Reorganisation of Scottish Football

[blueballsbear]

For this, read Gretna

We fair frontloaded investment on our own route back, luckily we had a proven fan base etc that the investors knew they would get a return eventually.
It’s taken 10 years though for us to show any kind of profit, you would be a brave (or daft) man to chuck tens of millions at a club of darvels stature

 

[the_littlest_hobo]

I surely can’t be the only one failing to get angry at teams cutting our allocations. It’s their ground/club to do what they like with. If I supported one of these teams I’d be angry as well at a home game against the OF being turned into a quasi home game for the opposition.

If cutting our allocation or training on the pitch beforehand handicaps us, it’s up to us with our players on 10x the wages to overcome.

 

[Bangersbc]

Restructure is essential.

Our national game has been stagnating, and the Darvel guy is right, there are so many obstacles to smaller/newer but ambitious clubs to progressing in our game. Rangers, with all our resources, took 4 years to get from the 4th tier to the 1st tier, and we were lucky we got to skip the pyramid below. These small teams require decades of investments to progress with little to no financial reward for moving up until you reach the top tier.

I'd love to see a reduction in the number of divisions by making them larger it would both allow for more rapid progression for ambitious well run clubs (such as we are slowly but surely seeing with Cove, FC Edinburgh and Kelty), and reduce the monotony of playing the same teams 4 times a year (often in near meaningless ties - let's face it, what does it even matter if you finish 5th or 8th in League 2?!)

My proposal of choice:

Tier 1: 18 teams (34 game season, 2 teams relegated annually)

Tier 2: 14 team (split after 26 games. Top 6 play an additional 10 games - 1st automatic promoted, 2nd-5th in two-legged play-offs for 2nd promotion spot. Bottom 8 play additional 14 games. Bottom 2 relegated.

Tier 3: 14 teams (identical to tier 2. The two relegated side go to the Lowland Highland Leagues. The champions of both of these leagues gain automatic promotion annually).

A league designed to create closer leagues (title challengers in first Tier will only face old form 4 times, not 8), but allow for rapid advancement, increase the number of local derbies, and remove the monotony of playing the same teams all the time. The 46 team system is made with a view also to allow for promotion of Colt sides (e.g. Rangers B, Hearts B, Scum B), although these would be capped at Tier 2.

If it were to start next season you'd see a league format something like this:

Tier 1:
Rangers (old firm derby with...)
Celtic
Hearts (Edinburgh Derby with...)
Hibs
Dundee Utd (Dundee derby with...)
Dundee FC
Ross County (Highland Derby with...)
Inverness
Kilmarnock (Ayrshire Derby with... )
Ayr United
Aberdeen
Greenock Morton
Livingston
Motherwell
Particle Thistle (Glasgow derby with...)
Queens Park
St Johnstone
St Mirren

Tier 2:
Raith Rovers (Fife derby with...)
Dunfermline (or...)
Kelty
Cove Rangers (Aberdeenshire derby with...)
Peterhead
Arbroath (Angus derby with...)
Montrose
Falkirk (Clacks derby with...)
Alloa
Hamilton Accies (Lanarkshire derby with...)
Airdrieonians
FC Edinburgh
Queen of the South
Dumbarton

Tier 3:
Clyde
Stirling Albion
Elgin
Annan
East Fife
Stranraer
Forfar
Stenhousemuir
Albion Rovers
Bonnyrigg Rose
Rangers B
Celtic B
Buckie Thistle
Spartans

This to me looks infinitely more entertaining, and potential for more regular derbies cropping up across the country such as Aberdeen, Fife, Ayrshire, etc. Slightly fewer games also gives more room for the cups, Europe, frozen pitches (and generally less fixture congestion).

Get it done?

 

[vicbex]

We struggle as it is to compete in Europe, and your idea is give cash we don’t have away?

It’s socialist nonsense. Your idea essentially is a race to the bottom. It will be competitive because we’ll all be as bad as each other.

It would be like the Welsh or Irish leagues and thankfully will never happen.

Have you forgetten about our European adventures in 1961, 67 and 72 and of course Celtic in 1967 and 74?

There's no point in killing our domestic league by distorting the cash distribution in the vain hope that we make the odd foray into europe. The priority has to be our bread and butter league competition.

Think about it when your sitting in Ibrox watching Rangers trying to beat most teams who turn up trying to get away with a 0 0 draw. Its boring and its futile. The game is dying.

 

[vicbex]

Restructure is essential.

Our national game has been stagnating, and the Darvel guy is right, there are so many obstacles to smaller/newer but ambitious clubs to progressing in our game. Rangers, with all our resources, took 4 years to get from the 4th tier to the 1st tier, and we were lucky we got to skip the pyramid below. These small teams require decades of investments to progress with little to no financial reward for moving up until you reach the top tier.

I'd love to see a reduction in the number of divisions by making them larger it would both allow for more rapid progression for ambitious well run clubs (such as we are slowly but surely seeing with Cove, FC Edinburgh and Kelty), and reduce the monotony of playing the same teams 4 times a year (often in near meaningless ties - let's face it, what does it even matter if you finish 5th or 8th in League 2?!)

My proposal of choice:

Tier 1: 18 teams (34 game season, 2 teams relegated annually)

Tier 2: 14 team (split after 26 games. Top 6 play an additional 10 games - 1st automatic promoted, 2nd-5th in two-legged play-offs for 2nd promotion spot. Bottom 8 play additional 14 games. Bottom 2 relegated.

Tier 3: 14 teams (identical to tier 2. The two relegated side go to the Lowland Highland Leagues. The champions of both of these leagues gain automatic promotion annually).

