Helander over Katic

Govanx said:
Had a perfect excuse to give Katic a run out with Helander at half time as Goldson had already been booked and the ref was an accident waiting to happen. That said Helander looked just as shaky at times, but, it doesn't help when Tavernier is bombing up the wing leaving those two exposed. It proves once again how much Candeias pulled Tav's arse out the fire by tracking back and helping out and now that's gone.
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Nah there were a couple of times when Tav had made a good run and we stupidly lost the ball in daft areas. Hard to blame him for that, he's made the correct run and the midfield have let him down.
 
Six days ago, Helander was absolutely outstanding against Feyenoord. But now he is awful? Bizarre. I have no particular quibble with any of Goldson, Katic, Helander or indeed Edmundson. Of the first three, for me Goldson has been marginally the poorer. But I am quite happy with any combo. I still have nightmares of Wilson, Bates etc so for me the current debate needs to be set against that context.
 
Danger Zone said:
Whomever is selected will always have my full support during game time. I like all of our defenders, Edmundson included. I don’t like the idea of favouritism, which more or less every manager in the land is guilty of, and I think when the better performer is dropped and we see performances like that tonight, you can’t expect fans not to discuss it or ask questions.

We can look at that and discuss it without attacking any of them, we can be supportive of them all and still be vocal if we feel one of the players has gotten a raw deal.
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Unfortunately, this thread proves your final point to be false.
 
BrooklynBlue said:
When have we been "very lucky"? I posted on the other thread where that's also being suggested: 17 competitive games - 14 wins, 2 goalless draws in Poland/Luxembourg and 1 defeat. Cup semi-final and won our first game of the Europa League group after 4 round of qualifiers.

It was the same last week after Feyenoord - you banging on about Katic and Ojo.

Enjoy the win.
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We were very lucky tonight, especially in the second half. We were lucky against Feyenoord in the second half as well. Poor defensive errors almost cost us.

And yes, if players continue to be shit then I'll mention it. Feel free to block me. Ojo had another stinker tonight - decision making is awful at times and his right foot is for nothing more than standing on.
 
ald said:
Six days ago, Helander was absolutely outstanding against Feyenoord. But now he is awful? Bizarre. I have no particular quibble with any of Goldson, Katic, Helander or indeed Edmundson. Of the first three, for me Goldson has been marginally the poorer. But I am quite happy with any combo. I still have nightmares of Wilson, Bates etc so for me the current debate needs to be set against that context.
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correct .
 
I agree with a few posters who state Katic would be dropped if he put in a performance like Hellander did tonight.
I have to be honest I thought Goldson and Hellander looked shaky against St Johnstone.
Stevie May gave them an uncomfortable 45 mins and only a good save from Macgregor saved both centre half’s. May outmuscled Hellander in the air and Goldson was sleeping.
Cosgrove will batter those two. Katic is a must for Saturday.
 
Private_joker said:
Helander could have few complaints about being dropped after that. For their red card claim he looked like he was towing a car.
Katic offers more at set pieces too. He's generally more dynamic. That's not say Hellander is out of the reckoning in future.
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Agree. I think Helander let the guy get a head start because he thought Goldson was going for it though.
 
Northampton_Loyalist said:
Unfortunately, this thread proves your final point to be false.
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Well sadly not everyone can do it.

“Katic fanboys”

“Kept a clean sheet, nothing to see here”

This sort of nonsense shows the other side up to it too. I’m obviously gutted for Katic because I don’t think he deserved to be dropped and he’ll probably feel a bit worse watching that tonight. But generally I like all out centre halfs and think we’re fortunate to have those options.
 
Gerrard did Helander no favours tonight with that heading lesson on the pitch after the game, keep the criticism in-house
 
Tonight was a night for standing up and being counted. Yes we were poor and had an uncomfortable night but I've seen good Rangers sides struggle against so called weaker opposition, however they couldn't score and we won and I for one will sleep easy and wake refreshed. Goodnight.
 
