Hearts/Partick Thistle SFA Charge (Notice of Complaint)

[Tim Hunter]

Can that be done ? How ?

I really don’t know what to expect as an outcome to a This phase but I do feel there will be more phases to follow across the coming months

Mystery sponsor appears with a similar amount of cash that has been awarded to H/P.

 

[htws]

Is it possible the SPFL try and delay this arbitration so the season starts before there is an outcome to put more pressure on H/PT and hope they don't take out an interdict.

 

[Del]

How can the SPFL negotiate any settlement without the agreement of the other 40 clubs?

As much as these slippery bastards try I cannot see them being allowed to spend millions without first explaining why they need to. If they have done nothing wrong as they claim why would the settle out of court.

Hearts and Thistle need to hold their nerve here.

 

[Virgil Hilts]

How can the SPFL negotiate any settlement without the agreement of the other 40 clubs?

As much as these slippery bastards try I cannot see them being allowed to spend millions without first explaining why they need to. If they have done nothing wrong as they claim why would the settle out of court.

Hearts and Thistle need to hold their nerve here.

The do s will probably just be shareholders, and they’ll have to wear it.

The only choice the clubs might get is if the Doncaster resolution is revisited or if the SOFL is given a straight choice of compensation. V reinstatement

All because ceItic didn’t want the season N & V’d.

 

[1288Bear]

Is it possible the SPFL try and delay this arbitration so the season starts before there is an outcome to put more pressure on H/PT and hope they don't take out an interdict.

In simple terms - no.
Lord Clark was quite clear that he believed delays to date to be SPFL delays and suggested that any attempt to frustrate or delay the Arbitration process could see it back in Court.
The question of timescales was raised and, in particular, what happens if a decision isn't reached until after the season starts and that decision is in favour of Hearts and Partick. I'm sure the answer given was the league would need to stop and, as such, Lord Clark advised that the decision must be made before the 1st of August.
I suspect that he envisaged such a delay bring a possible SPFL tactic and he made it clear that would not be acceptable.
The longer this goes on the more likely it is that it's going back to Court.

 

[Valley Bluenose]

How can the SPFL negotiate any settlement without the agreement of the other 40 clubs?

As much as these slippery bastards try I cannot see them being allowed to spend millions without first explaining why they need to. If they have done nothing wrong as they claim why would the settle out of court.

Hearts and Thistle need to hold their nerve here.

The prize money - from Sky - is divvied up after expenses. They simply put any compo down as an expense and don’t need any vote. Just means the prize pot could be £10m and not the £30m they were touting when the Sky deal was signed. Bear in mind huge sums have already, or about to, be given to Sky, BT Sport, the BBC and overseas broadcasters.

 

[Barrymoped]

The prize money - from Sky - is divvied up after expenses. They simply put any compo down as an expense and don’t need any vote. Just means the prize pot could be £10m and not the £30m they were touting when the Sky deal was signed. Bear in mind huge sums have already, or about to, be given to Sky, BT Sport, the BBC and overseas broadcasters.

Ah yes, the compensation, the thing we were told would ONLY happen if we had a null and void situation?

 

[gmbear]

From memory there was briefly an explanation given as to why Null & Void was not an option.

It went along the lines of the strict definition of Null & Void means that it is "as if it never existed" and, as such, if it never existed TV companies, sponsors even Season Ticket holders could not only claim a rebate for the outstanding games but could also claim back the money for the games that had been played but now didn't exist.

This was proved to be nonsense and very quickly the narrative changed to simply repeating the line ad nauseam that "N&V, as has been pointed out previously and explained, is not an option".

Even pointing out that it was nonsense and suggesting that, if the definition of N&V was the issue, you call it "incomplete" was simply ignored by those with the original agenda.

Incomplete with no winners and no losers, no titles awarded and no relegation from the leagues, as that's what the 2019-20 season is: incomplete.

Scottish football is in the current mess it is in because the authorities would not call the season what it was, incomplete, and instead have awarded titles that weren't won and demoted clubs that weren't relegated.

