Wales two away games and they are surely through!

Kit_

Well-Known Member
I had belief we'd do alright as long as Patterson, Gilmour and Adams got starts.

Going by Alky's comments after the game that'll likely never happen.
 

HandsomeHead

Well-Known Member
They're a better side, no doubt about it.

Bale and Ramsey are two players above anything we have in midfield.

Have they better resources, most of their players go through the English system, so this accounts for some of it.

Scotland have been failing to produce real top drawer internationals for more than a decade.
We do have to acknowledge that we don’t have any players of the calibre of Bale, probably even Ramsey too, but even when we did produce talent of that quality we still underperformed at major championships.

For me it’s a mentality issue and until we rectify that we’re never going to do anything in finals like this.
 

HandsomeHead

Well-Known Member
Inadvertently or otherwise there seems to be a few on here trying to feebly excuse Scotland’s failings at this level with the reasoning that we don’t have any players of the calibre of Wales’ top talents.

So forget about them for a minute and instead look at Northern Ireland, population 1.8m.

At the last Euros they made it to the knockout stages. Previously back in ‘82, despite finishing behind Scotland in qualifying, they did likewise at the World Cup, while we, yet again, couldn’t.

That’s two out of three major finals they’ve qualified for in the last forty years where they’ve progressed beyond the groups, while we, in seven attempts during the same period, have failed to make it past them even once.

Northern Ireland don’t have a Gareth Bale or an Aaron Ramsey, but they do seem to have a belief in themselves and some guts to go with it.

There are no more excuses for Scotland, sadly.

We’re a nation with a serial loser mentality.
 

Taffyblue

Well-Known Member
It really shames us as a nation. We have qualified 10 times for WC & Euros and not once made it past the group stages Wales have only qualified twice & both times have progressed as have the rest of the home nations. And depressing the current dinosaur of a manager is lauded up here by the mhedia.
To compound your misery, Wales have actually done better than that.

They reached the QF of the predecessor to the Euros, the European Championships in 1976 before being controversially knocked out by Yugoslavia. Hence why we played Scotland at Anfield in the WC in 1977.

We also reached the QF of the World Cup in 1958 before losing 1-0 to Brazil whose winner was scored by a 17yo called Pele. Wonder what became of him? We were without our best player that game as well, the great John Charles
 

noborders

Active Member
Hot take, Wales produce much better players than Scotland as a result of not having a professional league structure and all the in-fighting it causes. All their players filter through the English system and those at the top end in terms of natural ability end up better off as a result.
 

Kowloon72

Well-Known Member
No but they have two genuinely class players (Ramsey, Bale) who in the final third can win games on their own.

They also actually try to go at teams, unlike us.

This is key. I don't really follow the Scottish national team, and won't spend much time defending them, but if Robertson and Tierney* were an attacking midfielder and a centre forward respectively, Scotland would be a much more dangerous side even with competent but average players in the rest of the positions.

It feels like in recent years, anytime Scotland have produced a player of real quality like Barry Ferguson, they haven't been the type to make the difference in the final 3rd.

*Not suggesting these guys are at the same level as Bale
 

KensingtonBlue

Well-Known Member
Bale is genuinely world class and so is Ramsey on his day. Our best players are defenders. We have no top talent in the forward areas.

When you are one of the lesser nations that's what makes all the difference. Turkey, for example, have better players than Wales across the back and midfield, but they didn't have anyone clinical or creative enough to make a difference.
 

Kowloon72

Well-Known Member
Hot take, Wales produce much better players than Scotland as a result of not having a professional league structure and all the in-fighting it causes. All their players filter through the English system and those at the top end in terms of natural ability end up better off as a result.

Bale did come through at Southampton having been spotted very young. Ramsey came through at Cardiff though.
 

noborders

Active Member
Bale did come through at Southampton having been spotted very young. Ramsey came through at Cardiff though.
Cardiff and Swansea for the purposes of this argument are a part of the English system.

IE. Their two most noteworthy clubs play in the English league structure and are bolstered by the money it brings.
 

Kowloon72

Well-Known Member
Cardiff and Swansea for the purposes of this argument are a part of the English system.

