The cost of failure (Man City)

Zidane, Ancelotti and Paisley are the only managers to have won the European Cup 3 times, however it is debatable that they are the best 3 European club managers since the European Cup began. You certainly have to take into account other tournaments managers have won, in particular national leagues.
 
Frank Burnside said:
With reports today that Man City are ready "to spend big" after yet another failure to win the Champions League - which was the sole reason Pep was brought to the club, I was curious how much failure costs.

The answer is £773,679,000. That's how much Pep has spent on players during his 5 seasons, add in agents fee and all the youth players they've snapped up for "undisclosed" fees and you'll looking at close to a BILLION pounds. And of course wages on top of that, but I suppose that depends whether they were payed by City or by one of the owners many companies.

Not bad going to be in the exact same position as they were before Pep took over.
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Where does this leave the Fair play regulations with these super rich clubs?
 
RodVegas said:
He's absolutely failed. At Bayern and City. Most overhyped manager on the planet. I could have won the CL with that Barcelona team.
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And the retard of the day award goes to...

BTW when he took over at Barca they'd just finished 3rd/4th in the league. He arrived and had a clear out of guys like Ronaldinho, Eto'o, Deco.

Put his faith in La Masia graduates and created the best club side the world's ever seen.
 
There is a difference between a super club n a super rich club.
Mediocre clubs with rich owners. Fkn hate Man C etc.
 
Steelshanks Walton said:
Not a fan of City at all but to be fair have Man Utd not spent similar amounts recently to win only a league cup and a Europa League.

And to have the pleasure of having OGS as there manager
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The only person who seems to get slaughtered for spending money is Pep Guardiola.

We know City have spent a lot of money, but it's not as if they're doing that whilst the rest of the clubs are scraping together £20 for players. They're all spending hundreds of millions fs.
 
I think City should get rid of him maybe their fans would laugh at that ofcourse its their view thats important thats all the matters.

He plays nice stuff, has done ok overall but tactically i wonder if hes got any... it was obvious Chelsea would beat them and probably will next season too.

Hes a bit like Keegan i think with a much greater advantage over the rest of the sides, yes he won it ofcourse thats the difference i dont think he will again though. Next season could be tough and his chance of CL with City seems to have gone.

Liverpool will be much stronger id guess, and if Man Utd or even Arsenal go find a good manager which they should have done a while back, they could take over City too...Chelsea can beat them every day of the week if they fancy it. Maybe hes thinking of bolting he seems a clever guy it would be the right time to get out head for Italy, America, Russia find the next club that has a huge advantage over the rest of the clubs and cash in again.
 
City are utter bastards. Able to pay their way and account for every single penny. Football is rotten to the core with that shower.
Why can’t they be like United, the ‘Pool, Barca and Real and accrue hundreds of millions of debt and spend umpteen zillions more on players without anybody questioning it.
I mean ,god help any of these those clubs if UEFA ever go down the financial fair play route and actually implement it properly.
 
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This smooth brained idea that Pep is only hired to win the Champions League is one of the biggest misnomers in football. He was hired to win Trophies. He's delivered that for City as he did previously for Bayern and Barca. He wasn't hired just to deliver Champions League titles. They also extended his contract a while back, I'm sure they are utterly devastated to only win 3 of the last available 5 league titles. The way City are set up, they could dominate English football for the next decade and they've got the resources to achieve that.

Honestly some of the shite you read on here is amazing. We out spent most clubs in the UK in the early 90s and had a free hit at the European Cup/Champions League. Is Walter a fraud for only winning domestic trophies and failing to win a European trophy?
 
dt17 said:
And the retard of the day award goes to...

BTW when he took over at Barca they'd just finished 3rd/4th in the league. He arrived and had a clear out of guys like Ronaldinho, Eto'o, Deco.

Put his faith in La Masia graduates and created the best club side the world's ever seen.
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Why's he a 'retard' exactly?

Its just weird how wound up in defence of precious Pep folk get when this subject comes up.
 
