In a world where King started with us from the bottom and we had a better coach/football set up.

RFC4ME

Well-Known Member
I did watch the teams that we played, and I'm confident that as good as McKay and McLeod were at that level, they weren't good enough to carry a team of Hegartys, Perry's, Cole's, Crawford's , Hutton's...these players are now playing their peak years at crusaders, darvel juniors, Derry city, ifk mariehamn in finland and Dumbarton. These were our best youth players. I know that the standard of opposition wasn't great but having that lot making up the basis for your best 11 would have seen us stuck down the leagues a lot longer than we were. I'm not in the slightest making a case for Ally's tactics or team but they were more than good enough and effective enough to get us back to back promotions. I guarantee that wouldnt have been the case with a team of our youths at the time.

Anyway going by your reply to me and others it seems that your mind is made up regardless-you're not willing to take others opinions on board so I don't really see the point in asking what others think if you get upset when they don't agree with you?

At the end of the day we almost undoubtedly would have been better off with king etc. at the helm. On the playing side of things I'm not for a minute suggesting that we should have stuck with the blacks/shiels/Kyle's etc. But what we did need were players of a calibre a level above what we were playing, who could not only better our opponents technically but handle the physical side of the lower league hatchet men. I stand by my opinion that we'd have been off our heads ti try escaping the divisions with how poor our youths were at the time.
I am happily stating the football model we had during that time was a fucken shambles and if we had bought smarter, scouted better and coached better we would have been better off...

If a better football structure had been in place and we had made additions, achievable additions like McGinn, Robertson and Shankland we would have been in a lot better place as a football club than going down the route we did.....
 

BaTmAn

Well-Known Member
We did try mate.

Do folk honestly not remember?

Fleck, Ness and McCabe left and the others played all the time. Every game.
I remember McKay being in and out the team. I remember MacLeod playing almost every game either right or left mid instead of central to make way for utter wasters like Faure, Nicky Law or Black. I remember McCulloch going to centre back to make way for Kevin Kyle or Jon Daly. I remember Alexander being sold to bring in Cammy Bell.

So I do honestly remember.

Keeping Ness, McCabe and Fleck was also part of my pipe dream. Can understand why it never happened though.
 

RFC4ME

Well-Known Member
It is true mate so no need for the snide comments.

Perry
Hegarty
Mitchell
McKay
Hutton
MacLeod
Aird
Crawford
Little

Played all the time with guys like Templeton supplementing those in the style the OP suggests.

Others such as Hemmings made a few appearances whilst guys like Gallagher and McAusland played some games the following season.

So don't start saying things aren't true when they are mate.

From when we got into the Championship with a bit more attraction and free of embargoes etc, with a better board, yes we would've done better. Please see King taking over and the appointment of a better coach and signing of our current captain.

But division 3....things were different mate.
Mitchell, Crawford and Perry patently didn't play all the time....

The model built was never at any time one of young talented players supplemented with coachable players from the Scottish leagues.

Even in a world where it was, there is a chicken/egg element to that particular period in that it was a coach who showed no history or wish to develop and build players hence I attempted to remove culpability from McCoist.

His entire ethos to coaching was a bag of shit...

He made it appear nothing was achievable from the lower leagues, the point of my post is - it entirely was.

There was never at any stage a failed model of youth.
 
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Taki

Well-Known Member
Even allowing for how badly we were ran from 2012 to 2015, the one thing I took from the lower league years was how much of a physical/technical gap there was with the top flight. I would never have considered that before. People talk about the Motherwell game but that was pure adrenaline. A month later, ICT came to Ibrox and gave us a 3-0 drubbing and we were chasing shadows. Warburton bridged the gap in 2015/16 to some extent although even he had a horror show against St Johnstone.

I guess my point is that even if we had recruited the best of the rest - McLean, Robertson, Shankland, etc. - I think it would have been very difficult to get them coached to a high level while playing part-time teams every week. You saw how the likes of Wallace regressed and he wasn't a bad professional. It's just very difficult to maintain high standards when you're not being tested.
 

cooprfc

Well-Known Member
Mitchell, Crawford and Perry patently didn't play all the time....