A league designed to create closer leagues (title challengers in first Tier will only face old form 4 times, not 8), but allow for rapid advancement, increase the number of local derbies, and remove the monotony of playing the same teams all the time. The 46 team system is made with a view also to allow for promotion of Colt sides (e.g. Rangers B, Hearts B, Scum B), although these would be capped at Tier 2.

If it were to start next season you'd see a league format something like this:

Tier 1:
Rangers (old firm derby with...)
Celtic
Hearts (Edinburgh Derby with...)
Hibs
Dundee Utd (Dundee derby with...)
Dundee FC
Ross County (Highland Derby with...)
Inverness
Kilmarnock (Ayrshire Derby with... )
Ayr United
Aberdeen
Greenock Morton
Livingston
Motherwell
Particle Thistle (Glasgow derby with...)
Queens Park
St Johnstone
St Mirren

Tier 2:
Raith Rovers (Fife derby with...)
Dunfermline (or...)
Kelty
Cove Rangers (Aberdeenshire derby with...)
Peterhead
Arbroath (Angus derby with...)
Montrose
Falkirk (Clacks derby with...)
Alloa
Hamilton Accies (Lanarkshire derby with...)
Airdrieonians
FC Edinburgh
Queen of the South
Dumbarton

Tier 3:
Clyde
Stirling Albion
Elgin
Annan
East Fife
Stranraer
Forfar
Stenhousemuir
Albion Rovers
Bonnyrigg Rose
Rangers B
Celtic B
Buckie Thistle
Spartans

This to me looks infinitely more entertaining, and potential for more regular derbies cropping up across the country such as Aberdeen, Fife, Ayrshire, etc. Slightly fewer games also gives more room for the cups, Europe, frozen pitches (and generally less fixture congestion).

Get it done?

Good post. A lot of hard work put into that. The problem though is it still means just 2 teams playing for the title with the rest just making up the numbers. Its boring, predictable and embarrassing.

We need to share the income more evenly.

 

[King Richard Gough]

Have you forgetten about our European adventures in 1961, 67 and 72 and of course Celtic in 1967 and 74?

There's no point in killing our domestic league by distorting the cash distribution in the vain hope that we make the odd foray into europe. The priority has to be our bread and butter league competition.

Think about it when you’re sitting in Ibrox watching Rangers trying to beat most teams who turn up trying to get away with a 0 0 draw. It’s boring and it’s futile. The game is dying.

The game has moved on massively since the 60s and 70s.

You’re stuck in a time warp and seem to think by making every team equally poor that is somehow going to improve the product. All you would be doing is making us and them as bad as the rest.

That’s improving nothing and would leave us and them even further behind the rest of Europe.

Why should Rangers or them for that matter subsidise the rest? It’s parochial nonsense to say our priority is bread and butter domestic football. Us and them should be trying to be as successful as we can be in European terms.

No one would want to watch your idea of a competitive league as the quality would be awful. Just because something is close it doesn’t make it worthwhile.

 

[vicbex]

The game has moved on massively since the 60s and 70s.

You’re stuck in a time warp and seem to think by making every team equally poor that is somehow going to improve the product. All you would be doing is making us and them as bad as the rest.

That’s improving nothing and would leave us and them even further behind the rest of Europe.

Why should Rangers or them for that matter subsidise the rest? It’s parochial nonsense to say our priority is bread and butter domestic football. Us and them should be trying to be as successful as we can be in European terms.

No one would want to watch your idea of a competitive league as the quality would be awful. Just because something is close it doesn’t make it worthwhile.

You're so wrong but I guess things will have to get even worse before the penny drops (pun intended).

You do know that gate receipts from cup games are shared? Living in the past?

Dont forget too that there are plenty of potential fans who dont attend games because they know their team cant win. The finances dictate winners and losers. That's not sport. Its like the Christians against the Lions.

As for "socialist nonsense". I guess boxing, horse racing, golf etc with their handicap and weight categories is just "socialist nonsense"? Its about creating competition.

 

[King Richard Gough]

You're so wrong but I guess things will have to get even worse before the penny drops (pun intended).

You do know that gate receipts from cup games are shared? Living in the past?

Dont forget too that there are plenty of potential fans who dont attend games because they know their team cant win. The finances dictate winners and losers. That's not sport. It’s like the Christians against the Lions.

You’re an old guy stuck in the past.

You reference European runs from over 50 years ago as some justification for a race to the bottom strategy, without recognising how much the game has changed.

Thankfully there are few socialists like you within football, and your mental ideas will never happen.

I would love to see you tell our investors thanks for keeping the club afloat, you now need to share the revenue we generate with the rest of the dross in this country. Vicbex wants a manufactured close race.

The best scenario would be some sort of European league where Rangers and them could find their level. Let the rest of the dross here fight it out for the scraps left behind and let’s see how exciting that really is.

 

[vicbex]

You’re an old guy stuck in the past.

You reference European runs from over 50 years ago as some justification for a race to the bottom strategy, without recognising how much the game has changed.

Thankfully there are few socialists like you within football, and your mental ideas will never happen.

I would love to see you tell our investors thanks for keeping the club afloat, you now need to share the revenue we generate with the rest of the dross in this country. Vicbex wants a manufactured close race.

The best scenario would be some sort of European league where Rangers and them could find their level. Let the rest of the dross here fight it out for the scraps left behind and let’s see how exciting that really is.

We're a european "diddy" club. We wouldnt get in a super league. And anyway cant you see how futile that would be as the super rich clubs would just do to us what we do to the "dross" in Scotland?