I'm still hopeful the vote will be rescinded, the award of titles and demotion of clubs will be overturned, and the officers and administrators who overseen this corruption are exposed and removed form post.

 

[1288Bear]

Incomplete with no winners and no losers, no titles awarded and no relegation from the leagues, as that's what the 2019-20 season is: incomplete.

Scottish football is in the current mess it is in because the authorities would not call the season what it was, incomplete, and instead have awarded titles that weren't won and demoted clubs that weren't relegated.

I'm still hopeful the vote will be rescinded, the award of titles and demotion of clubs will be overturned, and the officers and administrators who overseen this corruption are exposed and removed form post.

That is the ideal scenario but even if the result goes the way we hope I think we may have to settle for something less.

Hearts, Partick and Stranraer ought to be reinstated without question which automatically means Utd, Raith and Cove stay down. I have a feeling that they will try and name the previously promoted clubs as "winners" of an incomplete season so that they keep the title but without the benefit of promotion and give them some form of nominal compensation equivalent to the parachute payments.

That way, although we all know it to be wrong, they don't need to ask the mhanky mhob to return the trophy that they didn't win.

 

[gmbear]

That is the ideal scenario but even if the result goes the way we hope I think we may have to settle for something less.

Hearts, Partick and Stranraer ought to be reinstated without question which automatically means Utd, Raith and Cove stay down. I have a feeling that they will try and name the previously promoted clubs as "winners" of an incomplete season so that they keep the title but without the benefit of promotion and give them some form of nominal compensation equivalent to the parachute payments.

That way, although we all know it to be wrong, they don't need to ask the mhanky mhob to return the trophy that they didn't win.

"winners" of an incomplete season lol I hadn't even thought of that but you're probably right.

They would take it to lol

 

[1288Bear]

"winners" of an incomplete season lol I hadn't even thought of that but you're probably right.

They would take it to lol

It's the only way I can see them spinning it that still achieves what they set out for.
As you say they would without question accept it and claim it as a regular title. There's no way in that situation it could be recorded without an asterisk.
If it sees Doncaster and his mates fall then that's undoubtedly a good result for us and, so long as we dont allow them to replace with like for like, then there is a chance of a more level playing field going forward.
Then we target the SFA and the removal of the placement there too.

 

[okbear]

That is the ideal scenario but even if the result goes the way we hope I think we may have to settle for something less.

Hearts, Partick and Stranraer ought to be reinstated without question which automatically means Utd, Raith and Cove stay down. I have a feeling that they will try and name the previously promoted clubs as "winners" of an incomplete season so that they keep the title but without the benefit of promotion and give them some form of nominal compensation equivalent to the parachute payments.

That way, although we all know it to be wrong, they don't need to ask the mhanky mhob to return the trophy that they didn't win.

The awarding of the Premier League title is, in the grand financial scale of things, a small part of this scandal. It's the place in the CL qualifiers that goes with being "Champions" that really matters.

The financial benefits of qualifying for CL football could be their difference between adding to their squad or needing a fire sale.

This is the real part that needs challenged if H/PT win their case.

 

[1288Bear]

The awarding of the Premier League title is, in the grand financial scale of things, a small part of this scandal. It's the place in the CL qualifiers that goes with being "Champions" that really matters.

The financial benefits of qualifying for CL football could be their difference between adding to their squad or needing a fire sale.

This is the real part that needs challenged if H/PT win their case.

Agreed. I'm just not sure, or smart enough, to see how we set out a case that stops this happening. We can challenge the award of the title and make a reasoned arguement based on the fact that if there are no losers then, logically, there are no winners. That should be an easy win if Hearts and Partick are successful.

The problem is that irrespective of there being a winner or not the footballing authorities need to nominate someone to represent them in the CL and that nomination needs to meet UEFA's stipulated criteria re sporting merit. My suspicion is that they will go for one of two options. Either position at date of suspension or utilise the previous season. If either of those fail they will go with the coefficient and although we have a better result this year they will use the UEFA figure which covers several years and in all instances that means the beggars get it.