IE. Their two most noteworthy clubs play in the English league structure and are bolstered by the money it brings.

Hmmm. I see.

In that case, yer ma's dug has tits.
 

TheMandalorian

Harry Potter / Nature Boy
Scotland has always been ran by morons, halfwits dishing out jobs for the boys instead of people looking to shake things up. Imagine this team in 98 for example:

Goram

Brown
Hendry
Gough
D. Robertson

I.Ferguson

McCall
Collins
Lambert

McCoist
Gallacher

That team is extremely good and would have had a chance of going far in that tournament yet because of over-promoted schoolteacher pettiness, hardly any of that team were picked. It’s not even a decent thing either - 1962, 66 (we genuinely could have won both of them but we somehow didn’t even qualify), 78 and 86 were all ruined by utter incompetence from those in charge and at the top. A player like Ryan Gauld for example would be in the starting line-up for Wales and they’d build around his flaws.
 

bornabluenose

Well-Known Member
We do have to acknowledge that we don’t have any players of the calibre of Bale, probably even Ramsey too, but even when we did produce talent of that quality we still underperformed at major championships.

For me it’s a mentality issue and until we rectify that we’re never going to do anything in finals like this.
Don't misunderstand me, you are right, we have always underperformed, even when we had genuine world-class players at our disposal.

The Scotland conundrum is a complex issue and mentality may well play a large part.

Certainly, when compared to other nations of our size and even smaller, our record is abysmal.

I don't think mentality is the whole picture though, and certainly ,especially over the last 20years, the abject failure of the SFA to address the many and varied wrongs in the Scottish game ,in general, have made a large contribution to our woes as a football nation.

My citing of players like Bale and Ramsey making Wales a far better side than Scotland is true for today but, as you rightly point out, it doesn't begin to cover why we have failed so miserably as a nation over all.

It's as criminal as it is tragic.
 
Last edited:

Thornliebank_Bear

Well-Known Member
Moore is just as important to Wales as Bale or Ramsey.

He kept them in the tourney in the first game and wins the physical battle which allows the 3 behind him space to play in.

Big Josh does the same for NI he is a massive player for them.

I guess Dykes was supposed to do that job but hes not as powerful as these guys and didnt get much service anyway....i think if we did have or found a target man(Rangers or Scotland) a lot of people would be raging at the guy even being anywhere near the squad and the idea we fire in crosses or long balls. So many are totally committed to Pep and the idea we pass it 100x before shooting. If you watched Spain they were just as poor and clueless as we were.

I always think the centre forward position is the most important part of the team. Had Dykes played with a partner(Adams, Nisbet even Shankland wtf happened to him) i dont think our only openings would have come from the left wing back.

I think the way Dykes has been criticised is crazy(yes he sure is a QPR striker and not much more than that) you can be sure when its over pundits and friends of the manager will do the same and say if anyone was to blame for failure it was the Aussie guy.
 

Ross_

Well-Known Member
Official Ticketer
No, but they have a brave modern progressive management team.

That is true - however they also have 2 world class level players in the attacking 3rd - i'd argue we have one and sadly he plays at Left Back.

Clarke is a dinosaur and has never managed a team setting out to win all the time - he is good at making teams hard to beat and defensively minded - when he is expected to go out and win games he doesn't appear to know what to do.
 

Bluenose1979

Well-Known Member
Wales were brilliant last night and that was the most enjoyable match of the tournament for me so far. Hungary worked their arses off and always looked like they could take the game to them, so felt it could go either way.

When it comes to Scotland, they've always failed at that level. Throughout generations and having, relatively speaking, far better players it's always been failure after failure. It's not just about the current crop or manager, it's somehow ingrained in the culture and character of the national squad to fck it up when it comes to the real deal.

Got to the tournament via the most favourable qualification route they could've imagined (scraping through at that) then getting brought down to Earth at the first hurdle. It's absolutely meeting realistic expectations.
 

Ross_

Well-Known Member
Official Ticketer
Northern Ireland who didn't even qualify for the Euros?

