Smith's 92/93 side vs Advocaat's 99/00 side

Harrogate Bluenose said:
ok, thread all yours. Players play in a team. A bad player looks twice as good if playing beside international superstars.
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Like Dave McPherson?

I'm not even saying he's a bad player. Far from it but he wasn't in the class of Reyna.

I'd be looking at this two ways. Which players could play in both teams for each manager.

Barry Ferguson, Numan, McCann etc could all play in Walters team.

Could McPherson play in Advocaat's? I doubt it very much.
 
Odin1972 said:
10 starts and was well off the pace that season. Incredible player but if we’re talking about that smith side Stevens rarely played in 92/93
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That’s why I omitted him from my team, I think of him & Steven as more Souness guys than Walter guys.

Steven was also done post Marseille.
 
Harrogate Bluenose said:
Stevens hardly kicked a ball in 92-92, are you just saying what players were the best in that squad overall or their performance that year?
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In the hypothetical world where you pick players from two squads 8 years apart, I'm going for the best players that featured in each season. I'm guessing in the hypothetical world they won't be injured.

Stevens broke his foot pre-Euro 1992 which meant he missed the start of the season, came back for a few months and was injured again before the end of the season. He was also impacted for the Euro games where we had the 3 foreigner rule at the time.

In the same respect for the 99/00, Mols and Porrini missed quite big parts of it.
 
erskine bear said:
That’s why I omitted him from my team, I think of him & Steven as more Souness guys than Walter guys.

Steven was also done post Marseille.
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I was surprised looking it up how many games Stevens player in the following season. Played in nearly 40.

Steven played over 40 too. He was never the player he was in 90/91 after returning from France but did contribure in 93/94.

It was never my favourite of the NIAR seasons at all. Everything after the excitement of 92/93 seemed drab with the pitch at Ibrox being a shambles and everything just being "meh"

We won the league 93/94 with 58 points in a 44 game season. Now at the equivalent 3pts for a win in a modern 38 game league, that's not 70 points.

Given the spending power we had and how bad Celtic were in 1993 to only get 58 points that year was grim.


It was all a bit so so...until Brian turned up in 1994.
 
Laudrup1 said:
I was surprised looking it up how many games Stevens player in the following season. Played in nearly 40.

Steven played over 40 too. He was never the player he was in 90/91 after returning from France but did contribure in 93/94.

It was never my favourite of the NIAR seasons at all. Everything after the excitement of 92/93 seemed drab with the pitch at Ibrox being a shambles and everything just being "meh"

We won the league 93/94 with 58 points in a 44 game season. Now at the equivalent 3pts for a win in a modern 38 game league, that's not 70 points.

Given the spending power we had and how bad Celtic were in 1993 to only get 58 points that year was grim.


It was all a bit so so...until Brian turned up in 1994.
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I’m shocked at those appearance numbers, thanks for the info mate. I always had in my head both were effectively gone after 92/93 where they failed to make an impact.
 
Laudrup1 said:
Like Dave McPherson?

I'm not even saying he's a bad player. Far from it but he wasn't in the class of Reyna.

I'd be looking at this two ways. Which players could play in both teams for each manager.

Barry Ferguson, Numan, McCann etc could all play in Walters team.

Could McPherson play in Advocaat's? I doubt it very much.
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Well as John Barnes was the celtic manager in that Season I dont think big Dave would have much to fear at right back unless regi stinker was kidnapped and replaced by another.

Last post this time.

THE 92-93 was cheated out a european final. That team was class and was managed by a manger who never nearly killed us.
 
Harrogate Bluenose said:
Well as John Barnes was the celtic manager in that Season I dont think big Dave would have much to fear at right back unless regi stinker was kidnapped and replaced by another.
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Salihamidzic, Elber, Gonzalez, Lopez and van Nistlerooy would likely have had far more joy though.

Again, Big Sadie wasn't a bad player but he was like Lee McCulloch in 2008. He was a functional player who suited a specific role in a Walter team.

He's not in the class of Reyna.
 
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Harrogate Bluenose said:
THE 92-93 was cheated out a european final. That team was class and was managed by a manger who never nearly killed us.
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Fucking LOL. Are you drinking in the middle of the afternoon or what?

David Murray "nearly killed us"

Advocaat spent a fair bit fixing the shambles Walter left him in 1998 with about 4 players of note on the books.

Let's not pretend that Walters signing policy was much better or worse than Advocaat over his first spell.

For all Dick spend money on Flo, Ball, Amato and Guivarch (£26m) he got £14m of it back.

Rozenthal, Boli, Salenko, Van Vossen...

Both had high highs and some terrbile lows.
 