The model built was never at any time one of young talented supplemented with identifiable coachable players from the league.
Because we couldn't due to the circumstances mate. We had embargoes to overcome and no licence til 24 hours before the first game.

If we didn't have those, and s better board, then aye we would've been in a better place. But the fact is we had those and it restricted any kind of long term planning or recruitment.

And those boys played every game mate. Perry and Crawford especially. It's simply lies to try to pretend we just filled the team with journeymen. We had loads of youth playing who've done nothing in their careers since. And those were the best we had left.
 

Colinrfc2

Well-Known Member
Not sure whether mcginn would have come to us, we already had a better left back tjan Robertson and i don't know who shankland was playing with at the time, we needed experienced pro,s because our kids, barring a few wouldn't have coped on there own
 

Knightswoodbear

Well-Known Member
I am happily stating the football model we had during that time was a fucken shambles and if we had bought smarter, scouted better and coached better we would have been better off...

If a better football structure had been in place and we had made additions, achievable additions like McGinn, Robertson and Shankland we would have been in a lot better place as a football club than going down the route we did.....
That's fair enough. Our recruitment policy that summer was an absolute panic move, the major problem with what you're proposing though is that at the time of us putting our fourth tier team together, the three players that you mentioned had about 5 senior appearances between them. The first one to show any promise was Robertson and we were already promoted by the team he'd been picked up by Dundee united. Granted there would have been good young players that we could have taken a chance on at the time, but again as I said, do you really think that if we'd not been promoted first season down there our fans would have had the patience to see who came good and who didn't? I don't think they would. There were certainly better ways to go about things but the last minute license being granted didn't exactly leave much time for any sense of proper scouting/negotiations. We brought in the players we did because they were proven at spl level and were deemed good enough to get us at least back up a couple of divisions. Nothing more nothing less.
 

RFC4ME

Well-Known Member
Because we couldn't due to the circumstances mate. We had embargoes to overcome and no licence til 24 hours before the first game.

If we didn't have those, and s better board, then aye we would've been in a better place. But the fact is we had those and it restricted any kind of long term planning or recruitment.

And those boys played every game mate. Perry and Crawford especially. It's simply lies to try to pretend we just filled the team with journeymen. We had loads of youth playing who've done nothing in their careers since. And those were the best we had left.
It's really not lies, there is people who keep records of appearances which show what is factual and not rather than people just saying "aye that is true"

Even accounting for transfer bans Rangers still had the opportunity to recruit and build a different model than the one we did.... and that did offer the chance to sign most of the players mentioned.
 

magicoop

Well-Known Member
No they signed at the start mate.

And those young boys you speak of played most games that season.
I stand corrected obviously hoping he'd played less games for us.
Like I said I would happily have stuck with the young players throughout the journey.
 

RFC4ME

Well-Known Member
That's fair enough. Our recruitment policy that summer was an absolute panic move, the major problem with what you're proposing though is that at the time of us putting our fourth tier team together, the three players that you mentioned had about 5 senior appearances between them. The first one to show any promise was Robertson and we were already promoted by the team he'd been picked up by Dundee united. Granted there would have been good young players that we could have taken a chance on at the time, but again as I said, do you really think that if we'd not been promoted first season down there our fans would have had the patience to see who came good and who didn't? I don't think they would. There were certainly better ways to go about things but the last minute license being granted didn't exactly leave much time for any sense of proper scouting/negotiations. We brought in the players we did because they were proven at spl level and were deemed good enough to get us at least back up a couple of divisions. Nothing more nothing less.
During the initial phase, the lower leagues, Rangers would have pissed that league even taking away several of the additions we made, it was wreck less and daft spend rather than a must to make our way up leagues.
 

Knightswoodbear

Well-Known Member
Even allowing for how badly we were ran from 2012 to 2015, the one thing I took from the lower league years was how much of a physical/technical gap there was with the top flight. I would never have considered that before. People talk about the Motherwell game but that was pure adrenaline. A month later, ICT came to Ibrox and gave us a 3-0 drubbing and we were chasing shadows. Warburton bridged the gap in 2015/16 to some extent although even he had a horror show against St Johnstone.