From what I've seen so far i believe that katic is the best CB we have. Helander was the weakest player on the field tonight he looked slow and wasnt brave enough the amount of times that their big no.9 won headers against him was frightening he couldnt even judge the flight of the ball and i was lost for words when he hit that ball out for a corner.I hope it was just a bad game because to sign a player for 3.5mill for him to turn into a flop wouldnt be good for us financially
 
On that pitch knowing the way Livingston play Katic should start. We’ve 4 centre backs and games will suit certain individuals better!
 
dt17 said:
We were very lucky tonight, especially in the second half. We were lucky against Feyenoord in the second half as well. Poor defensive errors almost cost us.

And yes, if players continue to be shit then I'll mention it. Feel free to block me. Ojo had another stinker tonight - decision making is awful at times and his right foot is for nothing more than standing on.
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Why are we the only ones who were lucky - do our missed opportunities not count in the same way?
 
dt17 said:
We were very lucky tonight, especially in the second half. We were lucky against Feyenoord in the second half as well. Poor defensive errors almost cost us.

And yes, if players continue to be shit then I'll mention it. Feel free to block me. Ojo had another stinker tonight - decision making is awful at times and his right foot is for nothing more than standing on.
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I think that’s what the forums for isn’t it ?

To discuss everything about the club we love ?

Agree on Ojo too. He clearly has talent but has to be more decisive & think more quickly too.

Yes, we had defensive issues undoubtedly but we could have gone through clearly if he was thinking clearly. A frustrating but talented player.
 
I think for the money we paid for Helander it’s not unreasonable to expect him to be able to head the ball, be in the correct position and not pass the ball out of play. Some things are just absolute basics and a plastic pitch doesn’t excuse not doing them.

He was absolutely horrendous tonight as was Goldson.
 
Midfield General said:
I think Helander is a better overall player,but this game was a total culture shock for him.In hindsight this match was tailor made for Katic to battle it out with Dykes.
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Helander looks to me as if he reads the game well (tonight aside) but that he's physically very weak for a centre back which is worrying giving the hammer throwers we come up against in the league.
 
I would still worry about Katic on the plastic pitch tonight. I remember his ‘bambi on ice’ performance on plastic last year. Tonight made Helander look Konterman-esque, but I am confident he is far better than that and will bounce back.
 
We just seem to struggle on these pitches.

Helander was horrid tonight. Goldson wasnt great but nowhere near as bad as helander.

Dont care how much he cost but helander should come out for Katic on Saturday. No chance though.
 
ald said:
Six days ago, Helander was absolutely outstanding against Feyenoord. But now he is awful? Bizarre. I have no particular quibble with any of Goldson, Katic, Helander or indeed Edmundson. Of the first three, for me Goldson has been marginally the poorer. But I am quite happy with any combo. I still have nightmares of Wilson, Bates etc so for me the current debate needs to be set against that context.
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Far too sensible for on here!
 
BWO said:
As the players were walking off, Gerrard was on the pitch showing Helander how to attack a header....but of a riddy for Helander
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Yeah I love the gaffer but that’s a bit Phil Brown-esque. You don’t embarrass the players in front of the support and the cameras, especially when they’ve just had a shite game and not really stepped out of line.
 
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I thought Helander was decent upto that potential red card incident, his game went to shit after that.
 
What's the story said:
We just seem to struggle on these pitches.

Helander was horrid tonight. Goldson wasnt great but nowhere near as bad as helander.

Dont care how much he cost but helander should come out for Katic on Saturday. No chance though.
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Pretty sure Katic had a mare on that pitch last season and was then dropped....I tend to give our players the benefit of the doubt on those surfaces, they are a shambles to play on.
 
MearnsUnionist said:
The facts of the matter are the current back 4 have had 2 shut outs in 2 games, so Gerrard has called it right.

Niko had his poorest game of the season against Livingston and Gerrard clearly thought Helander's experience against Feyenoord would benefit us.

He was proved spot on and I certainly won't be wanting our defence changed, as long as the shut outs continue.
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I want it changed. Tonight Helander looked a slow and cumbersome centre half who was getting horsed in a foot race against bog standard Scottish forwards. At 6 foot 5 he was being beat in the air off journeyman.