One option could be to look at the distribution of earnings from the CL but not sure how we would go about that.

 

[okbear]

Agreed. I'm just not sure, or smart enough, to see how we set out a case that stops this happening. We can challenge the award of the title and make a reasoned arguement based on the fact that if there are no losers then, logically, there are no winners. That should be an easy win if Hearts and Partick are successful.

The problem is that irrespective of there being a winner or not the footballing authorities need to nominate someone to represent them in the CL and that nomination needs to meet UEFA's stipulated criteria re sporting merit. My suspicion is that they will go for one of two options. Either position at date of suspension or utilise the previous season. If either of those fail they will go with the coefficient and although we have a better result this year they will use the UEFA figure which covers several years and in all instances that means the beggars get it.

One option could be to look at the distribution of earnings from the CL but not sure how we would go about that.

Totally agree that with the majority of Scottish Football powers being corrupted by a cabal, our chances of being the Scottish representative in CL is extremely slim.

I would love some legal loophole to be found by someone much more clever than me, that exposes sporting and financial corruption and for sanctions to be imposed. Alas, that's probably never going to happen.

 

[1288Bear]

Totally agree that with the majority of Scottish Football powers being corrupted by a cabal, our chances of being the Scottish representative in CL is extremely slim.

I would love some legal loophole to be found by someone much more clever than me, that exposes sporting and financial corruption and for sanctions to be imposed. Alas, that's probably never going to happen.

That actually might be the avenue - if Hearts and Partick end up back in court and there is evidence not only that the decision was flawed but corrupt then, given the money involved, criminal charges could follow.

If there is any direct link to the fat Japanese then that could be sufficient to deny them the CL place. Prove that the corruption was directly linked to CFC and aimed at access to the CL cash and that opens the door to challenge their name being put forward.

 

[Carsons Army]

Hell will freeze over before that’s allowed to happen . They’ll be bought off I guarantee it . It’s an utter disgrace but there will be another £8 million knocked off the sky tv deal to pay hearts and thistle compo

paying comp means its invalid.

 

[Carsons Army]

That actually might be the avenue - if Hearts and Partick end up back in court and there is evidence not only that the decision was flawed but corrupt then, given the money involved, criminal charges could follow.

If there is any direct link to the fat Japanese then that could be sufficient to deny them the CL place. Prove that the corruption was directly linked to CFC and aimed at access to the CL cash and that opens the door to challenge their name being put forward.

100% shame McLennan ties are now weaker. As for Doncaster he had a nice big sum to boost his annual if leagues kicked off in August the 1st. Which might have not been the case if a season was played to the finish.

 

[Hurricane Run]

Hell will freeze over before that’s allowed to happen . They’ll be bought off I guarantee it . It’s an utter disgrace but there will be another £8 million knocked off the sky tv deal to pay hearts and thistle compo

This is how i see it too. Then that sleekit git Doncaster will carry on without a word of condemnation despite costing the clubs nearly £20M between compensation to clubs and tv companies. Its an embarrassing state of affairs for this country

 

[km_2083]

The soapdodgers will chip in with a brown envelope

Could they afforded £8m to buy off hearts and thistle ?

 

[Carsons Army]

Don’t be surprised if
don’t be surprised if they reach a settlement and it’s all dropped I wouldn’t be surprised in the least.

Hearts QC may not want to settle. I would assume they now know that the league has no option but to reverse this corrupt decision.

 

[Grigo Yossarian]

In simple terms - no.
Lord Clark was quite clear that he believed delays to date to be SPFL delays and suggested that any attempt to frustrate or delay the Arbitration process could see it back in Court.
The question of timescales was raised and, in particular, what happens if a decision isn't reached until after the season starts and that decision is in favour of Hearts and Partick. I'm sure the answer given was the league would need to stop and, as such, Lord Clark advised that the decision must be made before the 1st of August.
I suspect that he envisaged such a delay bring a possible SPFL tactic and he made it clear that would not be acceptable.
The longer this goes on the more likely it is that it's going back to Court.

