In a world where King started with us from the bottom and we had a better coach/football set up.

RFC4ME

Well-Known Member
We theoretically could have had a very good core of players if a coach had been able to sell a solid vision, is that fair to say?

I appreciate it might have been difficult to attract and identify these players but it does offer a glimpse of what slipped through the net, or markets we could still be exploring at least?

The obvious being Robertson, McGinn who was achievable when leaving St Mirren he went to Hibs, Allen, McLean, Shankland and in another scenario possibly even Christie.

This isn't a way to dwell on the past, it was more just a look back at our future and a theoretical how it could and should have been even despite the kick in the balls we took.

With correct investment that period could have been a lot more enjoyable than it was.

***this isn't even just a way as to kick the shit out of McCoist either as it is easy to say things with hindsight.
 

Blue Steel

Well-Known Member
We theoretically could have had a very good core of players if a coach had been able to sell a solid vision, is that fair to say?

I appreciate it might have been difficult to attract and identify these players but it does offer a glimpse of what slipped through the net, or markets we could still be exploring at least?

The obvious being Robertson, McGinn who was achievable when leaving St Mirren he went to Hibs, Allen, McLean, Shankland and in another scenario possibly even Christie.

This isn't a way to dwell on the past, it was more just a look back at our future and a theoretical how it could and should have been even despite the kick in the balls we took.

With correct investment that period could have been a lot more enjoyable than it was.

***this isn't even just a way as to kick the shit out of McCoist either as it is easy to say things with hindsight.
Give me strength FFS :rolleyes:
 

RFC4ME

Well-Known Member
Do people honestly think top class coaches or players were going to come and ply their trade in the bottom tier of Scottish football?

None of the players mentioned in the original post or playing in and around Scotland out with the Old Firm have been "top players" or were at the time they would most likely/could have been looked at....
 

Talktalk

Well-Known Member
I’m sure if we had King at the helm in 2012 there would have been a roof put on the Erskine bridge by now to save lives
 

prenzlauerbear

Well-Known Member
Give me strength FFS :rolleyes:

It's an interesting question, ffs.

One of the difficulties was how our own players were affected by the standard of opposition. Wallace was a good example of not being tested, and how playing against part timers every week eventually rubs off on you (saying that, he did look decent again under Warburton for a bit).

Weirdly I remember a few folk on here saying we should make a controversial move for Christie when it looked like his Celtic career was over.
 

Pygmy_archer

Active Member
I've often thought the same thing. The idea of starting again with mostly youths and a few seasoned professionals and then emerging at the end with them battle hardened is a sound one. The problem was McCoist was too lazy to put the work in.
I hoped that that is what was going to happen. However, we ended up with players like Black etc who were manifestly not good enough either to play for Rangers or to bring through talented youth players, had we had any. It was a wasted opportunity. Laziness on the part of McCoist may not necessarily be the whole reason, it might also be partly attributed to his shortcomings as a coach and again, we don’t know what constraints he was forced to work under by Green and company.
 

BrooklynBlue

Well-Known Member
There was such uncertainty surrounding the Club that there would have been a reluctance from some players to join.

I think it's a nice idea but in reality it wasn't going to happen. That is not so say, however, that we couldn't have done it better.
 

RFC4ME

Well-Known Member
There clubs would have never allowed it

McGinn left St Mirren to sign for Hibs, Championship Hibs, for a development fee.
Robertson was playing for Queen of the South and signed for Dundee United under freedom of contract.

They weren't seemingly would be Balon D'or winners moving between top clubs being coached by elite level coaches, they went to work with Alan Stubbs and Jackie McNamarra....

The players being spoken about here at the time moves could have been made for them weren't going to top level clubs or out of the reach of the club, even at that time let alone had it been under stable ownership.
 

cold

Well-Known Member
I guess we got a lot the players we did because of the league we were in and the fact we had a transfer embargo for a year. We had something like 5 weeks to get a team together that would win the league.
 

cooprfc

Well-Known Member
I don't think things would've been much better tbh.