After the game they panned into Stevie coaching him on how to attack the ball on a defensive header. Getting beat in a foot race and in the air is nothing to do with Livvys pitch. It's just pish centre half play.

I'd change it for Saturday.
 
Helander is bang average.

Katic can become world class.

That’s the difference between the two.

Overlooking Katic is poor management. Simple as.
 
What happens if Katic plays and we loose a goal? That will be some debate for who should face Young Boys in the next game.

Actually think we have 3 good centre backs at the moment. None of them perfect but all good defenders on their day.
 
What's the story said:
We just seem to struggle on these pitches.

Helander was horrid tonight. Goldson wasnt great but nowhere near as bad as helander.

Dont care how much he cost but helander should come out for Katic on Saturday. No chance though.
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I thought up to 70/75 minutes Goldson was as bad. He somehow seemed to get his head together after that.

In the possible red incident Goldson just stopped running, he did it again mid second half, leaving Helander to deal with Dykes on his own each time.

At the Davis clearance Goldson froze & let the attacker nick the ball there too. Shagger palmed it & then Davis cleared it up for us again in consecutive games.
 
He’s so slow it’s unreal.
Haven’t seen enough of him to say if he’s going to be a success but his lack of pace is going to give us major problems in this league

Gerrard showing him how to header a ball after the match is one of the most bizarre things I’ve seen. 3m odd and getting pulled to the side and told how to go up for a header.

Katic is the best CB at the club by an absolute country mile, it should always Katic + another.
 
Dress this up any wa you like chaps.

Tonight our 3 million quid centre half looked as bad as Kiernan and Svenson.

Getting beat in the air and on a sprint is nothing to do with the pitch. I let him off when May rolled him on Sunday but tonight he was absolute garbage.
 
dt17 said:
Nah there were a couple of times when Tav had made a good run and we stupidly lost the ball in daft areas. Hard to blame him for that, he's made the correct run and the midfield have let him down.
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I watched on RTV mate (don't know if you were there and had a better all around view) and even Durrant was agreeing with my thoughts. My opinion is that in the past DC would track back and help Tav out and that option is no longer there, so at times instead of holding a back four when we are a goal or so up there is pressure put on a back two or back three witjh Goldson being exposed needlessly. Only my opinion of course and since it's a Katic/Helander thread i will leave it at that.
 
Helander is a strange one. Sometimes he looks like a solid player, other times you can’t help but think he’a got a woopsie in him. Maybe the way he moves, turning radius of a bus.
 
Helander looked out of sorts but so did quite a few others it’s the pitch imo we have to win any way we can on them this season
 
It’s clear do me that when Helander and Goldson play together, we lack pace at the back. Katic has much more of that and has to start with either or.
 
Personally I’d have Katic in the side ahead of both Helander and Goldson, but what do I know? I’m just a supporter...
 
Helander had a bad time but we didn't concede and made no more errors than Goldson and Katic have been making regularly recently individually. Nothing bad happened, we got the result. Also the pitch is always a factor.

Still personally believe Katic is better than Goldson and Helander is potentially better than both. Not going to flip my opinion after a game we won on the worst surface in Scottish professional football.

Gerrard was clearly upset at the lack of heiding from Helander though which may be a concern but let's have a look going forward eh? He's been excellent when thrown in so far.
 
Danger Zone said:
One thing I will say, the surface is kind of a cheap excuse for a big centre half losing out in aerial battles.
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Aye. If it was just the surface that was the problem he should’ve had a field day with how much the ball was in the air tonight

Katic should’ve started
 
Why is it when you have genuine concerns about a player, based on the evidence of how they played, you then become a 'groupie' or 'fanboy' of another player.

Or when you have genuine concerns about a player you must automatically have been waiting for them to mess up because you love having a go at Rangers players.

No real fan thinks like that. We should be allowed to share our opinion whether it is positive or negative.

The thing with Helander is that it is not just against Livi that there have been shaky moments. In the previous two matches there had been incidents that could have went against us.