Sounds good 1288.

 

[tazzabear]

The awarding of the Premier League title is, in the grand financial scale of things, a small part of this scandal. It's the place in the CL qualifiers that goes with being "Champions" that really matters.

The financial benefits of qualifying for CL football could be their difference between adding to their squad or needing a fire sale.

This is the real part that needs challenged if H/PT win their case.

Always been my argument.
They‘ve been awarded the opportunity of a £30m lottery win.
If this was about league titles, that’s one thing but, it was never thus.
This is about money.
If it weren’t, they‘d have offered some of the potential earnings back to the league bodies.
Something the league authorities could easily have demanded in return from them being awarded the league.
But, it’s all about the money.

 

[jaws73]

Remember that Monday 20th July is the deadline for voting on the Resolution to grant the SPFL emergency powers.

I doubt it will pass but it is still another hurdle to be overcome in downing the cabal (I don't have any doubt they would use any powers granted to resolve 2019/20 let alone 2020/21).

 

[turps100]

Remember that Monday 20th July is the deadline for voting on the Resolution to grant the SPFL emergency powers.

I doubt it will pass but it is still another hurdle to be overcome in downing the cabal (I don't have any doubt they would use any powers granted to resolve 2019/20 let alone 2020/21).

If it had passed, we would have heard by now!

 

[ChildOfGoth]

The prize money - from Sky - is divvied up after expenses. They simply put any compo down as an expense and don’t need any vote. Just means the prize pot could be £10m and not the £30m they were touting when the Sky deal was signed. Bear in mind huge sums have already, or about to, be given to Sky, BT Sport, the BBC and overseas broadcasters.

What’s the timing around that VB , Under the current board or the post-AGM replacement ?

 

[jaws73]

If it had passed, we would have heard by now!

We certainly would have. Maybe a lot waiting until deadline day though.

 

[nemessis]

We certainly would have. Maybe a lot waiting until deadline day though.

Why would any positive thinking person/club give more power to an entity that it's representatives have already been accused of bullying it's members, it just doesn't make sense.

 

[Colinstein69]

Always been my argument.
They‘ve been awarded the opportunity of a £30m lottery win.
If this was about league titles, that’s one thing but, it was never thus.
This is about money.
If it weren’t, they‘d have offered some of the potential earnings back to the league bodies.
Something the league authorities could easily have demanded in return from them being awarded the league.
But, it’s all about the money.

This is exactly why I suggested that we (Rangers) should propose that all Euro prize money for next season should be pooled and shared amongst all clubs. They would lose far more from it than we would and it should be an easy sell to the other member clubs. Got shot down in here though, majority saw it as us helping all the diddy clubs......

 

[1288Bear]

Sounds good 1288.

Not sure of the accuracy of some of the reports doing the rounds but if there is any truth in them then it appears that the SPFL are acting exactly as Lord Clark anticipated and, despite his warnings, they are going against several of his directions.

He warned about the threatened SFA penalties potentially being open to legal challenge - not withstanding that the SFA issued notices of complaint.

He instructed disclosure of the relevant documents and, by all accounts, the SPFL have failed to deliver.

He warned against delaying tactics which appears to be exactly what the SPFL are indulging in.

And he set timescales which the SPFL appear to be ignoring.

Each of these things could on their own see this back in court. Collectively it seems almost certain that will happen. Unless, of course, the stories currently circulating are, in fact, bollocks.

 

[Texas ranger]

This is exactly why I suggested that we (Rangers) should propose that all Euro prize money for next season should be pooled and shared amongst all clubs. They would lose far more from it than we would and it should be an easy sell to the other member clubs. Got shot down in here though, majority saw it as us helping all the diddy clubs......

Rangers have done their part helping the “ diddy clubs” over the last seven years, more than any other club. It did us, or Scottish football, in my opinion, no good. We can’t afford to give our Euro money to help the same clubs again, it’s not Rangers problem.