We had the embargo. We didn't just rush into signing Ian black and Kevin Kyle for the sake of it. It was literally a case of getting bodies in the door once we got our licence to play at the last minute.
 

Unicorn

Well-Known Member
The idea that we could have been hammered as a club, had the best talent jumping ship or allowed to leave to get them off the books, shunted down to the bottom tier, forced to operate under a transfer embargo all with the club being run by charlatans and opportunists and come through that with a strong core of players is laughable to be honest. Let alone anything even remotely as strong as the teams we had before.

People make it sound so simple though.
 

RFC4ME

Well-Known Member
The idea that we could have been hammered as a club, had the best talent jumping ship or allowed to leave to get them off the books, shunted down to the bottom tier, forced to operate under a transfer embargo all with the club being run by charlatans and opportunists and come through that with a strong core of players is laughable to be honest. Let alone anything even remotely as strong as the teams we had before.

People make it sound so simple though.

Never heard Dave King called that before.....

Just as an aside, none of the names being spoken here as could have been signings leaving us with a strong core are actually even that complicated.
 

cammyranger

Well-Known Member
Stuart Armstrong was a player I quite liked when he was at Dundee Hibs. He signed for them out of the blue, but I was hoping he would hang around Tannadice long enough for us to get him.
I’m convinced that if the events of 2012 hadn’t happened, Armstrong would’ve signed with us and not them. He was a very good player, but never seemed to buy in to their fans and the shite that goes along with it and couldn’t wait to get out the door.
 

magicoop

Well-Known Member
I don't think things would've been much better tbh.

We had the embargo. We didn't just rush into signing Ian black and Kevin Kyle for the sake of it. It was literally a case of getting bodies in the door once we got our licence to play at the last minute.
IIRC they were signed in our second season of the journey.
We played a Motherwell team who at the time were top of the League off the park in the LC.
We had the two Lee's and Neil Alexander with other players who had limited first team experience but I could happily have watched that for the next few seasons if it allowed our youngsters time to grow.
 

Calvinist

Well-Known Member
McCoist probably wouldn’t have lasted as long as manager had a functioning board been in place , but we might have been subject to
Pedro earlier .

we have won a watch with Gerrard but the board have shown the correct approach in appointing a good back room team and allowing money to be spent on good players .
 

cooprfc

Well-Known Member
IIRC they were signed in our second season of the journey.
We played a Motherwell team who at the time were top of the League off the park in the LC.
We had the two Lee's and Neil Alexander with other players who had limited first team experience but I could happily have watched that for the next few seasons if it allowed our youngsters time to grow.

No they signed at the start mate.

And those young boys you speak of played most games that season.
 

BearAbroad

Well-Known Member
Problem was our youth set up was abysmal at the time. If we had the young lads we have now (with proper coaches etc) we could have made a much better fist at growing a young team together with a few older seasoned pros for experience when the going gets tough...

Players like Kennedy, McCrorie brothers, NYC, Patterson, Maxwell, Barjonas, Mebude etc etc with more quality coming from younger age groups could really have made a difference.

Apart from perhaps Barry McKay who was fairly decent we were playing the likes of Ross Perry, Robbie Crawford, Fraser Aird etc who were never going to make the grade.
 

SmileyBear

Well-Known Member
Problem was our youth set up was abysmal at the time. If we had the young lads we have now (with proper coaches etc) we could have made a much better fist at growing a young team together with a few older seasoned pros for experience when the going gets tough...

Players like Kennedy, McCrorie brothers, NYC, Patterson, Maxwell, Barjonas, Mebude etc etc with more quality coming from younger age groups could really have made a difference.

Apart from perhaps Barry McKay who was fairly decent we were playing the likes of Ross Perry, Robbie Crawford, Fraser Aird etc who were never going to make the grade.

The McCrories were 14 at the time Barjonas was 13 Nathan young combes was not at us and was 9 mebude was 11.
Our youth was not abysmal just not strong enough at the time to handle playing professional football.
 