Thornliebank_Bear said:
I think City should get rid of him maybe their fans would laugh at that ofcourse its their view thats important thats all the matters.

He plays nice stuff, has done ok overall but tactically i wonder if hes got any... it was obvious Chelsea would beat them and probably will next season too.

Hes a bit like Keegan i think with a much greater advantage over the rest of the sides, yes he won it ofcourse thats the difference i dont think he will again though. Next season could be tough and his chance of CL with City seems to have gone.

Liverpool will be much stronger id guess, and if Man Utd or even Arsenal go find a good manager which they should have done a while back, they could take over City too...Chelsea can beat them every day of the week if they fancy it. Maybe hes thinking of bolting he seems a clever guy it would be the right time to get out head for Italy, America, Russia find the next club that has a huge advantage over the rest of the clubs and cash in again.
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You must be trolling?

"he's done ok"...putting it lightly.

Chelsea finished 4th in the league so that's one thing. Man Utd have never finished above Man City since Fergie retired and do you really think that's going to change with Ole in charge? Even mentioning Arsenal who are basically a mid table club now, deary me.

OnTheWay said:
Why's he a 'retard' exactly?

Its just weird how wound up in defence of precious Pep folk get when this subject comes up.
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He thinks he would've done the same job as Pep when he took over at Barca. That's why.
 
ronadamus_prime said:
This smooth brained idea that Pep is only hired to win the Champions League is one of the biggest misnomers in football. He was hired to win Trophies. He's delivered that for City as he did previously for Bayern and Barca. He wasn't hired just to deliver Champions League titles. They also extended his contract a while back, I'm sure they are utterly devastated to only win 3 of the last available 5 league titles. The way City are set up, they could dominate English football for the next decade and they've got the resources to achieve that.

Honestly some of the shite you read on here is amazing. We out spent most clubs in the UK in the early 90s and had a free hit at the European Cup/Champions League. Is Walter a fraud for only winning domestic trophies and failing to win a European trophy?
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Yep they could a lot of us are saying because of the manager they wont.

And the point about walter, obviously before your time which is fair enough, walter got slaughtered for results in europe we lost to some absolute crap.

A bit of an odd point to make some people do lose their discipline at any mention of Pep being overrated though.

And dt17 i said if Man Utd or Arsenal change manager you have dived in fizzin and not read it properly.
 
Man Utd should let ole go and get Conte signed up before Spurs(he probably wont agree terms with them anyway).

That would be 3 clubs with better tactics than City and the squad to better them next season.
 
dt17 said:
He thinks he would've done the same job as Pep when he took over at Barca. That's why.
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Do you honestly, deep down, think he was serious? If so, it's no him that's the retard pal.

Haha it's incredible how wound up his cult get when the enemy of the cult dare criticise or make fun of the great leader. Got a Sturgeon/Trump cult feel to it.
 
Thornliebank_Bear said:
Yep they could a lot of us are saying because of the manager they wont.

And the point about walter, obviously before your time which is fair enough, walter got slaughtered for results in europe we lost to some absolute crap.

A bit of an odd point to make some people do lose their discipline at any mention of Pep being overrated though.

And dt17 i said if Man Utd or Arsenal change manager you have dived in fizzin and not read it properly.
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How is winning 3 of the last 5 Premier League titles, not considered dominance? That's fairly a dominant ratio in his five seasons in charge so far? They are hotly tipped to win the league again next season as well.

Can I ask what you are basing this on? His current inability to guarantee a trophy win, in the toughest club cup competition on the planet? How does that have any bearing on Pep's ability to win Premier League titles at Manchester City?

He's been managing there for the last 5 years and he's won 8 major domestic trophies, his first title win at City, he won it by a record breaking 100 points. His second league winning campaign, he won both cups alongside it, securing a treble. His third Premier League title win, he narrowly lost the Champions League final in the same season. A staggering amount of the evidence points to success, or have you got anything more tangible to counter that?