You seem to be getting personal so I'll leave you to enjoy the 'quality' football you like so much. Next up St Johnstone, again. Maybe go for a 5 or 6 nil on my coupon.

 

[King Richard Gough]

We're a european "diddy" club. We wouldnt get in a super league. And anyway cant you see how futile that would be as the super rich clubs would just do to us what we do to the "dross" in Scotland?

You seem to be getting personal so I'll leave you to enjoy the 'quality' football you like so much. Next up St Johnstone, again. Maybe go for a 5 or 6 nil on my coupon.

It’s not personal, I just can’t stand socialist let’s all be equally shite ideas.

If you’ve watched us recently I wouldn’t waste your money on us scoring 5 or 6.

 

[Nod25]

The restructure happened a couple of seasons ago. It’s theoretically possible for Darvel (for example) to get to the Premiership. I must admit apart from a bit of ironing out I quite like the pyramid system from tier 5 down.

 

[penilee57]

Any reorganization should start with a clear out at the top. Clowns in suits at Hampden, running our game, ruining Scottish football.

this all day long
Scottish Football is a world wide joke… thank fekk for the famous and the impressive journey of the past 12yrs, or it would be an even bigger joke…

 

[Bangersbc]

Good post. A lot of hard work put into that. The problem though is it still means just 2 teams playing for the title with the rest just making up the numbers. Its boring, predictable and embarrassing.

We need to share the income more evenly.

I think a larger top league would inevitably lead to closer top flight league tables. Take hearts for example. They are clear best of the rest right now, and able to generate good runs against the rest (insane defensive crisis worse than ours aside). Right now there face the old firm 8 times within a year. That's a whopping 21% (8/38) of all games in the domestic calender they are strong underdogs. It's not quite waving goodbye to 24 points, but the bookies would tell you it basically is. It's a big part of the massive points gap between 2nd and 3rd seen annually.

Playing just 4 times against old firm opposition effectively halves this gulf. Any 'upsets' where hearts (or another team hoping to push for the title) and suddenly it is game on, especially when you consider your Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen would expect to drop points much less often when having runs of games against the likes of Queens Park, Ayr, Morton, Partick Thistle, enabling multiple teams to make title challenges simultaneously. I feel this would also help to reinvigorate the support of some of these clubs, and hopefully lead to them playing more expansive and positive football. This in turn might lead to a greatly improved TV deal in the long-run, as it starts to become clear there are more than 4 important games a season in our league year (sky's current opinion).

For those questioning is a top flight should have such fodder teams, you will acknowledge that the EPL has plenty of poor quality teams appearing regularly (relatively speaking). But also, our tiny top league has lead to a system where almost all teams have been relegated at some time since the turn of the millennium. The fact that we had top flight seasons without any representation of Edinburgh Clubs and/or Dundee clubs is insane frankly. And whilst the Queen's Park's, Ayr's, and Morton's of the world would be there on merit this year, with relegation/promotion we'd see regular involvement of other historic clubs such as Falkirk, Dunfermline, Hamilton (all who have been in the SPL in recent years anyway) as well as some interesting newer clubs with big potential like FC Edinburgh and Cove Rangers. All would massively benefit from the benefits of being in the SPL, which some of the big historic clubs are suffering badly from being locked out of.

18-14-14. One day I hope.

 

[Mason Boyne]

It really doesnt. You're not going to get fans of the 4 Angus teams following Angus Athletic. They'd simply walk away from football.

If the EPL offered Rangers and Celtic the option of joining on the condition that they join as Glasgow United, are you supporting the new bastard offspring?

Merging clubs is a bonkers notion put forward by fans of big teams who can't understand that supporters of smaller clubs love their sides as much as a big team fan loves theirs. It's a nonsense idea and should be thrown in the bin.

Community clubs can keep football affordable and accessible to people who would otherwise be unable to follow football as a live spectacle on a Saturday afternoon. There's also an argument that they're a better way of keeping people playing the game. They give youngsters rejected by top flight youth sides a 2nd chance at professional football.

I once met 4 ex Inverness Thistle fans at hospitality at Ibrox. They didn’t go back after the merger with Caley and started following Rangers. They reckoned the new set up was basically Inverness Caley. I wonder what the Caley side thought.

 

[Noddy]

It’s not personal, I just can’t stand socialist let’s all be equally shite ideas.

If you’ve watched us recently I wouldn’t waste your money on us scoring 5 or 6.

We might not win 5 or 6 but we are 28 points clear of St Johnstone. Our league is a two horse bore and everybody knows it.

 

[King Richard Gough]

We might not win 5 or 6 but we are 28 points clear of St Johnstone. Our league is a two horse bore and everybody knows it.

And making everyone equally poor will not improve the standard, only manufacture a race with poor quality all round.

 

[vicbex]

I think a larger top league would inevitably lead to closer top flight league tables. Take hearts for example. They are clear best of the rest right now, and able to generate good runs against the rest (insane defensive crisis worse than ours aside). Right now there face the old firm 8 times within a year. That's a whopping 21% (8/38) of all games in the domestic calender they are strong underdogs. It's not quite waving goodbye to 24 points, but the bookies would tell you it basically is. It's a big part of the massive points gap between 2nd and 3rd seen annually.

Playing just 4 times against old firm opposition effectively halves this gulf. Any 'upsets' where hearts (or another team hoping to push for the title) and suddenly it is game on, especially when you consider your Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen would expect to drop points much less often when having runs of games against the likes of Queens Park, Ayr, Morton, Partick Thistle, enabling multiple teams to make title challenges simultaneously. I feel this would also help to reinvigorate the support of some of these clubs, and hopefully lead to them playing more expansive and positive football. This in turn might lead to a greatly improved TV deal in the long-run, as it starts to become clear there are more than 4 important games a season in our league year (sky's current opinion).

