Aguero and Sian Massey Elliss

Oleg_McNoleg said:
If he’d done that to a male linesman he might well have been carded these days. But he wouldn’t have done it to a male linesman. It was weird. Plenty of local league refs I’ve encountered would’ve cleaned a player out for that.
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How do you know? Arteta does the exact same thing to Mike Dean in a clip posted by another poster.
 
Hadn't seen or heard anything of it.

Just youtube'd it and anybody trying to look for something in it is a grade a fucking mentalist who needs shunned.
 
RickDagless said:
Your virtual signalling pish deserves condescension. Sorry mate, but it tends to get flung out by people without an argument. It’s not virtue signalling when someone’s opinion differs from yours. As a married man with two young girls, I happen to think men should generally not place their hands on any woman uninvited in any circumstance.

And the argument that it’s not brought up when it happens to men is a false equivalence. If men were historically faced with inappropriate touching and unwanted attention in that manner, it would be an issue.

Aguero didn’t do anything all that bad. But it speaks volumes when this forum is full of angry men being upset that a few people reasonably suggest he should just not touch the official.
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I don't care if people have different opinions from me. Physical contact isn't exactly a black and white topic, there is a big difference between a stranger doing it, a friend, colleague or family member doing it and there is a big difference in the manner and intentions of doing it also. That goes for men and women. Is it an issue when someone pats you on the back and gives your arm a nudge after you make a joke? I don't see it.

You can't just assume that every guy is alright with it and that every woman isn't though, and just because women have a history of it doesn't render any individual scenario more significant if it is a woman victim. Southern Asian slavery trades are abhorrent, should they be treated with less thought because they don't have the history of African trades? Of course not.
 
Ultimately the question comes down to whether we look past the fact that she's a female when she's in her job.

The argument that suggests that nothing is wrong with what happens seems to centre on the fact that hey, that's what happens - footballers touch officials. They put their arms around them, pat their heads, touch their arms, etc. No one thinks twice when that stuff happens because it's men doing it to other men: most men in here will often do the same thing with colleagues or workmates. I wonder how many men in here would do the same with female colleagues, though?

It's the look of the thing, more than anything. A footballer screaming in the face of a male referee, calling him a "cheating fcking cnt" isn't really given two thoughts. A grown man saying the same thing to a woman would be, quite correctly I think, deemed highly inappropriate.

And that's not woke, or third wave feminism. I think it's just decency. There are certain behaviours tolerated towards men, committed by other men, that aren't appropriate when woman are involved. That's actually an old-fashioned idea more than anything.
 
RickDagless said:
Bunch of angry basement dwellers upset that people don’t think players should put their hands on officials.
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It must be utterly exhausting living such a fragile existence. I genuinely pity you.

If this is the first time you’ve ever taken issue with a player touching an official, then you’re nothing but a virtue signalling hypocrite.
 
Shamrock hand and crown said:
If anyone finds what Aguero done was acceptable you are a dinosaur.
Under no circumstances should you put you’re hands on someone else’s body. Did he mean anything wrong ? Probably not. However, that doesn’t make it right
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Sorry mate, but this post is the definition of the label "Snow---- flake".

People acting like he smacked her on the backside. Harmless.
 
The Blue Viper said:
Absolutely nothing wrong with the first one on a football pitch.


Se if he had been yellow carded, do we think that would have been the end of it.
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Agree there is nothing wrong with the first picture.
Shamrock hand and crown said:
If anyone finds what Aguero done was acceptable you are a dinosaur.
Under no circumstances should you put you’re hands on someone else’s body. Did he mean anything wrong ? Probably not. However, that doesn’t make it right
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I agree with you completely, he probably didn’t mean anything by it, just heat of the moment type thing. However I’m of the opinion that he wouldn’t have pulled a male linesman by the neck like that. And as I’ve said before, male or female, it’s not appropriate.
 
Skyy Bluenose said:
Sorry mate, but this post is the definition of the label "Snow---- flake".

People acting like he smacked her on the backside. Harmless.
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I'm willing to bet that @Shamrock hand and crown was brought up my decent parents in an environment where touching woman at any time was something that men just didn't do. Don't try to diminish his argument by suggesting that this is something that is only suddenly inappropriate.
 
ClockworkOrange said:
I'm willing to bet that @Shamrock hand and crown was brought up my decent parents in an environment where touching woman at any time was something that men just didn't do. Don't try to diminish his argument by suggesting that this is something that is only suddenly inappropriate.
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you do realise you're all but saying if they dont agree with you both then they didnt have decent parents and are sexpests
 
You don't put your hands on officials.
That is the issue here... people are making it about gender though (especially the media) and that just dilutes their argument for having Massey treated like other officials.
Laura Woods for instance (Who I think is brilliant at her job BTW) is on talksport saying its not about Massey's gender, then 2 seconds later saying to her male guests that if she was in the pub with them and a guy done that to her they'd be like "Thats not right"

So its not about gender, but it is, but its not...