Knightswoodbear

Well-Known Member
Absolute non starter if we're talking about the old "project". Guys like black, Kyle, shiels etc. Were brought in because they were deemed to be far better than the immediate competition and thus would get us back up the leagues quickly. The clamour to play a team of kids/prospects still perplexes me to this day. That sort of thing is fine for a club that is content with a 6th or 7th place finish for a few seasons until things "click" or players improve enough to make a real impact. We're Rangers, you simply don't get that luxury here. Jesus Christ half our support are having aneurysms and demanding substitutions or screaming to get the ball into the box if we have a couple of misplaced passes or haven't scored by 15 minutes.

Now if King had been there from 2012 and we'd had a manager worth his salt given decent transfer funds, we could have potentially been back in the top flight within 3 seasons with a domestic cup under our belt. We'll never know.
 

RFC4ME

Well-Known Member
Absolute non starter if we're talking about the old "project". Guys like black, Kyle, shiels etc. Were brought in because they were deemed to be far better than the immediate competition and thus would get us back up the leagues quickly. The clamour to play a team of kids/prospects still perplexes me to this day. That sort of thing is fine for a club that is content with a 6th or 7th place finish for a few seasons until things "click" or players improve enough to make a real impact. We're Rangers, you simply don't get that luxury here. Jesus Christ half our support are having aneurysms and demanding substitutions or screaming to get the ball into the box if we have a couple of misplaced passes or haven't scored by 15 minutes.

Now if King had been there from 2012 and we'd had a manager worth his salt given decent transfer funds, we could have potentially been back in the top flight within 3 seasons with a domestic cup under our belt. We'll never know.

Did you ever actually watch the teams we played.......

The coaching philosophy embedded and implemented by McCoist was a total failure, it isn't one to argue a case for.

A team consisting of a younger core of the players mentioned in the original post along with for example McKay, McLeod, Little even would have been unchallenged till the Championship at least...

The notion we would have finished midtable if not for additions like Kevin Kyle is beyond ridiculous.

As is the idea our fans wouldn't have got behind a team without players of that ilk, our fans fucken hated that football team.
 

cooprfc

Well-Known Member
Did you ever actually watch the teams we played.......

The coaching philosophy embedded and implemented by McCoist was a total failure, it isn't one to argue a case for.

A team consisting of a younger core of the players mentioned in the original post along with for example McKay, McLeod, Little even would have been unchallenged till the Championship at least...

The notion we would have finished midtable if not for additions like Kevin Kyle is beyond ridiculous.

As is the idea our fans wouldn't have got behind a team without players of that ilk, our fans fucken hated that football team.


We literally played a team full of kids mate. I'm fed up typing the list of them out on here. Some of them aren't even pro footballers anymore.

The circumstances we faced were unprecedented and I think people forget how flung together everything had to be due to players leaving, embargoes and not even knowing if we were gonna get a licence.

Plus we didn't want to spend any money.
 

BaTmAn

Well-Known Member
I remember before everyone jumped ship being excited by the possibility of Fleck, Ness, McCabe, McLeod, McKay, Hutton, Little, Alexander, McCulloch and Wallace being the nucleus of our squad.

I guess the career most of them have had since would show that they were never good enough. Who knows?

Would have been nice to have tried though, instead of the 'seasoned pros' we got.
 

cloodie

Well-Known Member
There's a fair bit of hindsight going on here though. We know they've gone on to be top players but remember they signed for Hibs (in the championship) and Dundee Utd at the time and Robertson had been released from the scum. It's not like it was obvious that they'd have gone on to become the players they have.
 

cooprfc

Well-Known Member
I remember before everyone jumped ship being excited by the possibility of Fleck, Ness, McCabe, McLeod, McKay, Hutton, Little, Alexander, McCulloch and Wallace being the nucleus of our squad.

I guess the career most of them have had since would show that they were never good enough. Who knows?