For those questioning is a top flight should have such fodder teams, you will acknowledge that the EPL has plenty of poor quality teams appearing regularly (relatively speaking). But also, our tiny top league has lead to a system where almost all teams have been relegated at some time since the turn of the millennium. The fact that we had top flight seasons without any representation of Edinburgh Clubs and/or Dundee clubs is insane frankly. And whilst the Queen's Park's, Ayr's, and Morton's of the world would be there on merit this year, with relegation/promotion we'd see regular involvement of other historic clubs such as Falkirk, Dunfermline, Hamilton (all who have been in the SPL in recent years anyway) as well as some interesting newer clubs with big potential like FC Edinburgh and Cove Rangers. All would massively benefit from the benefits of being in the SPL, which some of the big historic clubs are suffering badly from being locked out of.

18-14-14. One day I hope.

18 14 14 is better but you've still got the problem of lack of competition caused by the way money is distributed.

 

[Bangersbc]

18 14 14 is better but you've still got the problem of lack of competition caused by the way money is distributed.

Aye, but a problem that is probably just as hard if not harder to fix. With a larger, closer league though, it's likely that we would see more variation in who finishes where and mixes things up financially in the longer term.

Some of the second tier Scottish teams in Europe (hearts, Hibs, Dundee Utd, at Johnstone, Aberdeen, Motherwell etc) would also benefit from the greater financial security that comes with the decreased risk of relegation (the relegations of some of these teams caused long lasting damage to their squads, fanbases and finances).

And whilst we may not see change in how the money is split, we would hopefully see a long-term increase in revenue from:

- closer top tier title races regularly involving more than the same two teams leading to increased turnstile numbers and TV interest.
- increased interest in 2nd and 3rd tiers driving increased revenue (both turnstile, TV and eventually sponsorship) due to presence of old firm colts within the league and the large interest potential this holds.

Not a bigger chunk of the pie each, but a bigger pie to be shared hopefully.

 

[DM55]

I have to disagree with the premise of the post to be honest, Scottish football needs fewer not more professional football teams.

There should be two leagues of 18 at a professional level.

Darvel are doing well because they are spending a lot of money relative to other junior teams and the recent reorg of the system is better at opening a pathway, albeit I do agree the play off games are BSa, after a long season a successful team can lose out to a serial failure just because of one performance and that isn't good enough.

Darvel had a chance last year to enter the lowland league and finished short but look likely to get another chance. From there they can ofcourse progress to the SPFL 3rd division.

 

[DM55]

18 14 14 is better but you've still got the problem of lack of competition caused by the way money is distributed.

That would see 4 more teams enter the SPFL not for me

 

[TurnTheTide]

I think a logical next step to reorganisation would be to have a 14 team top tier.

Split after everyone plays home and away (26 games) into top 6 and bottom 8. Then each set plays each other home and away again - bottom set play 40 games, which is a lot but only 2 more than currently and still less than lower league in England.

Each “half” of the split then plays the same fixtures. Still get the four OF games for the TV deal. Fresh teams every season - could have 3 up and three down, or two and a playoff.

 

[blueballsbear]

I don’t know why this is being debated
The other teams on top flight want their potential 2 old firm sellout games a season, and therefore would not vote to have that reduced to 1.
Our magnificent telly deal also wants 4 old firm games a season minimum, and would likely reduce the coin substantially in this scenario

 

[Alan1965]

The split's a disaster. Every year we, and most likely, other teams fans moan about it, so let's do away with it.
The argument about having more teams in the league and therefore some teams would vote against having us and them visit only once, would be countered by the teams that could be relegated, and the teams in the Championship that currently have none of us coming to visit.
I also agree that the idiots on the 6th floor at Hampden should be out of a job and get people in that can run and market the league properly.
And sky should be told it's not them that's running Scottish football.
And finally, can we get summer football please?

 

[Noddy]

I don’t know why this is being debated
The other teams on top flight want their potential 2 old firm sellout games a season, and therefore would not vote to have that reduced to 1.
Our magnificent telly deal also wants 4 old firm games a season minimum, and would likely reduce the coin substantially in this scenario

Well that's nonsense when Killie, Motherwell, Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen only give the Old Firm one stand.

 

[Noddy]

And making everyone equally poor will not improve the standard, only manufacture a race with poor quality all round.

Who knows, maybe Scottish teams could start bringing through Scottish youngsters and coach them properly.

 

[King Richard Gough]

Who knows, maybe Scottish teams could start bringing through Scottish youngsters and coach them properly.

Like or not the modern game is all about money. A league full of young home grown players will be Welsh or Irish league level.

Us and then find it difficult enough to compete without handicapping ourselves further to try and prop up other clubs.

Neither club is a charity and has no obligation nor should they, or will they throw money at other clubs to manufacture a competition.

Ideally a European league set up with different divisions would allow clubs to find their level. Scottish football is awful but making us and them as bad as the rest isn’t the answer to improve it.

 

[Noddy]

Like or not the modern game is all about money. A league full of young home grown players will be Welsh or Irish league level.

Us and then find it difficult enough to compete without handicapping ourselves further to try and prop up other clubs.

Neither club is a charity and has no obligation nor should they, or will they throw money at other clubs to manufacture a competition.

Ideally a European league set up with different divisions would allow clubs to find their level. Scottish football is awful but making us and them as bad as the rest isn’t the answer to improve it.