 

[Crispy Bacon]

This is exactly why I suggested that we (Rangers) should propose that all Euro prize money for next season should be pooled and shared amongst all clubs. They would lose far more from it than we would and it should be an easy sell to the other member clubs. Got shot down in here though, majority saw it as us helping all the diddy clubs......

What makes you think we aren’t relying on the dough to an extent?

 

[Virgil Hilts]

Why would any positive thinking person/club give more power to an entity that it's representatives have already been accused of bullying it's members, it just doesn't make sense.

A bit like voting against a resolution to have an independent inquiry into the cIusterfućk that was the SPFL’s handling of the COVID shutdown.

 

[Colinstein69]

What makes you think we aren’t relying on the dough to an extent?

Not to say the extra dough isn't welcome but I'd be surprised if we were relying on it. Our achievements in reaching the group stages the last 2 seasons has been against the odds, it would be foolhardy to budget for that being a regular occurrence. In saying that, the Europa prize money is a fraction of the CL money and if the mentally challengeds were to make the group stages it would dwarf our Europa prize money hence, if it was split, we may even be better off and they would obviously be much worse off.

 

[Colinstein69]

Rangers have done their part helping the “ diddy clubs” over the last seven years, more than any other club. It did us, or Scottish football, in my opinion, no good. We can’t afford to give our Euro money to help the same clubs again, it’s not Rangers problem.

Think of it more like 'handicapping the scum club' than 'helping the diddy clubs'.

 

[KGR98]

Maybe it should be up to the clubs that voted to end the season early under false pretences to foot the legal bill Rangers should make that abundantly clear

 

[Valley Bluenose]

What’s the timing around that VB , Under the current board or the post-AGM replacement ?

The first instalment from Sky is due to be received by the SPFL in mid-August, so it will be after the SPFL AGM and election of new Board (not that I expect huge changes of direction there).

 

[BIGBISCUITOOO]

Why would any positive thinking person/club give more power to an entity that it's representatives have already been accused of bullying it's members, it just doesn't make sense.

Sense and Scottish football are polar opposites. For all of us, it has been incredible watching our football being stripped and decisions made with no moral compass.
There have been numerous occasions where we thought a vote from clubs would go a certain way only to for it to go the opposite.
I wouldn't be able to tell you how our clubs would vote but unfortunately common sense and the greater good are not options that they will think of.

 

[flootbon]

When will someone or anyone mention the EUFA directive:

"UEFA reserves the right to refuse admission [ to the Champions League ] to any club proposed by a National Association from a prematurely terminated domestic competition in particular where:

• the clubs were selected pursuant to a procedure which was not objective, transparent and non-discriminatory so that the selected clubs could not be considered as having been qualified on sporting merit;

• there is a public perception of unfairness in the qualification of the club. "

Someone or anyone. It would rattle the cage.

 

[1288Bear]

Random thought on the compensation issue -

If Hearts and Partick win their case and have their relegation overturned but the SPFL, rather than going down the reinstatement route, opt for compensation then not only does that cost every single club, some of whom may not survive, but it totally destroys competition in the lower leagues for the coming season.

If, for example, Dundee Utd stay put with a nominal (say £500k) compensation package then clubs like ICT will fancy their chances next season.

If, however, Hearts come down with somewhere around £7m compensation then what chance do the others in the Championship have of preventing Hearts going back up.

I know money doesn't necessarily mean success but it plays a huge part and, as such, the lower leagues would be largely meaningless next year so, in addition to the financial hit to clubs, there is no way, assuming they had a voice, the clubs would accept this.

That being the case, if Hearts and Partick win, reinstatement is the only option.

If that means Utd etc stay put and there are now no winners (or losers) across the divisions then so be it.

 

[Albert Oribine]

Perhaps these SFA fines are more about the cabal working to reduce the Hearts / PT claim?