Arsenal haven't won a Premier League Title in 17 years. Haven't been considered amongst the favourites in about a decade. Manchester United you could make a case for but they have consistently struggled since Sir Alex Ferguson left. They hired Jose Mourinho two seasons after he won the title at Chelsea and they still didn't manage to win the title.

The Walter point was simply to underline how utterly ridiculous it was to deem Pep's 5 years in charge at City a failure. OP is basically judging him by one metric and discarding domestic success entirely. I decided to apply the same lens of thinking to one of our own club legends and highlight the folly of his point. I could do the same thing with Antonio Conte, he's brilliant at winning domestic titles but utterly pish at doing anything in Europe. Built one of the most formidable Juve sides in decades and couldn't even get past the quarter finals. Conte's record in the Champions League proper with all sides managed, is as follows 12 victories, 11 draws and 11 defeats.
 
Frank Burnside said:
With reports today that Man City are ready "to spend big" after yet another failure to win the Champions League - which was the sole reason Pep was brought to the club, I was curious how much failure costs.

The answer is £773,679,000. That's how much Pep has spent on players during his 5 seasons, add in agents fee and all the youth players they've snapped up for "undisclosed" fees and you'll looking at close to a BILLION pounds. And of course wages on top of that, but I suppose that depends whether they were payed by City or by one of the owners many companies.

Not bad going to be in the exact same position as they were before Pep took over.
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I read the other day that the City Group is now valued at $5 Billion, so I’m pretty sure the owners will be delighted.
 
ronadamus_prime said:
Apparently believing Pep Guardiola is one of the best managers in the world, now means you've been brain washed.

Follow Follow, one of the few football forums in the world, where you will see a thread with the title 'Do you watch any other football, other than our games?'...
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Failure after delivering their first title in three years, 3/5 titles, doubles, a treble, add in the community shields and runner up in CL which going by this thread some seem to think is easy to win. Then you get to how they play and have improved, the youth system improving around it as well I’d imagine.

Hope Gerrard leads us to this level of failure
 
ronadamus_prime said:
Apparently believing Pep Guardiola is one of the best managers in the world, now means you've been brain washed.
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Naw, I just thought 'cult' genuinely sounded more apt considering we're talking about grown men fanboys who take it personally when someone doesn't share their God-like view of the Pep.
 
OnTheWay said:
Naw, I just thought 'cult' genuinely sounded more apt considering we're talking about grown men fanboys who take it personally when someone doesn't share their God-like view of the Pep.
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I just think it's utterly ridiculous that some people look at the body of work of a manager, such as Pep Guardiola's and come away with totally uninformed opinions based on emotive reasoning. If that's failure, then I'm going to have to question what people consider success to be.

People are entitled to their opinion, but when you post a thread with a provocative title like OP did, then expect people to scrutinise your opinion. I haven't seen anyone fanboy over him at all. Only people scrutinising OP's opinion. Which is not the same thing.

I can think of areas where Pep Guardiola deserves legit criticism, but to deem him a failure at Manchester City is ludicrous imo.
 
ronadamus_prime said:
I just think it's utterly ridiculous that some people look at the body of work of a manager, such as Pep Guardiola's and come away with totally uninformed opinions based on emotive reasoning. If that's failure, then I'm going to have to question what people consider success to be.

People are entitled to their opinion, but when you post a thread with a provocative title like OP did, then expect people to scrutinise your opinion. I haven't seen anyone fanboy over him at all. Only people scrutinising OP's opinion. Which is not the same thing.

I can think of areas where Pep Guardiola deserves legit criticism, but to deem him a failure at Manchester City is ludicrous imo.
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What are these totally, uninformed opinions exactly? Uninformed? Really? Pep was brought in to win the CL, with his talents and unlimited resources, they seemingly operate different from everyone else, the league titles and cups were effectively a given over the long run. Its 5 years and a half billion net spend later and they still haven't reached the holy grail and its mostly down to his own mind boggling decisions pre-kick off. So in that respect, yes, he has failed. He was the one that messed up the team on Saturday night and cost them dearly, just as he did against Spurs 2 seasons ago and Lyon(?) last season.