I guess my point is that even if we had recruited the best of the rest - McLean, Robertson, Shankland, etc. - I think it would have been very difficult to get them coached to a high level while playing part-time teams every week. You saw how the likes of Wallace regressed and he wasn't a bad professional. It's just very difficult to maintain high standards when you're not being tested.
This is a vastly overlooked point, players tend to improve on the basis of who they're playing against week in week out. You can see it in action with every player thats used clubs as a stepping stone. Morelos for example while at Helsinki was a great player for that level, if you were to pitch him at that time into a game against an epl team he'd likely be miles out of his depth. We can see the improvement in him ourselves over the last couple of years. Playing against plumbers and postmen whose main aim is to kick you off the park will do hee haw for a young players devopment. There's every chance that a shankland or mcginn would look every inch the championship player after spending 3 seasons playing against utter dross.
 

cooprfc

Well-Known Member
It's really not lies, there is people who keep records of appearances which show what is factual and not rather than people just saying "aye that is true"

Even accounting for transfer bans Rangers still had the opportunity to recruit and build a different model than the one we did.... and that did offer the chance to sign most of the players mentioned.
Ok mate. You've made up your mind. Another snide dig about people keeping facts. These guys played loads.

We played lots of young guys.

We had a matter of weeks to put a team together due to licence issues and embargoes.

If you've got a different recollection then that's cool.
 

supersonic

Well-Known Member
Official Ticketer
We did waste a lot of money on overpriced dud has beens. Investing in the right players would have made us more money by now. It wssnt until warburton came in we recruited better and even then some were shite.
 

RFC4ME

Well-Known Member
Ok mate. You've made up your mind. Another snide dig about people keeping facts. These guys played loads.

We played lots of young guys.

We had a matter of weeks to put a team together due to licence issues and embargoes.

If you've got a different recollection then that's cool.
No, it's not a snide dig its making reference to actual things.....
 

cooprfc

Well-Known Member
No, it's not a snide dig its making reference to actual things.....
If you honestly don't think Perry,Mitchell, Hegarty, Crawford, Hutton, MacLeod, Aird, Little, etc played absolutely loads that first year in division 3 then that's cool mate.
 

RFC4ME

Well-Known Member
If you honestly don't think Perry,Mitchell, Hegarty, Crawford, Hutton, MacLeod, Aird, Little, etc played absolutely loads that first year in division 3 then that's cool mate.
I don't think Perry and Mitchell played all the time because they fucken didn't Mitchell played about a handful of league games at the arse of the season, that's not a thing i think that's an actual thing.

Mitchell is someone who in the entirety of his career played 10 games for us that in seemingly only one persons terms counts as "all the time"


Yes we played a selective group of youth often, it was a handful of players at best, Perry was never a regular and was pretty much a missing person after Tanadice.
 

cooprfc

Well-Known Member
I don't think Perry and Mitchell played all the time because they fucken didn't Mitchell played about a handful of league games at the arse of the season, that's not a thing i think that's an actual thing.

Mitchell is someone who in the entirety of his career played 10 games for us that in seemingly only one persons terms counts as "all the time"

Calm down mate. I listed loads of players not just those three.

You obviously forgot we played loads of young guys a lot so have honed in on certain ones on the list that didn't play so much so you can argue it. They still played a significant part in the season.

Go get a can of juice.
 

The Dude

Well-Known Member
We theoretically could have had a very good core of players if a coach had been able to sell a solid vision, is that fair to say?

I appreciate it might have been difficult to attract and identify these players but it does offer a glimpse of what slipped through the net, or markets we could still be exploring at least?

The obvious being Robertson, McGinn who was achievable when leaving St Mirren he went to Hibs, Allen, McLean, Shankland and in another scenario possibly even Christie.

This isn't a way to dwell on the past, it was more just a look back at our future and a theoretical how it could and should have been even despite the kick in the balls we took.

With correct investment that period could have been a lot more enjoyable than it was.

***this isn't even just a way as to kick the shit out of McCoist either as it is easy to say things with hindsight.
No, regardless of vision most players were having to sacrifice three years of their careers to plod through the lower leagues of Scottish football.

Robertson would have sat behind Lee Wallace and would never have developed at the rate with a lack of first-team football.

McGinn wasn't particularly a standout, nor was Shankland. Christie had yet to make his Inverness debut in 2012 and would then have been subject to the transfer embargo and, again wasn't a standout.