Would sponsors, Sky/BT and decent players not be interested in a more competitive league? It might take time to grow, but so does every league.

 

[King Richard Gough]

Would sponsors, Sky/BT and decent players not be interested in a more competitive league? It might take time to grow, but so does every league.

I genuinely don’t think they would.

We seem to be confusing competitive with quality. I can have two drunk fat guys fight on a Saturday night. Will the fight be competitive? Probably but it will hardly be a skilled exhibition, and a shit watch.

What you’re proposing is making us and them poorer so we become closer to the rest. That’s not improving the quality.

As I said we’re a business and not a charity. Thankfully we won’t be giving away any more revenue we generate than we currently do anytime soon.

We’re in the middle of yet another transfer window where we are having to scrap around the bargain basement to try and improve. What you are proposing would make that worse still.

I’m interested in Rangers improving, and handicapping ourselves by cutting our revenue to try and improve clubs who hate us is madness to me.

 

[BalooBear]

Any reorganization should start with a clear out at the top. Clowns in suits at Hampden, running our game, ruining Scottish football.

Haven't had time to read the thread, but this is an absolute must.
We've a shower of small time corrupt schysters looking after one team only for the last couple of decades now.
Get those Fulkerson in the bin and we might have a chance, but I'd still prefer to head south.

 

[blueballsbear]

Well that's nonsense when Killie, Motherwell, Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen only give the Old Firm one stand.

Well they will still have more fans in their stadiums on days the old firm roll in than any other during the season wont they?
And what about the rest of the teams in the league?

 

[AndythephotoDr]

Scotland doesn't have 42 professional clubs

Even the championship isn't fully professional

That being said, they could get about 16 clubs with decent fan bases if they merged a few

Dundee/united
Hamilton/Motherwell
Ayr/killie
Caley/county
Aberdeen/cove/peterhead
One central belt team for (livi/Falkirk)
Rangers
Celtic
Partick
Hibs
Hearts
St johnstone
St mirren
Raith/Dunfermline
Montrose/Arbroath/brechin/forfar

If they treated it like that and no pyramid (closed shop) we could actually build a decent product if people bought into it.

But it'll never happen for 2 reason

Fans wouldn't do it
Clubs wouldn't do it

We play in a backwater

I’ve said this many times and I think sadly the only way it could happen is if we went down a new setup where in its first instance it was some sort of franchise system where it would force clubs to adapt or die. I think you would need perhaps to look at areas where there are enough people around to draw a supporters base and find ways to get people of that area to go to new clubs.

I’d go 1 league of 18 pro teams and some sort of pyramid below at an amateur or junior type setup

If teams weren’t to merge you would have to look at teams who may have a decent support but who have maybe been put off with years of lower league football but you would want the regions of scotland with some sort of a team to get behind Fife United, The Borderers etc

It’s all pie in the sky though as we know it would never happen as it’s like turkeys voting for Christmas. I do think part of a solution ongoing would be having a bigger premier league which would allow some more teams a slightly bigger slice of the pie and some home games against the bigger teams as improving their income would go some way to improving the overall quality. Would also give the big teams scope to use young players more in the “easier” games

I hated the old 10 team premier league which was created to try to condense the quality, I wish we could get away from facing the same teams 4 times a year although I’m not adverse to a split. Our football has got awfully stale

 

[Noddy]

Well they will still have more fans in their stadiums on days the old firm roll in than any other during the season wont they?
And what about the rest of the teams in the league?

No, they won't. In a competitive league they'd attract more of the fans who stay away because they know the winner of the league before a ball is kicked. Not just the winner, they know they'll be 30/40/50 points behind the winner. Would you go and watch that season after season if you were a Kilie/Hibs/St Johnstone fan?

 

[Noddy]

I genuinely don’t think they would.

We seem to be confusing competitive with quality. I can have two drunk fat guys fight on a Saturday night. Will the fight be competitive? Probably but it will hardly be a skilled exhibition, and a shit watch.

What you’re proposing is making us and them poorer so we become closer to the rest. That’s not improving the quality.

As I said we’re a business and not a charity. Thankfully we won’t be giving away any more revenue we generate than we currently do anytime soon.

We’re in the middle of yet another transfer window where we are having to scrap around the bargain basement to try and improve. What you are proposing would make that worse still.

I’m interested in Rangers improving, and handicapping ourselves by cutting our revenue to try and improve clubs who hate us is madness to me.

You'd get more revenue through a more attractive, competitive league. It wouldn't happen overnight, but it is possible.

 

[Albertz Loyal]

I’ve said this many times and I think sadly the only way it could happen is if we went down a new setup where in its first instance it was some sort of franchise system where it would force clubs to adapt or die. I think you would need perhaps to look at areas where there are enough people around to draw a supporters base and find ways to get people of that area to go to new clubs.

I’d go 1 league of 18 pro teams and some sort of pyramid below at an amateur or junior type setup

If teams weren’t to merge you would have to look at teams who may have a decent support but who have maybe been put off with years of lower league football but you would want the regions of scotland with some sort of a team to get behind Fife United, The Borderers etc

It’s all pie in the sky though as we know it would never happen as it’s like turkeys voting for Christmas. I do think part of a solution ongoing would be having a bigger premier league which would allow some more teams a slightly bigger slice of the pie and some home games against the bigger teams as improving their income would go some way to improving the overall quality. Would also give the big teams scope to use young players more in the “easier” games

I hated the old 10 team premier league which was created to try to condense the quality, I wish we could get away from facing the same teams 4 times a year although I’m not adverse to a split. Our football has got awfully stale

It's absolutely that only way of we truly wanted to change our game and develop any sort of product that could attract sponsors, tv deals and ultimately better players.