Would have been nice to have tried though, instead of the 'seasoned pros' we got.

We did try mate.

Do folk honestly not remember?

Fleck, Ness and McCabe left and the others played all the time. Every game.
 

RFC4ME

Well-Known Member
We did try mate.

Do folk honestly not remember?

Fleck, Ness and McCabe left and the others played all the time. Every game.


Well, that's not even remotely true is it.....

To validate just untrue it is, our top performances that season included Cribari, Agyriou, Faure, Black and Sandaza - they were as much a core of that first season as any young players.

I would imagine Sandaza alone most likely cost the would be costs of having for example Robertson, McGinn and Shankland during the entire tenure of a 4 year contract with us...

And that was just our first season additions, it steadily regressed the further we went.

The question is around the idea of an alternative football and business model and philosophy which could have been used to find far more cost effective yet talented players from the lower leagues in Scotland and St Mirren, I don't think it's that absurd a view personally.....

We did quite patently miss out on what was quite achievable talent during that period - the level of talent would most likely have been even further reaching with a better grounding of a chairman and coach.
 

Knightswoodbear

Well-Known Member
Did you ever actually watch the teams we played.......

The coaching philosophy embedded and implemented by McCoist was a total failure, it isn't one to argue a case for.

A team consisting of a younger core of the players mentioned in the original post along with for example McKay, McLeod, Little even would have been unchallenged till the Championship at least... Up to

The notion we would have finished midtable if not for additions like Kevin Kyle is beyond ridiculous.

As is the idea our fans wouldn't have got behind a team without players of that ilk, our fans fucken hated that football team.

I did watch the teams that we played, and I'm confident that as good as McKay and McLeod were at that level, they weren't good enough to carry a team of Hegartys, Perry's, Cole's, Crawford's , Hutton's...these players are now playing their peak years at crusaders, darvel juniors, Derry city, ifk mariehamn in finland and Dumbarton. These were our best youth players. I know that the standard of opposition wasn't great but having that lot making up the basis for your best 11 would have seen us stuck down the leagues a lot longer than we were. I'm not in the slightest making a case for Ally's tactics or team but they were more than good enough and effective enough to get us back to back promotions. I guarantee that wouldnt have been the case with a team of our youths at the time.

Anyway going by your reply to me and others it seems that your mind is made up regardless-you're not willing to take others opinions on board so I don't really see the point in asking what others think if you get upset when they don't agree with you?

At the end of the day we almost undoubtedly would have been better off with king etc. at the helm. On the playing side of things I'm not for a minute suggesting that we should have stuck with the blacks/shiels/Kyle's etc. But what we did need were players of a calibre a level above what we were playing, who could not only better our opponents technically but handle the physical side of the lower league hatchet men. I stand by my opinion that we'd have been off our heads ti try escaping the divisions with how poor our youths were at the time.
 

cooprfc

Well-Known Member
Well, that's not even remotely true is it.....

To validate just untrue it is, our top performances that season included Cribari, yes fucken

The question is around the idea of an alternative football and business model and philosophy which could have been used to find far more cost effective yet talented players from the lower leagues in Scotland and St Mirren, I don't think it's that absurd a view personally.

It is true mate so no need for the snide comments.

Perry
Hegarty
Mitchell
McKay
Hutton
MacLeod
Aird
Crawford
Little

Played all the time with guys like Templeton supplementing those in the style the OP suggests.

Others such as Hemmings made a few appearances whilst guys like Gallagher and McAusland played some games the following season.

So don't start saying things aren't true when they are mate.

From when we got into the Championship with a bit more attraction and free of embargoes etc, with a better board, yes we would've done better. Please see King taking over and the appointment of a better coach and signing of our current captain.

But division 3....things were different mate.
 