Plenty of examples in the past of officials getting a wee pull here or there and just saying "what are you doing, don't touch me" etc which I'm fine with. But there was no media outcry, the way they're going on is like she was assaulted!
 
The sooner we have one sex the better and all males can forget about manners towards females.
 
ClockworkOrange said:
In what way was she unable to carry out the role?
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In the way yer man in the picture above didn't merit a second thought and this bint is due 6 months off like a train driver who's "survived" the ordeal of a jumper and deserves the compensation of a Penn state victim.

Oh wait. Or maybe you've just contradicted yourself and admitted both referees dealt with harmless contact the same way without creating a shit show independent of their gender. And anyone doing so is a handwringing moron.
 
Think the main question is would he have put his arm round a male official? And tbh i'd say you see it a lot - and both ways. Officials putting an arm round a player, and vice versa.

Should that stop just because it's a female official? I think it is a difficult one because of how some perceive it.

Just wait till we find out he sent her flowers and chocolates to apologise.
 
MightyGersLand! said:
In the way yer man in the picture above didn't merit a second thought and this bint is due 6 months off like a train driver who's "survived" the ordeal of a jumper and deserves the compensation of a Penn state victim.

Oh wait. Or maybe you've just contradicted yourself and admitted both referees dealt with harmless contact the same way without creating a shit show independent of their gender. And anyone doing so is a handwringing moron.
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Think I've learned everything I need to know about what you think about women, mate.
 
ClockworkOrange said:
Ach well, better that than misogyny, eh?
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Depends what you think is misogyny
I think she is a highly respected professional official who is more than capable of dealing with any situation on the pitch, some people obviously think she's just a poor woman who needs help
 
Colinrfc2 said:
Depends what you think is misogyny
I think she is a highly respected professional official who is more than capable of dealing with any situation on the pitch, some people obviously think she's just a poor woman who needs help
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I don't think anyone thinks that she's a poor woman. People think that Aguero was inappropriate. There's a difference there.

As I said before, it ultimately comes down to whether we look past someone's gender when they're in a role, and a role usually occupied by men. Paul Ince calling a fourth official a "fcking cnt" and telling him he's going to batter him is inappropriate at all times. It's more inappropriate when it's a woman. You can't say, in that instance, "ach, men get that all the time in football, it's fine." The (and I'm loathe to use the word, outrage, here, because the reaction to a minor reaction in a first place has been much more vociferous) response to this perhaps exists in the first place because, the low number of female officials notwithstanding, perhaps most footballers just know not to do this?
 
I think Aguero is rightly being criticised here.

Context is key here as well, there's nothing jokey about the incident, he's remonstrating with Sian Massey and she walks away from him. She's not smiling or looking particularly pleased with Aguero shouting at her about a decision for a throw in.

Aguero is obviously upset that a she's walked off. He's then put his hand on her neck/shoulder and pulled her back slightly. She's then made a move showing that she's clearly uncomfortable with it and the situation ends.

If you were to do that in any workplace scenario with a female colleague and she complained you would find yourself in serious trouble...and rightly so.

Thankfully, Sian Massey has taken it for what it is and hasn't escalated the situation. Unfortunately, it does raise questions about her reasons for not doing so. The criticism that would come her way if she did so would be incredible
 
I actually think it would have been reported as a friendly arm round the shoulder if it was a male linesman.
 
ClockworkOrange said:
I don't think anyone thinks that she's a poor woman. People think that Aguero was inappropriate. There's a difference there.

As I said before, it ultimately comes down to whether we look past someone's gender when they're in a role, and a role usually occupied by men. Paul Ince calling a fourth official a "fcking cnt" and telling him he's going to batter him is inappropriate at all times. It's more inappropriate when it's a woman. You can't say, in that instance, "ach, men get that all the time in football, it's fine." The (and I'm loathe to use the word, outrage, here, because the reaction to a minor reaction in a first place has been much more vociferous) response to this perhaps exists in the first place because, the low number of female officials notwithstanding, perhaps most footballers just know not to do this?
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I have no idea what Paul Ince has to do with the situation, nobody is supposed to touch officials but it happens every week it's only an issue because she's a woman
Although it's not her making a fuss it's people being offended for her
 
Opalescent said:
I think Aguero is rightly being criticised here.

Context is key here as well, there's nothing jokey about the incident, he's remonstrating with Sian Massey and she walks away from him. She's not smiling or looking particularly pleased with Aguero shouting at her about a decision for a throw in.

Aguero is obviously upset that a she's walked off. He's then put his hand on her neck/shoulder and pulled her back slightly. She's then made a move showing that she's clearly uncomfortable with it and the situation ends.

If you were to do that in any workplace scenario with a female colleague and she complained you would find yourself in serious trouble...and rightly so.

Thankfully, Sian Massey has taken it for what it is and hasn't escalated the situation. Unfortunately, it does raise questions about her reasons for not doing so. The criticism that would come her way if she did so would be incredible
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This is a good point. I don't usually believe in drawing comparisons between football and quotidian work life but it's fair here.

