've been watching but we've been far from "fixed" or "predictable". We probably played the most fluid system that we ever have under Gerrard. Nothing about the "433" was fixed. It changed in and out of possession and from game to game depending on personnel.
 

BlueNoseBlueblood

Well-Known Member
playing 2 wingers (if we had 2 wingers in the squad) getting wide and launching the ball to a single man in the middle who is up against probably 4 big lumps of defenders, especially when that single man is the currently immobile Morelos, is not what I think will win us the league.
I can understand the premise of your argument, but it falls down
when two of those defenders will be nowhere near the centre
they will be "on" both wingers, so it's 2v1 in the box (until our
attacking midfielder gets there).
 

BlueNoseBlueblood

Well-Known Member
Are Borna & Tav (when on their game) not wingers? Show me a winger anyhwere in world football with better numbers than Tav.

Its not about systems or what you class as a winger or a 10. Under Gerrard we had a very fluid formation that changed in and out of possession. We were rampant last season, nobody could touch us, and now suddenly that systems shite? Aye no bother.

The problem is attitude. If players like Tav & Bornas numbers drop off a cliff thats not the "systems" fault, thats on them. We won the league title, a lot of players fancied a big move that never materialised, the hunger for Scottish fitba was lost. This team has finished its cycle.

Standing at a different spot on the pitch wont change that. The players either get a fresh buzz from Gio, or we get them out amd move on. Footballs a cyclic game. We hit the peak with 55, too many are going through the motions now.
good post mate

(and for me, there's the after-effects of micro-management to consider)
 

Tony75tfc

Well-Known Member
We dont have enough players in the box at times imo for me the midfielders should be getting into the box supporting the striker anytime the full backs or wingers are looking to cross in , at times we only have 1 player in the box with davis & kamara too deep , if tav is crossing from the right i expect borna to be coming in at back post from the left but most of time hes nowhere to be seen , same from the other side , how many goals did tav get last season coming into the back post but he just doesnt seem to be doing that this season , we need more bodies in the box
 

Coisty87

Well-Known Member
Official Ticketer
I'd be intrigued to see a 4231 with Tav as the RW and Patterson in at RB, Hagi or Aribo as the 10.

Tav is as close to a right winger we have with his numbers, also gets both in same team. Patterson enjoys the 1-2 on edge of box and getting shot away, he would get that with Tav and one of the two sitting can cover

Possibly too much FM in younger days but it would definitely work better in a 4231 than in Gerrards system
 

Midfield General

Well-Known Member
The basic principles of attacking in football are based on width and depth.

Wingers occupy the wide spaces to create gaps and openings between the opposing defence. You don’t want the opposition defence becoming compact so you stretch it by playing wingers high and wide. Thus making it easier to attack and score.

Far from me to question Gerrard and Beale, but unless you replace the wingers width then you have to find an alternative. This is fine when your full backs have the energy of demons and play the majority of the game high and wide but that simple can’t happen. So your left with the issue of nobody occupying that wide area constantly.

As such we lost so much attacking threat playing with two number tens. It was a bizarre tactical move.

Gerrard’s team were crossing merchants. Full backs asked from deep to fling cross after cross into the box whilst the two numbers ten’s essentially twiddled their thumbs outside the box.

I really do hope Gio brings the 2 wingers back to life. Kent and Fashion have pace to burn, essential in the modern game and would be ideal. I really hope we see this moving forward.
We currently carry no threat from the wide areas.I have counted Borna getting to the bye line once this season and Alfie scored from the cross.Tav has generally not hit his true form apart from the odd flash so we end up passing back and forward across the front of the opposing defence.
 

two2tango

Well-Known Member
Official Ticketer
To go with this type of formation, you are asking the wing backs to stay further back than normal, so to get the extra attacking players, you need to have midfielders who will drive into the box to help the striker when the wingers are providing ammunition.

Because of the way we played and set up under SG (very Klopp like) then we don't have those type of players in our squad currently, with the exception of Arfield, but time is not on his side.

Someone like Bacuna may be able to provide this, or Aribo, but we certainly haven't seen that side of their game purely as they have been asked to play different midfield types of roles.

So until Gio gets his own players in, or adapts current players, then I do not see a lot changing in regards to how we set up.
Gio has said we will see changes tonight

Hopefully we will see high tempo one touch attacking play

Morelos dropped for sure

Maybe see this

Aribo jack kamara

Bacunua sakala kent
 

Fergie90

Well-Known Member
Alot of negative reactions in here to playing with wingers. It doesn't work or it's old fashioned etc

There are plenty of teams that use wingers and if they don't it's because the full backs are so good and attacking they basically are wingers.