High Society

Well-Known Member
Give me strength FFS :rolleyes:
I did watch the teams that we played, and I'm confident that as good as McKay and McLeod were at that level, they weren't good enough to carry a team of Hegartys, Perry's, Cole's, Crawford's , Hutton's...these players are now playing their peak years at crusaders, darvel juniors, Derry city, ifk mariehamn in finland and Dumbarton. These were our best youth players. I know that the standard of opposition wasn't great but having that lot making up the basis for your best 11 would have seen us stuck down the leagues a lot longer than we were. I'm not in the slightest making a case for Ally's tactics or team but they were more than good enough and effective enough to get us back to back promotions. I guarantee that wouldnt have been the case with a team of our youths at the time.

Anyway going by your reply to me and others it seems that your mind is made up regardless-you're not willing to take others opinions on board so I don't really see the point in asking what others think if you get upset when they don't agree with you?

At the end of the day we almost undoubtedly would have been better off with king etc. at the helm. On the playing side of things I'm not for a minute suggesting that we should have stuck with the blacks/shiels/Kyle's etc. But what we did need were players of a calibre a level above what we were playing, who could not only better our opponents technically but handle the physical side of the lower league hatchet men. I stand by my opinion that we'd have been off our heads ti try escaping the divisions with how poor our youths were at the time.
strange post
 

RFC4ME

Well-Known Member
I did watch the teams that we played, and I'm confident that as good as McKay and McLeod were at that level, they weren't good enough to carry a team of Hegartys, Perry's, Cole's, Crawford's , Hutton's...these players are now playing their peak years at crusaders, darvel juniors, Derry city, ifk mariehamn in finland and Dumbarton. These were our best youth players. I know that the standard of opposition wasn't great but having that lot making up the basis for your best 11 would have seen us stuck down the leagues a lot longer than we were. I'm not in the slightest making a case for Ally's tactics or team but they were more than good enough and effective enough to get us back to back promotions. I guarantee that wouldnt have been the case with a team of our youths at the time.

Anyway going by your reply to me and others it seems that your mind is made up regardless-you're not willing to take others opinions on board so I don't really see the point in asking what others think if you get upset when they don't agree with you?

At the end of the day we almost undoubtedly would have been better off with king etc. at the helm. On the playing side of things I'm not for a minute suggesting that we should have stuck with the blacks/shiels/Kyle's etc. But what we did need were players of a calibre a level above what we were playing, who could not only better our opponents technically but handle the physical side of the lower league hatchet men. I stand by my opinion that we'd have been off our heads ti try escaping the divisions with how poor our youths were at the time.

I am happily stating the football model we had during that time was a fucken shambles and if we had bought smarter, scouted better and coached better we would have been better off...

If a better football structure had been in place and we had made additions, achievable additions like McGinn, Robertson and Shankland we would have been in a lot better place as a football club than going down the route we did.....
 

BaTmAn

Well-Known Member
We did try mate.

Do folk honestly not remember?

Fleck, Ness and McCabe left and the others played all the time. Every game.

I remember McKay being in and out the team. I remember MacLeod playing almost every game either right or left mid instead of central to make way for utter wasters like Faure, Nicky Law or Black. I remember McCulloch going to centre back to make way for Kevin Kyle or Jon Daly. I remember Alexander being sold to bring in Cammy Bell.

So I do honestly remember.

Keeping Ness, McCabe and Fleck was also part of my pipe dream. Can understand why it never happened though.
 

RFC4ME

Well-Known Member
It is true mate so no need for the snide comments.

Perry
Hegarty
Mitchell
McKay
Hutton
MacLeod
Aird
Crawford
Little

Played all the time with guys like Templeton supplementing those in the style the OP suggests.

Others such as Hemmings made a few appearances whilst guys like Gallagher and McAusland played some games the following season.

So don't start saying things aren't true when they are mate.

From when we got into the Championship with a bit more attraction and free of embargoes etc, with a better board, yes we would've done better. Please see King taking over and the appointment of a better coach and signing of our current captain.

But division 3....things were different mate.

Mitchell, Crawford and Perry patently didn't play all the time....

The model built was never at any time one of young talented players supplemented with coachable players from the Scottish leagues.