Imagine talking with a colleague at the coffee machine in work. She walks away from you, disagreeing with a point you've made. Instead of letting it go, you walk up to her and put your arm around her, pulling her back slightly. Would anyone seriously get away with that? You'd be explaining yourself to HR later that day and rightly so. That applies to any superior.

It's inappropriate. I have no idea how thinking that makes you a "shitebag" — I mean, how does such an insult even correlate?
 
Abu Dhabi Loyal said:
As many have alluded to elsewhere in the thread, interactions like this happen all the time between male officials and players. I remember Hugh Dallas giving van Bronckhurst (I think it was) a friendly, get a move on, pat on the backside at the piggery in May 99. Don't remember reading too much about that incident.
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You are aware 1999 was 21 years ago and society has moved on a little. I don't think the Sian Massey issue should be about gender. If I was walking away from someone and they were annoyed and grabbed me on the shoulder then rightly so I would tell them not to quite bluntly. From my perspective that's what is wrong with the Aguero incident. This sexist misogynistic angle I find embarrassing.
 
RickDagless said:
Bunch of men in this thread telling women how they should feel about being touched inappropriately..... by men.

Amazing stuff.

"If they want equality" brigade out in full force too. A wonderful mix of sexist, backwards thinking idiots.

1 - You shouldn't put your hand on anyone in that manner, male or female. That is 'equality'.
2 - It was inappropriate and overly familiar. He hasn't done anything abhorrent, but he shouldn't have put his hand on her.
3 - Women have historically been victims of inappropriate touching. Equality doesn't mean that it's ok to do so now.

This forum really attracts the worst in our support sometimes.
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Really depends on what you mean be equality, if that was a man not one thing would have been said about it.
 
Colinrfc2 said:
I have no idea what Paul Ince has to do with the situation, nobody is supposed to touch officials but it happens every week it's only an issue because she's a woman
Although it's not her making a fuss it's people being offended for her
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Cavin said:
Really depends on what you mean be equality, if that was a man not one thing would have been said about it.
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Of course they're making a fuss because it's a woman. It's because that similar action between men isn't inappropriate when it's a woman instead. I'm not sure what people are finding so hard to understand about that.

The Paul Ince example - a real case - is used to highlight another instance of behaviour that, while inappropriate, would have been deemed highly, highly inappropriate if a woman was involved.
 
Shamrock hand and crown said:
If anyone finds what Aguero did was acceptable then you are a dinosaur.
Under no circumstances should you put you’re hands on someone else’s body. Did he mean anything wrong ? Probably not. However, that doesn’t make it right
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You've never put your hand on anyones shoulder trying to get past them in a crowded pub, or at a gig? Never had a handshake then slap on the back saying cheerio to a pal? Never gave anybody a friendly pat or playful shove having a conversation or a bit of banter?

Come on mate.
 
Cavin said:
Really depends on what you mean be equality, if that was a man not one thing would have been said about it.
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Come on mate.

Using the 'they wanted equality, here it is' chat is a total false equivalence.

"They wanted equality! That means its ok to touch 'em unwarranted and uninvited because men don't mind it."

That's not equality. That's creepy as f*ck.

And again, to be clear: I don't think anyone on here has said that Aguero did anything over the top. Just that he should probably keep his hands off the officials.

The really interesting thing here is the outraged mob rushing to defend him when nobody is really attacking him. I'm sure we're one step away from 'it's political correctness gone mad', and then at that point I'm afraid the truth of that position becomes evident.

We had some roasters going on about 'virtue signalling' and 'snow - flakes'. The truth is more simple: be a wee touch more enlightened and don't put your hand on a woman unless its invited. For that matter, maybe don't do that to a guy either, eh? There's that equality some of the angrier FF lads are after.
 
ClockworkOrange said:
Of course they're making a fuss because it's a woman. It's because that similar action between men isn't inappropriate when it's a woman instead. I'm not sure what people are finding so hard to understand about that.

The Paul Ince example - a real case - is used to highlight another instance of behaviour that, while inappropriate, would have been deemed highly, highly inappropriate if a woman was involved.
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Wasn't really my point bud, you've been bandying about the word "equality"when it suits.
I'd like to know your definition of the word given that you think women should be treated differently?
To me your opinion on it is actually preferential treatment to Women officials.
Fine, if we want to go that way, I'm not in favour of it but, like many other things in this world, political correctness will always triumph over sense.
 
Cavin said:
Wasn't really my point bud, you've been bandying about the word "equality"when it suits.
I'd like to know your definition of the word given that you think women should be treated differently?
To me your opinion on it is actually preferential treatment to Women officials.
Fine, if we want to go that way, I'm not in favour of it but, like many other things in this world, political correctness will always triumph over sense.
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I haven't used the word equality at once in this thread.

If your argument comes down to the idea that men and women should be treated equally then I suppose you're okay with footballers threatening female officials with violence and calling them, for example, "cheating cnts"? That's equality, is it not, even if they're both inappropriate?

I'm sure you were brought up with decent values. Don't let your disdain for third wave feminism stop you from treating women with the respect I'm sure your mammy told you they deserved.
 
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