We're bad, but we're not that bad.
Scotland Vs Ni over 2 legs ... i don't know if i would be confident Scotland win that.

look at wales last night - look at what it meant to them even fannies like Robbie Savage were going mental - the full nation wanted wales to win last night.

in Scotland half of us (myself included) couldn't give a monkeys about the national team due to the SFA being a shambles for so many years and the fact they don't play decent football - many have become disinterested - granted everyone will be tartan army daft on Friday but you just need to look at attendances of previous games (pre covid) there is a lack of appetite for the National team atm.
 

90minsofmadness

Well-Known Member
They've got an excellent balance to their team and are always set up properly.

Doubt they've got anything that comes close to the diddyness of O'Donnell anywhere near their squad.
They very much do

Their 3 goalies cant gat a game, Ward, first choice cut it at Aberdeen level
Their defence includes:
Chris Gunter - Charlton
Tom Locklayer - Luton Town
Midefield has a starter of Joe Morell of Luton Town and a well and truely past it Joe Allen

The squad is also padded out with Championship dross amongst a few excellent (not World class, anymore IMO) players.

Scotland have a much stronger squad but don't have the right attitude. Wales play a modern passing style with flexibility and are not scared of anyone. They throw their best young players in straight away, often before their clubs play them so they have 10-15 caps before they are even 21. If Gilmour was Welsh he would have made his debut 2 years ago and be one of the first players on the teamsheet for this tournament. They were absolutely outclassed by Switzerland but never gave in and got back into the game and could have nicked it by the end.

That's before we get into the Tartan Army and their hatred of England above supporting their team.
 

bkerr72

Well-Known Member
I only saw the last 10-15 minutes or so of last night so can't comment too much on them but against Switzerland I thought they were lucky to get a point. Embolo was causing there defence all sorts of problems but what I did notice from last night on the counter they're so quick and full of pace on with James on the left and Bale on the right. Meanwhile we rely on O'Donnell whose job as a wing back is apparently to defend and not attack :rolleyes:

They work together as a unit when defending don't think there centre halves are that great but they do the basics right. They also have a very good goalkeeper which helps we also have a good one but he's 3rd choice.
 

Cooperfan

Well-Known Member
We pick a team based on "what's he did wrong" rather than "what can he offer"

"I used to manage him and he's did nothing wrong. Good lad" is not the correct approach.
 

andy5836

Well-Known Member
It's amazing how the whole of Scotland was right up for the game against the Czechs and then every bit of enthusiasm just got taken away in a second when we all saw that line up that Clarke named.

Every person I've spoken to, no matter what team they support have said Clarke got it all wrong and needs to take the blame for that defeat.
 

90minsofmadness

Well-Known Member
Just to follow on from my point about them picking their best youngsters early

Ampadu - 20 years old - 25 caps - 1 appearance for CHelsea
Neco Williams - 20 years old - 12 Caps - 12 appearances for Liverpool
Rhys Norrington-Davies - 22 years Old - 5 Caps - 0 appearances for Sheff Utd
Harry Wilson - 24 years old - 27 Caps - 0 App for Liverpool (first cap in 2017 when he hadn't had any loans)
Dylan Levitt - 20 Years Old - 8 Caps for Wales - 0 Appearances for Man Utd
Mathew Smith - 21 Years Old - 14 Caps for wales - 0 Appearances for Manchester City
Ben Woodburn - 21 Years Old - 10 Caps for Waes - 6 Appearances for Liverpool

Yet we're scared to play Billy Gilmour and Nathan Patterson

 

EC54

Well-Known Member
Can't comment on the structure of other countries but here in Scotland , ive watched my laddie (now in his 40's) and 2 grandsons (now 18 and 14) play football right from fun 4's age. As has been said on here, get into him, smash him, take him out from parents on the touchline is prominent through the ages even from quite young. You look at our visits to Pittodrie, Easter Road etc etc and all the home support want to see is there team getting into you showing much venom and not interested in any decent play, just wipe us out and they are away happy We will never be able to have the technical skills here and anyone who does such as Billy Gilmour will be away ASAP abroad or to England.We are going nowhere in this country as things stand.
 
Top