Glass Onion said:
Pick your starting XI :O

Goram

Gough Amoruso Numan

Reyna B. Ferguson Van Bronckhorst Albertz McCann

McCoist Hateley

Probably the two most iconic teams of my youth. Th early 90s team were an unbelievable unit while the later side arguably had better individual talents. Mols in 1999 was truly special but I couldn't include here in this setup ahead of the McCoist/Hateley partnership.
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Goram

Reyna Gough Bomber Numan

Fergusson Gio

Albertz

Hateley McCoist Mols

Explanatory notes! Moore in that season was as quick and as uncompromising a defender as we have ever had Despite getting hauled off after 35 minutes in one game by an angry Advocaat but I’ve given Bomber the nod because at pittodrie and Celtic park etc he was neccesary. Had to choose between Gough and Amo and as I don’t see this team having backs to the wall Amo Nearly gets the nod but Gough wins out for leadership and lack of blunders. I’m gonna have attacking full backs if this team is playing in Scotland much like our current set up I’m playing Reyna at right back just to accomodate him as he was class personified.

My team doesn’t have much width but that would be up to Numan and Reyna to provide. I’d expect mols to drop deep and on the turn feed McCoist or the full backs. If we go back to front Hately wins everything and knocks on for McCoist or Albertz feeds off second balls.

Caveats: Albertz wasn’t at his absolute best in that season so McCann may be a better option to provide width for Hately in which case he comes in but in place of Mols, Reyna moves into midfield and Porrini goes to right back. Gary Stevens was injured and only played ten games for Smith that season.

ps horrible question!!! Spent half an hour on it!
 
Laudrup1 said:
Fucking LOL. Are you drinking in the middle of the afternoon or what?

David Murray "nearly killed us"

Advocaat spent a fair bit fixing the shambles Walter left him in 1998 with about 4 players of note on the books.

Let's not pretend that Walters signing policy was much better or worse than Advocaat over his first spell.

For all Dick spend money on Flo, Ball, Amato and Guivarch (£26m) he got £14m of it back.

Rozenthal, Boli, Salenko, Van Vossen...

Both had high highs and some terrbile lows.
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Prodan.
 
GovanFront4 said:
Miko was a better player than McCann. McCann had more impact on us over time but Miko was internationally recognised as a superstar.
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Who had more impact for Rangers? Miko was class but slow as a week in the jail, unfit, hardly scored..... Revisionism here.
 
Laudrup1 said:
You put peak Mols in that team and I think we beat Marseille.

The question over Mols is "what if?" and obviously the myth can grow but I firmly believe he'd be in the Laudrup and Gascoigne category if we'd got him without the injury for three years or so.
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More revisionism. You can’t leave McCoist out. He didn’t have that wonderful turn but in modern terms, his numbers, goals and assist were ridiculous... People forget the assists, a better player than he is given credit for. A lot of the younger generation think he sat on his arse in the six yard box.
 
Goldenboot said:
Formation 352
Goalie: Klos
Defence: Amo Gough Moore
Midfield: kanchelskis I. Ferguson B. Ferguson Van bronkhurst Albertz
Strikers: McCoist Mols

Bench:

Goram
Brown
Numan
Amato
De Boer
Hateley
McCann
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Woah!! Klos over Goram. Interesting!! What vintage bear are you? Just out of interest?
 
Harrogate Bluenose said:
4.2 on amato is daft in my book. You cant compare Smith to Advocaat.

Murray lost the plot with Advocaat and we suffered for a decade because of it.

92-93 was the best managed team pound for pound. Best era I have seen and been supporting for 44 years. Not my age.

Again his crazy spending happened when he arrived.
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How much did Walter spend in the summer of 1997?
 
Odin1972 said:
Woah!! Klos over Goram. Interesting!! What vintage bear are you? Just out of interest?
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erskine bear said:
Without de-railing, Murray takes the blame IMO you can’t say “here’s all this money” that you don’t actually have. Nor can you spout the nonsense of “we’re going to spend £10m on a striker”. Prior to 00/01 Dick had seldom wasted money.
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Yeah, I hate this argument! As if the manager should be responsible! If Gerrard asks for £14m to sign a player the boards fiduciary responsibility is to say no. This notion that Advocaat somehow forced the board into the spending is utter nonsense. The little general provided for me the best rangers side I have ever seen. Yes it went tits up but that’s life. Murray was in control of the purse strings, end of.
 
Alex Venters said:
How much did Walter spend in the summer of 1997?
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How much did walter spend in his entire tenure over how many years compared to the wee gerneral?

Also saying walter left advocaat a bad squad and a mess is just pathetic.

the mess of previous season?

Are you referring to missing out in ten in a row by 2 points?

Or maybe the sacking of smith during that season or the allowing of Gazza departure during a title chase.

Aye all smiths fault?


Please stop getting me to bite that smith left your wee dutch general with 4 players. If so how come he won the league and here were the top appearances.