Build a central football academy as well to support young players, give them an education at the same time.

 

[Bangersbc]

I don’t know why this is being debated
The other teams on top flight want their potential 2 old firm sellout games a season, and therefore would not vote to have that reduced to 1.
Our magnificent telly deal also wants 4 old firm games a season minimum, and would likely reduce the coin substantially in this scenario

Can they actually reduce the money? It's pittiful anyway. They don't even show all the games that they could show, seemingly buying the rights to ensure no-one else shows them to provide competition to their EPL coverage. Aside from old firms, our game is not priorities for scheduling.

A larger league, produces a closer league and hopefully more "big games" which the TV companies would start to prioritise.

Time was the teams couldn't vote fast enough to get rid of half of their old firm games, as we remember all to well. It would be some brass neck to claim it now... But we know they would. But with the right sales pitch, you'd like to think they might be responsive and consider the long term benefit and the opportunity to stop the rot that we are clearly seeing.

 

[Semper]

For those defending the current set up suppose, just suppose, the rest of the league decided to do a GIRFUY and went off to do their own thing. How long do you think people would keep turning up at Ibrox & Parkhead?

Think on it. We need more than two for a decent tango

 

[Bangersbc]

That would see 4 more teams enter the SPFL not for me

Not necessarily... It (18-14-14) would just be the most interesting way of organising the top 3 tiers of the wider pyramid system. Voting rights could be limited to the teams who currently have the rights, reduced to the 32 teams in the top two flights, or else we just assume that at least 2 colts (non-voting) would occupy slots within the top 3 tiers, meaning a negligible change in the number of voting clubs.

Our problem is not necessarily the number of teams. There is something quite attractive and unique about the historic diversity of Scottish clubs that would be marketable globally. It is the money available to said teams, and this isn't helped by the financial split between clubs, but the main offender is clearly the money that comes in in the first place - primely through our ridiculously poor TV deal compared globally. A huge reorganisation and rebrand of the national game here could attract some more bidders for the TV rights and drive up the price.

But a larger top league would be a closer top league. My viewing habits: watch every rangers game I physically can. Watch the occasional scum game (usually when a title race starts heating up), and nothing else because they are irrelevant to Rangers's season.

One of the reasons the EPL product is so popular is because, with multiple teams involved annually in the title race (because the league is Franky bigger and naturally fascilities this) a Man U can will not only watch their team play a 3pm Saturday game each week, but have a vested interest in watching Chelsea at 12pm, Liverpool at 5.30pm and even Spurs the next day. All the games are relevent to Man U's season because the title race is closer, and therefore more fans are invested in more games.

You can argue the quality is much better, but that wasn't always the case. The crazy money from international TV deals has turned things crazy, but it was this simple formula and concept of having a good competitive league that started them on that journey to being the most lucrative league in the world.

I know I'd watch a lot more hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen games if I thought they were credibly in a title race with us. And in a top league of 18, where they face (currently) 6 championship level clubs 12 times a year (what they would fancy as a guaranteed 36 points annually) and only face the old firm 4 times (likely dropped only 12 points - and any upset is game on) I think sustained title challenges from outwith the old firm wouldn't just be more likely, but inevitable. And in that case, I'd certainly more more likely watch our rivals play in the SPL than I would switch on an EPL game which (though higher quality at present) is irrelevant to rangers and therefore irrelevent to me. Sad thing is, everything in the current system outwith the old firm is irrelevant to me. With nothing to play for each week, let's face it, a Hibs Vs Aberdeen game is often irrelevent even to their own fans (not the diehards, but certainly the wider fan base they could and should be reaching), therefore the viewership is low.

The predictable annual points gap between 2nd and 3rd each year is so large because old firm challengers play over 20% of league leaves every season against the old firm. That's insane when you think about it isn't it?! But it is this that has killed out league as a competition - other than being a thrilling 2 horse race that 2 clubs are all-in-invested in, whilst the rest barely participate and fans barely spectate.

 

[King Richard Gough]

You'd get more revenue through a more attractive, competitive league. It wouldn't happen overnight, but it is possible.

I just don’t see it.

I don’t see how by making your top two teams poorer you improve your product. As I said there seems to be a confusion between quality and competitiveness.

Anyway it’s not going to happen, so it’s a moot conversation.

 

[Noddy]

I just don’t see it.

I don’t see how by making your top two teams poorer you improve your product. As I said there seems to be a confusion between quality and competitiveness.

Anyway it’s not going to happen, so it’s a moot conversation.

So what's the alternative? Us and them play pass the parcel with the league title until the end of time whilst hoovering up the vast majority of the cash? There's a reason our league is seen as a total joke outside of Scotland and inside it.

 

[King Richard Gough]

So what's the alternative? Us and them play pass the parcel with the league title until the end of time whilst hoovering up the vast majority of the cash? There's a reason our league is seen as a total joke outside of Scotland and inside it.

I’ve already said ideally a European divisional set up, where we would find our level. The new CL and EL formats I think are a step towards that. If that doesn’t happen, then yes strap yourself in for more of the same.

Quite simply though Rangers or them won’t be going with your idea at any point. They have a duty to their shareholders too, and no business is voting to give away more revenue when they are already pushed for cash.

 

[bob1873]

Restructure is essential.

Our national game has been stagnating, and the Darvel guy is right, there are so many obstacles to smaller/newer but ambitious clubs to progressing in our game. Rangers, with all our resources, took 4 years to get from the 4th tier to the 1st tier, and we were lucky we got to skip the pyramid below. These small teams require decades of investments to progress with little to no financial reward for moving up until you reach the top tier.