Swapping Mulraney for Petrie always had an ominous look about it. I don't think the timings of these are coincidental.

Arbitration will look for all parties to compromise; we could see Hearts relent to lesser compensation (£8m to £4m?), reduced further with the SFA fine.

If so, the cabal continues ... dare I say, even strengthened ... as they promote the idea they stared down a challenge and guided Scottish Football through all of this.

End result? No real change .. move along .. nothing to see here.

Hope I'm way off. ... and that the Nelms-gate docs are revealed.

Hearts are not looking compo they are wanting to stay in the premier league

 

[Albertz Loyal]

This is exactly why I suggested that we (Rangers) should propose that all Euro prize money for next season should be pooled and shared amongst all clubs. They would lose far more from it than we would and it should be an easy sell to the other member clubs. Got shot down in here though, majority saw it as us helping all the diddy clubs......

I think better option would be a % of the money, say 50%

 

[Jollyboy John]

Why would any positive thinking person/club give more power to an entity that it's representatives have already been accused of bullying it's members, it just doesn't make sense.

The only clubs that would vote for this IMO are ones who can’t be bothered or ones who can’t be arsed with future bullying tactics ,There are a lot of clubs in the lower leagues who are quite happy just existing ,plodding on year to year hoping they get an away tie at Ibrox in a cup (no point getting a tie at the knew camp ,hardly any turn up) that keeps the doors open for another few years

 

[1288Bear]

I think better option would be a % of the money, say 50%

I believe all league clubs get some form of kick back from our teams doing well in Europe. The clubs competing in Europe could pool the European prize money, top up that payment to the other clubs and thereafter split the remainder between the clubs competing in Europe.

That way the clubs actually in Europe would not lose out significantly and the other clubs, some of whom still had a chance to qualify, all get a financial boost albeit minimal.

 

[Colinstein69]

I think better option would be a % of the money, say 50%

Yea, that's not a bad call.

I think better option would be a % of the money, say 50%

Yea, I dunno. My concern is if they make the CL then even with 50% they make circa 10m. I'd rather they got a fraction of that.

 

[Gibraltar Loyal]

Maybe unrelated but I hear there is a conference call for all clubs next week to discuss reconstruction again ... It’s Rangers who are instigating it to try and get colt teams into the league

Looks like we are trying to gain consensus

I really hope not.
As much as it would be good to get colt team into lower leagues we should not be giving SPFL a get out

 

[wontoofree]

It's the only way I can see them spinning it that still achieves what they set out for.
As you say they would without question accept it and claim it as a regular title. There's no way in that situation it could be recorded without an asterisk.
If it sees Doncaster and his mates fall then that's undoubtedly a good result for us and, so long as we dont allow them to replace with like for like, then there is a chance of a more level playing field going forward.
Then we target the SFA and the removal of the placement there too.

And the chances of that being allowed to happen are..................?

 

[Grigo Yossarian]

What makes you think we aren’t relying on the dough to an extent?

We need EL Group money to get close to breakeven I’d suggest mate.

 

[The Moon on Mars is Blue]

And the chances of that being allowed to happen are..................?

Good I expect ,as we still don't seem to have enough support in the SPFL to stop them just starting again. We are not looking for anyone to favour us just to be fair , unfortunately I have no confidence that if they were removed we would get this.

 

[Mad John]

Always been my argument.
They‘ve been awarded the opportunity of a £30m lottery win.
If this was about league titles, that’s one thing but, it was never thus.
This is about money.
If it weren’t, they‘d have offered some of the potential earnings back to the league bodies.
Something the league authorities could easily have demanded in return from them being awarded the league.
But, it’s all about the money.

An argument Rangers should have pursued. With an early call to end the league we were denied the sporting chance to not only win the league but the potential windfall of CL money.

 

[wontoofree]

Good I expect ,as we still don't seem to have enough support in the SPFL to stop them just starting again. We are not looking for anyone to favour us just to be fair , unfortunately I have no confidence that if they were removed we would get this.

This is exactly what I think also.