Unless we were going to pay vastly over the odds for what we were going to get, dropping down to D3 was a MASSIVE gamble for any player and one few - particularly youngsters would have rated as better than our own at the time - would have been happy to take.
 

The Dude

Well-Known Member
Well, that's not even remotely true is it.....

To validate just untrue it is, our top performances that season included Cribari, Agyriou, Faure, Black and Sandaza - they were as much a core of that first season as any young players.

I would imagine Sandaza alone most likely cost the would be costs of having for example Robertson, McGinn and Shankland during the entire tenure of a 4 year contract with us...

And that was just our first season additions, it steadily regressed the further we went.

The question is around the idea of an alternative football and business model and philosophy which could have been used to find far more cost effective yet talented players from the lower leagues in Scotland and St Mirren, I don't think it's that absurd a view personally.....

We did quite patently miss out on what was quite achievable talent during that period - the level of talent would most likely have been even further reaching with a better grounding of a chairman and coach.
Faure was 20/21. Isn't that a young player?
 

RFC4ME

Well-Known Member
No, regardless of vision most players were having to sacrifice three years of their careers to plod through the lower leagues of Scottish football.

Robertson would have sat behind Lee Wallace and would never have developed at the rate with a lack of first-team football.

McGinn wasn't particularly a standout, nor was Shankland. Christie had yet to make his Inverness debut in 2012 and would then have been subject to the transfer embargo and, again wasn't a standout.

Unless we were going to pay vastly over the odds for what we were going to get, dropping down to D3 was a MASSIVE gamble for any player and one few - particularly youngsters would have rated as better than our own at the time - would have been happy to take.

They were never a "standout" because they were developing talent.
 

RFC4ME

Well-Known Member
Faure was 20/21. Isn't that a young player?
Not the criteria of a player with the ability to develop, he was overweight and a bit pish.....

The identification of talent and ability to coach had failed hence I caveated that in my original post.
 

RFC4ME

Well-Known Member
I seriously doubt it.
Robertson, maybe at a push.
McGinn would never sign for us.
McGinn signed for Hibs, I would imagine on buttons, I would doubt at that time if he would have given a %^*& what his leanings were if offered the wages of Law, Templeton, Black and co.

Supposed leanings soon fade when it comes to making money from a profession
 

loyalblueman

Active Member
Whilst the debate on the OP's topic is interesting and thought provoking, some of the names mentioned in the thread have me nightmares, having erased those names from my memory, and some of the awful performances under McCoist and his backroom staff. Given our financial plight, and the alleged business plan and their credibility of the so called board and leadership at the time, I guess we could only pee with the cock we had then?
Thank God for King and SG's management team now!
Happier days beckon:)):)):))
 

The Dude

Well-Known Member
Not the criteria of a player with the ability to develop, he was overweight and a bit pish.....

The identification of talent and ability to coach had failed hence I caveated that in my original post.
He'd recently left Lyon's Academy and had played every minute for France's under-19s as they lifted the Euros at that age group (the only player in the squad to do so).in 2010, was part of the U20 World Cup squad in 2011 then joined us in 2012.
 

RFC4ME

Well-Known Member
He'd recently left Lyon's Academy and had played every minute for France's under-19s as they lifted the Euros at that age group (the only player in the squad to do so).in 2010, was part of the U20 World Cup squad in 2011 then joined us in 2012.
Aye you are right to be fair, his career worked out well.
 

Dado's Bandage

Well-Known Member
I've often thought the same thing. The idea of starting again with mostly youths and a few seasoned professionals and then emerging at the end with them battle hardened is a sound one. The problem was McCoist was too lazy to put the work in.
This is offensively inaccurate nonsense. Anyone who knows anything about that time will tell you that Ally was completely pulled apart during the period and spent his time dealing with a multitude of non footballing matters. To say he was lazy is a scandalous comment. The other side to that is that it’s fantasy nonsense to think we’d have progressed through the leagues with kids. Our current crop are the best we’ve had in years and I’d say with confidence that we would not win League 2 with that team.
 