Sergio Porrini 54
Giovanni van Bronckhorst 53
Jörg Albertz 53
Rod Wallace 51
Lorenzo Amoruso 49
Andrei Kanchelskis 45
Barry Ferguson 39
Tony Vidmar 39
Jonatan Johansson 37
Colin Hendry 32
Gabriel Amato 31
Ian Ferguson 26


I could have sworn the above has more than 4 walters signings.

That clown Murray sold Smith down the river and nearly killed our club by bending over for Advocaaat.

PS I love the wee General but comparing the likes of the 92-93 squad is unreal in my book. Especially when the unwashed had John Barnes as manager.

FFS the year ICT knocked them out the cup in the 3rd round.
 
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brain said:
McCoist scored 49 goals that season. I know our standards are high but come on :))
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Top goal scorer in Europe for the second season running. McCoist should be in everyone’s team.

Was that not also the season he also broke his leg and missed the last ten games or so?
 
erskine bear said:
I’m shocked at those appearance numbers, thanks for the info mate. I always had in my head both were effectively gone after 92/93 where they failed to make an impact.
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Trevor Steven definitely contributed in 92/93. He scored the only goal and winner in the New Year game against them in 93.

After 1994, he would never feature as a regular again but was still with us until 1997. He in fact started the day we won 8-in a row in the Gazza game in 1996.
 
I don't think comparing what Walter spent in the early 90s to what Advocaat spent in his tenure is a workable comparison. The transfer market was a very different place in both eras.
 
albertz81 said:
I don't think comparing what Walter spent in the early 90s to what Advocaat spent in his tenure is a workable comparison. The transfer market was a very different place in both eras.
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Aye one was sustainable and one was not. Hence the last decade.
 
Harrogate Bluenose said:
easy, walters full team.
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I agree.

Advocaat’s side were technically far superior and played better football but Walter’s team didn’t know when they were beaten.

IMO 00/01 was actually the peak footballing squad we have ever assembled but they were just soft and brittle with no fight once Celtic had got their act together.
 
Odin1972 said:
Walter’s spending wasn’t sustainable either. Hence paying for your name on your seat, massive loans, Daniel Levy, Dave King.... I can’t say it clearly enough, the blame lies with Murray. No one else.
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I would love to see the accounts then. I was a seat for like member myself as were 3 other members of my family. Was Dave Kings investment before 1998? I thought it was advocaat era myself.
 
Harrogate Bluenose said:
How much did walter spend in his entire tenure over how many years compared to the wee gerneral?

Also saying walter left advocaat a bad squad and a mess is just pathetic.

the mess of previous season?

Are you referring to missing out in ten in a row by 2 points?

Or maybe the sacking of smith during that season or the allowing of Gazza departure during a title chase.

Aye all smiths fault?


Please stop getting me to bite that smith left your wee dutch general with 4 players. If so how come he won the league and here were the top appearances.

Sergio Porrini 54
Giovanni van Bronckhorst 53
Jörg Albertz 53
Rod Wallace 51
Lorenzo Amoruso 49
Andrei Kanchelskis 45
Barry Ferguson 39
Tony Vidmar 39
Jonatan Johansson 37
Colin Hendry 32
Gabriel Amato 31
Ian Ferguson 26


I could have sworn the above has more than 4 walters signings.

That clown Murray sold Smith down the river and nearly killed our club by bending over for Advocaaat.

PS I love the wee General but comparing the likes of the 92-93 squad is unreal in my book. Especially when the unwashed had John Barnes as manager.

FFS the year ICT knocked them out the cup in the 3rd round.
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As opposed to in 92-93 when Celtic finished 3rd and were knocked out of the LC by Falkirk having been taken to a replay in the previous round by Clyde and Liam Brady was in charge with star signing Andy Payton their top scorer with 15 goals?

It seems you can't see past the 92-93 team despite any evidence that suggests the 99 one had better players in some positions at least and most certainly played a nicer (if maybe not actually better) football.

I lived through both of them and remember them fondly. There's no doubt there was class and ability in the 99 team above the 92 one in certain positions though.
 
Harrogate Bluenose said:
I would love to see the accounts then. I was a seat for like member myself as were 3 other members of my family. Was Dave Kings investment before 1998? I thought it was advocaat era myself.
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King invested in 2000. Check the accounts, he was covering an existing overdraft facility. Either way, I’m not sure how you can blame the manager who should be given a budget and told to work under it. You are suggesting Advocaat was in charge of the clubs finances. Anyway this thread as usual has been completely derailed by vested interests.
 
Laudrup1 said:
As opposed to in 92-93 when Celtic finished 3rd and were knocked out of the LC by Falkirk having been taken to a replay in the previous round by Clyde and Liam Brady was in charge with star signing Andy Payton their top scorer with 15 goals?