Even in a world where it was, there is a chicken/egg element to that particular period in that it was a coach who showed no history or wish to develop and build players hence I attempted to remove culpability from McCoist.

His entire ethos to coaching was a bag of shit...

He made it appear nothing was achievable from the lower leagues, the point of my post is - it entirely was.

There was never at any stage a failed model of youth.
 
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Taki

Well-Known Member
Even allowing for how badly we were ran from 2012 to 2015, the one thing I took from the lower league years was how much of a physical/technical gap there was with the top flight. I would never have considered that before. People talk about the Motherwell game but that was pure adrenaline. A month later, ICT came to Ibrox and gave us a 3-0 drubbing and we were chasing shadows. Warburton bridged the gap in 2015/16 to some extent although even he had a horror show against St Johnstone.

I guess my point is that even if we had recruited the best of the rest - McLean, Robertson, Shankland, etc. - I think it would have been very difficult to get them coached to a high level while playing part-time teams every week. You saw how the likes of Wallace regressed and he wasn't a bad professional. It's just very difficult to maintain high standards when you're not being tested.
 

cooprfc

Well-Known Member
Mitchell, Crawford and Perry patently didn't play all the time....

The model built was never at any time one of young talented supplemented with identifiable coachable players from the league.

Because we couldn't due to the circumstances mate. We had embargoes to overcome and no licence til 24 hours before the first game.

If we didn't have those, and s better board, then aye we would've been in a better place. But the fact is we had those and it restricted any kind of long term planning or recruitment.

And those boys played every game mate. Perry and Crawford especially. It's simply lies to try to pretend we just filled the team with journeymen. We had loads of youth playing who've done nothing in their careers since. And those were the best we had left.
 

Colinrfc2

Well-Known Member
Not sure whether mcginn would have come to us, we already had a better left back tjan Robertson and i don't know who shankland was playing with at the time, we needed experienced pro,s because our kids, barring a few wouldn't have coped on there own
 

Knightswoodbear

Well-Known Member
I am happily stating the football model we had during that time was a fucken shambles and if we had bought smarter, scouted better and coached better we would have been better off...

If a better football structure had been in place and we had made additions, achievable additions like McGinn, Robertson and Shankland we would have been in a lot better place as a football club than going down the route we did.....
That's fair enough. Our recruitment policy that summer was an absolute panic move, the major problem with what you're proposing though is that at the time of us putting our fourth tier team together, the three players that you mentioned had about 5 senior appearances between them. The first one to show any promise was Robertson and we were already promoted by the team he'd been picked up by Dundee united. Granted there would have been good young players that we could have taken a chance on at the time, but again as I said, do you really think that if we'd not been promoted first season down there our fans would have had the patience to see who came good and who didn't? I don't think they would. There were certainly better ways to go about things but the last minute license being granted didn't exactly leave much time for any sense of proper scouting/negotiations. We brought in the players we did because they were proven at spl level and were deemed good enough to get us at least back up a couple of divisions. Nothing more nothing less.
 

RFC4ME

Well-Known Member
Because we couldn't due to the circumstances mate. We had embargoes to overcome and no licence til 24 hours before the first game.

If we didn't have those, and s better board, then aye we would've been in a better place. But the fact is we had those and it restricted any kind of long term planning or recruitment.

And those boys played every game mate. Perry and Crawford especially. It's simply lies to try to pretend we just filled the team with journeymen. We had loads of youth playing who've done nothing in their careers since. And those were the best we had left.

It's really not lies, there is people who keep records of appearances which show what is factual and not rather than people just saying "aye that is true"

Even accounting for transfer bans Rangers still had the opportunity to recruit and build a different model than the one we did.... and that did offer the chance to sign most of the players mentioned.
 

magicoop

Well-Known Member
No they signed at the start mate.

And those young boys you speak of played most games that season.
I stand corrected obviously hoping he'd played less games for us.
Like I said I would happily have stuck with the young players throughout the journey.
 
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