I'd love to see a reduction in the number of divisions by making them larger it would both allow for more rapid progression for ambitious well run clubs (such as we are slowly but surely seeing with Cove, FC Edinburgh and Kelty), and reduce the monotony of playing the same teams 4 times a year (often in near meaningless ties - let's face it, what does it even matter if you finish 5th or 8th in League 2?!)

My proposal of choice:

Tier 1: 18 teams (34 game season, 2 teams relegated annually)

Tier 2: 14 team (split after 26 games. Top 6 play an additional 10 games - 1st automatic promoted, 2nd-5th in two-legged play-offs for 2nd promotion spot. Bottom 8 play additional 14 games. Bottom 2 relegated.

Tier 3: 14 teams (identical to tier 2. The two relegated side go to the Lowland Highland Leagues. The champions of both of these leagues gain automatic promotion annually).

A league designed to create closer leagues (title challengers in first Tier will only face old form 4 times, not 8), but allow for rapid advancement, increase the number of local derbies, and remove the monotony of playing the same teams all the time. The 46 team system is made with a view also to allow for promotion of Colt sides (e.g. Rangers B, Hearts B, Scum B), although these would be capped at Tier 2.

If it were to start next season you'd see a league format something like this:

Tier 1:
Rangers (old firm derby with...)
Celtic
Hearts (Edinburgh Derby with...)
Hibs
Dundee Utd (Dundee derby with...)
Dundee FC
Ross County (Highland Derby with...)
Inverness
Kilmarnock (Ayrshire Derby with... )
Ayr United
Aberdeen
Greenock Morton
Livingston
Motherwell
Particle Thistle (Glasgow derby with...)
Queens Park
St Johnstone
St Mirren

Tier 2:
Raith Rovers (Fife derby with...)
Dunfermline (or...)
Kelty
Cove Rangers (Aberdeenshire derby with...)
Peterhead
Arbroath (Angus derby with...)
Montrose
Falkirk (Clacks derby with...)
Alloa
Hamilton Accies (Lanarkshire derby with...)
Airdrieonians
FC Edinburgh
Queen of the South
Dumbarton

Tier 3:
Clyde
Stirling Albion
Elgin
Annan
East Fife
Stranraer
Forfar
Stenhousemuir
Albion Rovers
Bonnyrigg Rose
Rangers B
Celtic B
Buckie Thistle
Spartans

This to me looks infinitely more entertaining, and potential for more regular derbies cropping up across the country such as Aberdeen, Fife, Ayrshire, etc. Slightly fewer games also gives more room for the cups, Europe, frozen pitches (and generally less fixture congestion).

Get it done?

That's a decent shout but the TV deals is for 4 Old Firm games and to me the simple reality is there are far too many teams that 'pretend' to be professional clubs. Far too many have 1 man and his dog watching and there needs to be a cull of these teams dropping them to junior or non SPFL status. Not sure how off course.

 

[AndythephotoDr]

Not necessarily... It (18-14-14) would just be the most interesting way of organising the top 3 tiers of the wider pyramid system. Voting rights could be limited to the teams who currently have the rights, reduced to the 32 teams in the top two flights, or else we just assume that at least 2 colts (non-voting) would occupy slots within the top 3 tiers, meaning a negligible change in the number of voting clubs.

Our problem is not necessarily the number of teams. There is something quite attractive and unique about the historic diversity of Scottish clubs that would be marketable globally. It is the money available to said teams, and this isn't helped by the financial split between clubs, but the main offender is clearly the money that comes in in the first place - primely through our ridiculously poor TV deal compared globally. A huge reorganisation and rebrand of the national game here could attract some more bidders for the TV rights and drive up the price.

But a larger top league would be a closer top league. My viewing habits: watch every rangers game I physically can. Watch the occasional scum game (usually when a title race starts heating up), and nothing else because they are irrelevant to Rangers's season.

One of the reasons the EPL product is so popular is because, with multiple teams involved annually in the title race (because the league is Franky bigger and naturally fascilities this) a Man U can will not only watch their team play a 3pm Saturday game each week, but have a vested interest in watching Chelsea at 12pm, Liverpool at 5.30pm and even Spurs the next day. All the games are relevent to Man U's season because the title race is closer, and therefore more fans are invested in more games.

You can argue the quality is much better, but that wasn't always the case. The crazy money from international TV deals has turned things crazy, but it was this simple formula and concept of having a good competitive league that started them on that journey to being the most lucrative league in the world.

I know I'd watch a lot more hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen games if I thought they were credibly in a title race with us. And in a top league of 18, where they face (currently) 6 championship level clubs 12 times a year (what they would fancy as a guaranteed 36 points annually) and only face the old firm 4 times (likely dropped only 12 points - and any upset is game on) I think sustained title challenges from outwith the old firm wouldn't just be more likely, but inevitable. And in that case, I'd certainly more more likely watch our rivals play in the SPL than I would switch on an EPL game which (though higher quality at present) is irrelevant to rangers and therefore irrelevent to me. Sad thing is, everything in the current system outwith the old firm is irrelevant to me. With nothing to play for each week, let's face it, a Hibs Vs Aberdeen game is often irrelevent even to their own fans (not the diehards, but certainly the wider fan base they could and should be reaching), therefore the viewership is low.

The predictable annual points gap between 2nd and 3rd each year is so large because old firm challengers play over 20% of league leaves every season against the old firm. That's insane when you think about it isn't it?! But it is this that has killed out league as a competition - other than being a thrilling 2 horse race that 2 clubs are all-in-invested in, whilst the rest barely participate and fans barely spectate.