Barisic in particular is mostly receiving the ball on half way line and has no pace whatsoever.

We need Kent, Sakala or Wright to give that option or play Patterson and Bassey as they have energy and can dribble.
 

TommyMcLean7

Well-Known Member
To go with this type of formation, you are asking the wing backs to stay further back than normal, so to get the extra attacking players, you need to have midfielders who will drive into the box to help the striker when the wingers are providing ammunition.

Because of the way we played and set up under SG (very Klopp like) then we don't have those type of players in our squad currently, with the exception of Arfield, but time is not on his side.

Someone like Bacuna may be able to provide this, or Aribo, but we certainly haven't seen that side of their game purely as they have been asked to play different midfield types of roles.

So until Gio gets his own players in, or adapts current players, then I do not see a lot changing in regards to how we set up.
I would argue that we do have players in the squad that could be utilized to great effect in that role. Arfield, Aribo, Hagi and possibly Bacuna.
 

spirit_of_93

Well-Known Member
The formation is fine is when it functions properly. The teams that do it well, as we did last season, play as a team and we’ve stopped doing that. Maybe the “tricks are for the circus” comment is recognition of that and it’s a matter of drilling down on the basics again.

The back 4 is all over the place and we’re a goal down before we’ve got started every week. That’s the first thing that needs dealt with tonight, their first job is to be organised and defend collectively as well as individually. Why has that gone out the window it’s the same players who did it very well last season.

The front 3 are also playing as individuals and the link up play is very poor. Tricks aplenty from Aribo, Kent, Hagi, Sakala, but how often are they finding a team mate in space in a goal scoring position. How often are team mates taking up these positions.

Too many heads turned and playing individually instead of being fully focused on their specific role in the team.
 

senefelder

Well-Known Member
Proper wingers, or two number 10's will not make a blind bit of distance if we have a traffic cone playing through the middle. We have problems in every area of the side, however the attacking problem revolves around how to improve the form of the current occupant, or failing that finding an alternative. Not easy given the current options.
 

GovanFront4

Well-Known Member
It would also leave Morelos easy to mark if we are firing crosses in to him in the box on his own. Two wingers worked when teams played 4-4-2 and they had two strikers to occupy centre halves. We don't have that either.
 

ICA_86

Well-Known Member
Proper wingers, or two number 10's will not make a blind bit of distance if we have a traffic cone playing through the middle. We have problems in every area of the side, however the attacking problem revolves around how to improve the form of the current occupant, or failing that finding an alternative. Not easy given the current options.
One of the biggest problems is the useless centre forward we have moping about up front.

More movement, more options, more goals.
 

senefelder

Well-Known Member
One of the biggest problems is the useless centre forward we have moping about up front.

More movement, more options, more goals.
Which is what I was alluding to. Our problem though is the options available ie an injury prone Roofe, and Sakala who I'm far from convinced is best suited through the middle.
 

Der Berliner

Well-Known Member
You can play any system, if you have the players and the opposition that "plays along".

Going 4-3-3 effectively reduces the attackers from 4 to 1-3. It might work if you have two roving wingbacks ... then again, no-one stops fullbacks joining in the act in a setup with 2 wingers - just remember Candeias' and Tavernier`s interplay. Which in turn would make that system having up to 6 attackers in the opposition half.

The problem we have - from MW to SG - is that opponents have sussed out our style of play and the respective players and dug in. Hence, for the most part (and unless we score once or twice early and teams open up a little) these last 3+ years, games have quickly turned to toil and low-score affairs. The reasons are no rocket science, TBH.

Kent and Aribo do their stuff, but are IMHO not "lethal" enough as a goal threat in a front line. Likewise, they like to rove about and with Morelos a) being far from his lethal self and b) also moving to the wings or deep, who is going to score? So oftentimes we have barren spaces either side of the field ... and if the wingbacks can't hit a ball past the first man ...

It was in fact pretty annoying that we persisted with that system no matter what and no matter how people ran after their own form, yet wingers sat on the bench and in the stands quickly becoming the target of the "not-good-enough"-brigade, while those on the park failed to deliver. We had and got Hastie, Middleton, Jones, Barker et al, but never used them in a system that would most likely have benfitted us against the Scottish trench diggers.