He seems to lack pace in one on one runs. The Livi striker did him a couple of times and there were moments in the last two matches it happened as well.

He gets far too tight to the opposition strikers. If Alfie was up against him, he is the sort of defender he would have a field day against.

His positioning goes from very good to all over the place. There are times he is well out of position and big gap appears behind him.

I will say, obviously, it has only been a couple of matches so he will still be settling. Maybe he needs a 8 or 9 performance to get kickstarted. For me though, the problems don't seem to be about settling into a system, they seem more technical based.

And yes, we have kept 3 clean sheets. But if it hadn't been for really poor finishing from the opposition or excellent saves from McGregor it wouldn't have. Helander and Goldson have looked all over the place at times.
 
hullohullo2304 said:
Why is it when you have genuine concerns about a player, based on the evidence of how they played, you then become a 'groupie' or 'fanboy' of another player.

Or when you have genuine concerns about a player you must automatically have been waiting for them to mess up because you love having a go at Rangers players.

No real fan thinks like that. We should be allowed to share our opinion whether it is positive or negative.

The thing with Helander is that it is not just against Livi that there have been shaky moments. In the previous two matches there had been incidents that could have went against us.

He seems to lack pace in one on one runs. The Livi striker did him a couple of times and there were moments in the last two matches it happened as well.

He gets far too tight to the opposition strikers. If Alfie was up against him, he is the sort of defender he would have a field day against.

His positioning goes from very good to all over the place. There are times he is well out of position and big gap appears behind him.

I will say, obviously, it has only been a couple of matches so he will still be settling. Maybe he needs a 8 or 9 performance to get kickstarted. For me though, the problems don't seem to be about settling into a system, they seem more technical based.

And yes, we have kept 3 clean sheets. But if it hadn't been for really poor finishing from the opposition or excellent saves from McGregor it wouldn't have. Helander and Goldson have looked all over the place at times.
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I would say he was at least an 8 against Feyenoord.
 
BWO said:
Pretty sure Katic had a mare on that pitch last season and was then dropped....I tend to give our players the benefit of the doubt on those surfaces, they are a shambles to play on.
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Aye pitches have big effect on performance for sure but even with that in mind I thought helander was particularly terrible
 
Woodrow Call said:
Dress this up any wa you like chaps.

Tonight our 3 million quid centre half looked as bad as Kiernan and Svenson.

Getting beat in the air and on a sprint is nothing to do with the pitch. I let him off when May rolled him on Sunday but tonight he was absolute garbage.
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I cant lie. I did think this during game. I cling to feynoord and the fact it was plastic pitch
 
Woodrow Call said:
I want it changed. Tonight Helander looked a slow and cumbersome centre half who was getting horsed in a foot race against bog standard Scottish forwards. At 6 foot 5 he was being beat in the air off journeyman.

After the game they panned into Stevie coaching him on how to attack the ball on a defensive header. Getting beat in a foot race and in the air is nothing to do with Livvys pitch. It's just pish centre half play.

I'd change it for Saturday.
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Couple of things Woodrow.

Helander was poor last night and was also unconvincing on the plastic at East Fife as well.

However, it's back to grass on Saturday and he's already proved himself on that surface against a very good Feyenoord attack.

Some of us on here noticed the "bog standard" Lyndon Dykes at Ibrox a couple of weeks ago, when he consistently beat Katic in the air and destroyed him for pace.
That was on grass too.

We even mentioned it on the thread about him, if you check.

Dykes will comfortably be the quickest striker in the country and while his overall play isn't at Rangers standard, he's a very awkward opponent, particularly on the plastic.

Remember he's very used to the surface too, coming from QOS.
He'd give any central defender a rough ride on that surface.

We also saw Julian and Ajer in particular, and Celtic in general, struggle against a lesser side in Hamilton on the plastic a couple of weeks ago.

Outside their goal, not one shot on target and barely a chance created.

I'd go with Helander against Aberdeen, but whether or not he starts against Young Boys, on the artificial surface is another matter.

Both him and Katic look very vulnerable on the plastic.

Big call for Gerrard.
 
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