Some of the older bears will tell me I’m sure but it used to be just two leagues wasn’t it? Was it two league of 20? I seem to remember we went to 42 teams fairly recently the the grand scheme of the scottish league.

I think maybe on reflection I’d go for two leagues again, one of say 18 teams and the one below with 22 with everyone else below that in a pyramid. I’d also go 2 up 2 down with a third decided by a playoff in both structures. Play each other home and away with the hope that the cups would give you some old firm showdowns. I’d also have a charity shield type game at the start of 5he season with the old firm as a curtain raiser, played in the sunshine hopefully and would get 5he season off with a bang and showcase Scottish football. That should keep broadcasters happy

With the expanded league and reading broadcasters the premier league could easily have a Friday night game, Saturday games, game or games in a Sunday to accommodate European participation and a game on Monday this would also hopefully help get revenue and the spotlight on some of the other teams in the league.

As has been said earlier the other teams won’t improve unless you give the, access to revenue stream and for teams like Morton, Ayr, Falkirk, Dunfermline or whoever it is coming up into that 18 team league visits from the old firm and hopefully a local derby in there too generals income in ticket sales and a full stadium

Let clubs also get the rights to beam back away games, the could tie it in with say an under 18s game of the woman’s team at Ibrox followed by the away match on the screens. Would be a way for Ibrox to get income most weekends, season ticket holder would get in free if they are not at the away game,

The daft rules we have in place in our game stunts club’s ability to make money.

 

[blueballsbear]

That's a decent shout but the TV deals is for 4 Old Firm games and to me the simple reality is there are far too many teams that 'pretend' to be professional clubs. Far too many have 1 man and his dog watching and there needs to be a cull of these teams dropping them to junior or non SPFL status. Not sure how off course.

They are all there on merit, a cull based on fans is simply not possible

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

I once met 4 ex Inverness Thistle fans at hospitality at Ibrox. They didn’t go back after the merger with Caley and started following Rangers. They reckoned the new set up was basically Inverness Caley. I wonder what the Caley side thought.

Their attendances were lower when they weren't doing well and peaked when they were. Nobody has ever managed to back up the idea they lost fans and attendances for the separate clubs was any higher at any time. Their kids would support the more successful local teams, even if they won't.

 

[Noddy]

I’ve already said ideally a European divisional set up, where we would find our level. The new CL and EL formats I think are a step towards that. If that doesn’t happen, then yes strap yourself in for more of the same.

Quite simply though Rangers or them won’t be going with your idea at any point. They have a duty to their shareholders too, and no business is voting to give away more revenue when they are already pushed for cash.

Don't cry (not you personally) about empty stadiums and diddy clubs then. They have absolutely no reason to fork out money to take part in a race that they'll never win, or get close to winning.

 

[bob1873]

They are all there on merit, a cull based on fans is simply not possible

Agreed mate but it’s just a fact that outside of a few hundred people most of them serve no purpose in terms of the professional game

 

[blueballsbear]

Agreed mate but it’s just a fact that outside of a few hundred people most of them serve no purpose in terms of the professional game

Ok so they cull them, what teams get culled and who do you replace them with in the league, that have an acceptable support to you?

What’s your cut off point for the cull 10k? 5k? 3k?

 

[King Richard Gough]

Don't cry (not you personally) about empty stadiums and diddy clubs then. They have absolutely no reason to fork out money to take part in a race that they'll never win, or get close to winning.

Don't cry (not you personally) about empty stadiums and diddy clubs then. They have absolutely no reason to fork out money to take part in a race that they'll never win, or get close to winning.

Don’t think I’m defending the current product in any way, it’s awful.

I just don’t think making the big two poorer is going to help.

It’s a freak set up here that will probably never be solved. The big two are simply too big for the country they play in.

 

[vicbex]

And making everyone equally poor will not improve the standard, only manufacture a race with poor quality all round.

Who knows, maybe Scottish teams could start bringing through Scottish youngsters and coach them properly.

Well said Noddy. How many Scots in our team? As for our Japanese neighbours. Its getting silly now. The EPL is going the same way.

IS this really improving the quality?

 

[Cross Keys Rab]

Less teams mean people walking away from the game. If you were to merge Motherwell, Hamilton, Albion Rovers and Airdrie then the resulting Lanarkshire United would not attract the combined supports of the former 4 clubs.

You'd probably see them getting fewer fans than Motherwell do now.

All that would do is lose three clubs. It doesn’t create an ownership of 4 people putting their money in one club. You’d be lucky if one player made it into the Motherwell squad from those three so you’ve removed 60+ players from the game, made them redundant in effect unless another club gives them a chance. It’s a lot of footballers to go round fewer clubs. Be as well force closing the lower league three and keep Motherwell. The outcome is much the same.

Merging would only work if there were two similar ranked teams and there was an appetite for it between the clubs.

If we had three leagues of 14 and the split we’d go some way to reducing the imbalance to start with. Don’t bother changing the relegation/playoff numbers. 1/1 is fine for a small league but it reduces some of the risk. The money doesn’t change any because it flows from top to bottom now anyway but a couple more clubs get better exposure for sponsorship etc. The prize money is set regardless of how the leagues are structured now.

It’s clear that we’re not going to get gifted money to create a better product so it’s going to have to be the other way about and Scottish football creates a product that is worthy of more money. The real shame is nobody seems to have an appetite for it. They’re all just happy plodding along with what they have and hoping it’ll work itself out.