It seems you can't see past the 92-93 team despite any evidence that suggests the 99 one had better players in some positions at least and most certainly played a nicer (if maybe not actually better) football.

I lived through both of them and remember them fondly. There's no doubt there was class and ability in the 99 team above the 92 one in certain positions though.
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No m8 I cant , comparing Advocaat team with some are creaming themselves against well regi stinker and Barnes as Manager is not a benchmark

Are we going to look at what that team did in Europe for a fair comparison then? ;-)
 
Odin1972 said:
King invested in 2000. Check the accounts, he was covering an existing overdraft facility. Either way, I’m not sure how you can blame the manager who should be given a budget and told to work under it. You are suggesting Advocaat was in charge of the clubs finances. Anyway this thread as usual has been completely derailed by vested interests.
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So it was bankrolled for Advocaat that makes sense.
 
Harrogate Bluenose said:
No m8 I cant , comparing Advocaat team with some are creaming themselves against well regi stinker and Barnes as Manager is not a benchmark

Are we going to look at what that team did in Europe for a fair comparison then? ;-)
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Advocaat regained European respect after numerous embarrassments under Smith, 92/93 aside.
 
Harrogate Bluenose said:
No m8 I cant , comparing Advocaat team with some are creaming themselves against well regi stinker and Barnes as Manager is not a benchmark

Are we going to look at what that team did in Europe for a fair comparison then? ;-)
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As far as I see it both teams failed to get out of a CL group by a baw hair.

The 99 CL against Bayern, Valencie and PSV was far tougher than the Marseille, CSKA and Brugge one.

You need reminded that Liam Brady was in charge of Celtic in 92-93 and there team was generally along the lines of Pat Bonnar, Derek Whyte, Gary Gillespie, Tony Mowbray, Steve Fulton, McStay, Galloway, Stuart Slater, Joe Miller, Gerry Creaney and Tommy Coyne?
 
Goram
Porrini Gough Amo Robertson
Reyna Barry Gio Albertz
McCoist Hateley​

Subs
Klos
Moore
Fergie
Wallace
McCann

Toss up between Moore and McPherson for the defence substitute slot

Fergie over McCall and Durrant on the bench because it's Fergie and I'm in a Fergie mood today. Tomorrow it might be McCall or Durrant.

I'm taking the easy option and ruling Mols out through injury so Wallace makes my bench.

McCann over Huistra and Miko because I loved Huistra and Miko but love Neil more.

An absolute scandal that I've left out Numan completely, but what can I say? It ain't an easy gig. :D

Interestingly (to me anyway) I have a 100% Smith attack, 100% Advocaat midfield, and 50/50 Walter/Dick defence (I realise Walter signed Porrini, Amo, Albertz, and Barry came from Walter's brood but they represent Advicaat's team here).
 
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Johnny Yen said:
Great arguments could be had here, has to be said though, Walters side came within a goal of a Champions League final and went 10 games undefeated in the competition, wee Dicks team couldn’t make it out the group stage, although he had some wonderful players.
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The format changed drastically between 92 and 99.
 
erskine bear said:
To significantly better teams, Walter struggled to make Europe after 92/93 and when did we were embarrassed. It’s the reason he was sacked.
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and we are comparing the 92/93 achievements when we won the battle of britain and cheated out a euro final against a team that never saw europe after xmas are we not?
 
lwl said:
Goram
Porrini Gough Amo Robertson
Reyna Barry Gio Albertz
McCoist Hateley

Subs
Klos
Moore
Fergie
Wallace
McCann

Toss up between Moore and McPherson for the defence substitute slot

Fergie over McCall and Durrant on the bench because it's Fergie and I'm in a Fergie mood today. Tomorrow it might be McCall or Durrant.

I'm taking the easy option and ruling Mols out through injury so Wallace makes my bench.

McCann over Huistra and Miko because I loved Huistra and Miko but love Neil more.
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Wrong thread mate. This has became the Walter Smith/Dick Advocatt argument thread :))
 
Harrogate Bluenose said:
and we are comparing the 92/93 achievements when we won the battle of britain and cheated out a euro final against a team that never saw europe after xmas are we not?
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Battle of Britain against a team who avoided relegation by a few points in 92/93 ;)

Against a team who were cheated out of Europe post Christmas by the runners up from the season before, the runners up that season and the runners up the following season.....


EDIT: sorry, Leeds avoided relegation by two points in 92/93. Not three as I previously suggested.
 
Goram
Gough Amoruso Brown
B.Ferguson McCall Fergie Van Bronckhorst Albertz
McCoist Hateley

My view is despite none of those midfielders being explict Left/Right sided midfielders, and having no fullbacks, the quality there would ensure that we won the ball, held on to the ball, and got the ball forward no matter what.
 
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