We have enough peole at the club who can play on either side as wingers, and still have one or two strikers. And as it stands now and how he plays, I wouldn`t mind actually putting Patterson wide right in a 3-5-2 or the like, as he seems to be full of enthusiasm, ability and is in-form.
 

Shota

Well-Known Member
It’s astounding that folk don’t even know the system we have been playing for the last couple of years. It’s really clear we play/played 2 no10’s with the full backs providing width.

If Gio can change it to a 4231 with 2 wingers and a no10 with the striker on the last defender it should solve a lot of problems.


Morelos dropping deep took teams by surprise last year and defenders followed him deep and it left a lot of space in behind. Teams have clicked on now that if you leave him to drop deep himself it’s pretty much useless. Get him back on the shoulder and roughing defenders up as that’s what he’s best at.
 

SmileyBear

Well-Known Member
What I can't wait to see is the crisp one touch passing and movement the dutch coaches play Advocaats football at times was the best I have ever seen.
Hope to see this with GVB.
 

ICA_86

Well-Known Member
It’s astounding that folk don’t even know the system we have been playing for the last couple of years. It’s really clear we play/played 2 no10’s with the full backs providing width.

If Gio can change it to a 4231 with 2 wingers and a no10 with the striker on the last defender it should solve a lot of problems.


Morelos dropping deep took teams by surprise last year and defenders followed him deep and it left a lot of space in behind. Teams have clicked on now that if you leave him to drop deep himself it’s pretty much useless. Get him back on the shoulder and roughing defenders up as that’s what he’s best at.
You wonder where our fullbacks stand if they’re asked to do a note traditional role that’s first and foremost stopping the opposition scoring.
 

brain

Well-Known Member
I’m not opposed to playing with wingers in principle but who do we have to play there? Kent is the only natural winger we have, unless you include Brandon Barker. Scott Wright could play there but that’s it. I can’t see us deviating from using the fullbacks for width with the players we have.
 

Odin1972

Well-Known Member
Yeah, football tactics aren't monolithic. It's a pretty basic football principle that players don't occupy the same passing lines/lanes. So if your fullbacks are wide then the 'wide players' tuck in, if your wingers are wide, the fullbacks tuck in or attacking midfielders push into the 10s positions.

Liverpool predominantly get their width without wingers. Chelsea use wingbacks to do it. There'll be countless other examples.

At Feyenoord in their league winning season under Gio, Berghuis would tuck in from the right hand side into a 10 space and Karsdrop would get high and wide when they were attacking.

The OP is miles away from understanding football tactics of width and depth.
Good post. Advocaat regularly played one out and out winger in his 4-4-1-1 and a more traditional midfielder on the other side to drop into a 3.
 

MightyGersLand!

Well-Known Member
We don’t have 2 wingers at the club to play.
Not a dig at you or the other poster.
But we've had any 2 of Kent, Hagi and Wright on the park and also Kent, Hagi and Roofe.

Yet in this post people are saying we don't ever have 2 wingers and we don't have 2 number 10s.
I for one am lost. Because they ain't 6s, 8s or 9s.
 

ICA_86

Well-Known Member
Not a dig at you or the other poster.
But we've had any 2 of Kent, Hagi and Wright on the park and also Kent, Hagi and Roofe.

Yet in this post people are saying we don't ever have 2 wingers and we don't have 2 number 10s.
I for one am lost. Because they ain't 6s, 8s or 9s.
Hagi’s not a winger. I sincerely hope we don’t persist that that Gerrard-ism.
 

PortoyMortoy

Well-Known Member
We only have two traditional wingers at the club in Kent and Wright and neither of them possess a great cross, most of our attacking options aren't suited to play a normal 4-3-3 and we have done it before and all it means is the striker is isolated in a crowded box. In Europe perhaps it's a possibility but i hope we never go back to it domestically so long as most teams tactics against us are the most negative approach possible.
 

KensingtonBlue

Well-Known Member
Nobody plays with wingers these days. Look at Liverpool and Man City. Width is from full-backs only. Attacking players all end up central. A winger hugging the touchline is a total waste.
 

Dugsy

Well-Known Member
All the talk in this thread around formations is on an ‘in possession’ basis.
Has anyone considered what we should do ‘out of possession’ as this for me has been the glaring weakness this season?

What are we actually doing when we don’t have the ball?
 
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