RFC4ME

Well-Known Member
This is offensively inaccurate nonsense. Anyone who knows anything about that time will tell you that Ally was completely pulled apart during the period and spent his time dealing with a multitude of non footballing matters. To say he was lazy is a scandalous comment. The other side to that is that it’s fantasy nonsense to think we’d have progressed through the leagues with kids. Our current crop are the best we’ve had in years and I’d say with confidence that we would not win League 2 with that team.
As is the fallacy anyone ever wanted to hand break us to ever actually just solely using youth either to be fair...
 

The Dude

Well-Known Member
If every mam
Aye you are right to be fair, his career worked out well.
I can point to examples for every single manager that has happened with.
But to say the boy never came here with some sort of pedigree is laughable.
 

RFC4ME

Well-Known Member
I can point to examples for every single manager that has happened with.
But to say the boy never came here with some sort of pedigree is laughable.
Yeah, he offered the appearance of a player looking to develop - a man at the peak of his physical powers so he was.
 

Rino100

Well-Known Member
It's a nice idea and one that was discussed on here at the time .

That we build a team of the best youth talent in Scotland and by the time they get up through the league's and into the spfl they would have played over 100 first team games together.

However, the off field shambles and the fear of meeting the scum in a cup ment we signed cheap players with SPL experience.
For that reason (drawing the scum in a cup), I can see why we did that
 

RFC4ME

Well-Known Member
So that stopped them being a standout at youth level?
Yip, not all players will standout at youth level, it can take players time to develop, grow, progress - tis part of talent identification and scouting - spotting flaws in players see Faure as an example of the opositie I suppose, clearly just someone with no desire to kick on in the game...

RE the players not standing out.

To most who bothered to watch Rangers then Robertson and Shankland had "stood out" - they had stood out to the extent they were signed by Dundee United and Aberdeen, McGinn had played in a side who won the League Cup Final and stood enough for Hibs to sign him, so they had done enough for people to notice them - there was no miracle formulae to it - they were decent young Scottish talent being picked up by clubs around us, or who we could outbid at a time we signed players like Nicky Law, Fran Sandaza, Ian Black, Ricky Foster etc and so on.

They are just examples, there is no rocket being reinvented here.... our identification of talent during that period was a disaster, but under better coaching the chance was there for better even in the lower leagues and there is evidence and examples of it.
 
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The Dude

Well-Known Member
Yip, not all players will standout at youth level, it can take players time to develop, grow, progress - tis part of talent identification and scouting - spotting flaws in players see Faure as an example of the opositie I suppose, clearly just someone with no desire to kick on in the game...

RE the players not standing out.

To most who bothered to watch Rangers then Robertson and Shankland had "stood out" - they had stood out to the extent they were signed by Dundee United and Aberdeen, McGinn had played in a side who won the League Cup Final and stood enough for Hibs to sign him, so they had done enough for people to notice them - there was no miracle formulae to it - they were decent young Scottish talent being picked up by clubs around us, or who we could outbid at a time we signed players like Nicky Law, Fran Sandaza, Ian Black, Ricky Foster etc and so on.
We already had plenty of decent young talent. Macleod and McKay were being held up as the future of the club, Charlie Telfer was apparently hard done by because he never got enough games (his career worked out well too) and there were boys like Hutton etc who had CL experience and played in title winning teams. Shankland went to Aberdeen and spent three years in the reserves. It's only been the last year or two it has come good for him. Before that he struggled consistently.
 

RFC4ME

Well-Known Member
We already had plenty of decent young talent. Macleod and McKay were being held up as the future of the club, Charlie Telfer was apparently hard done by because he never got enough games (his career worked out well too) and there were boys like Hutton etc who had CL experience and played in title winning teams. Shankland went to Aberdeen and spent three years in the reserves. It's only been the last year or two it has come good for him. Before that he struggled consistently.
So because a football club has talented players, it shouldn't sign more talented players - new one.
 

The Dude

Well-Known Member
So because we had talented players, we weren't allowed to sign more talented players?
Not unless they are a vast improvement on what we have. All of those players mentioned wouldn't have greatly improved our team at the time.
 

RFC4ME

Well-Known Member
Not unless they are a vast improvement on what we have. All of those players mentioned wouldn't have greatly improved our team at the time.
What is not a point I am making ..and even at that I mean, they clearly would have improved us.
 
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