Rodgers was hailed as some football genius up here as well when in reality he was just a good coach in a league of shit coaches who he also vastly outspent while also vastly underachieving in Europe, was also brought in to do well in europe funnily enough.
 
Frank Burnside said:
With reports today that Man City are ready "to spend big" after yet another failure to win the Champions League - which was the sole reason Pep was brought to the club, I was curious how much failure costs.

The answer is £773,679,000. That's how much Pep has spent on players during his 5 seasons, add in agents fee and all the youth players they've snapped up for "undisclosed" fees and you'll looking at close to a BILLION pounds. And of course wages on top of that, but I suppose that depends whether they were payed by City or by one of the owners many companies.

Not bad going to be in the exact same position as they were before Pep took over.
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When you consider that the amount of money that has been put into Man City is about the same as has been taken out of Man Utd by the Glaziers it's not surprising the fortunes of the two clubs have reversed. Also important to note Man City failing to win the CL is an unsuccessful season but Man Utd are happy being second in the league to the smaller team from their own city. When I look at what has happened to Man Utd I can only thank the four Bears from saving us from the spivs.
 
OnTheWay said:
What are these totally, uninformed opinions exactly? Uninformed? Really? Pep was brought in to win the CL, with his talents and unlimited resources, they seemingly operate different from everyone else, the league titles and cups were effectively a given over the long run. Its 5 years and a half billion net spend later and they still haven't reached the holy grail and its mostly down to his own mind boggling decisions pre-kick off. So in that respect, yes, he has failed. He was the one that messed up the team on Saturday night and cost them dearly, just as he did against Spurs 2 seasons ago and Lyon(?) last season.

Rodgers was hailed as some football genius up here as well when in reality he was just a good coach in a league of shit coaches who he also vastly outspent while also vastly underachieving in Europe, was also brought in to do well in europe funnily enough.
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Uninformed in the sense that you look at things entirely from one angle and fail to consider any other factors.

If you think Pep was brought in to solely win the Champions League then I don't know what to tell you. I disagree with that notion entirely. Hence I disagreed with the entire premise of OP's post. I don't think anyone ever gets tasked with winning a Champions League title as their sole remit. Sure the press can speculate that to be the case, but it's simply not. If his remit was simply to win the Champions League then why have they persisted with him and gave him a new contract? Why did Bayern wish to extend his contract beyond his initial time there as well?

He's won 3 Premier League titles in a very short amount of time there, how is that a failure? Particularly in a league awash with money with several potential title challengers, you cannot call that a given, not even slightly. Klopp and Conte are the only two managers who have bested him in his time in the Premier League, think we'd both agree that they are World Class managers. So in what sense was it a given they should win the League? Prior to Pep's arrival they had only won 2 Premier League titles in total.

They've spent massively, so much so, that they basically have two teams worth of players that could feasibly compete in any competition and win it. That's purely looking at things on paper though. In the time City have spent this money, Manchester United, Barca, Real, Juve, PSG, Chelsea and Bayern have all spent massive amounts of money on wages and transfer fees as well. So lets not kid ourselves on here that Manchester City have had a free hit at the Champions League since Pep arrived. They haven't. I agree he's absolutely contributed to their shortcomings in Europe in his time there by making baffling tactical decisions in the knock out stages of the CL but you cannot completely dismiss his domestic success. I can comfortably say he's failed in one metric of his job and that's only so far. If he wins the Champions League next season, is it still a failure?

I would fully understand the Pep's a failure because he hasn't won the Champions League with Manchester City argument. If the last 5 Champions League titles had been won at least once by a side who had fluked their way to winning it. That's not the case though. Real Madrid, Liverpool, Bayern Munich and Chelsea are all very good teams. It's the best club cup competition in the world for a reason and it's very difficult to win it. Hence the achievements by the likes of Guardiola, Zidane, Mourinho, Ancelotti and Sir Alex Ferguson are so revered because they won it multiple times throughout their careers.
 
OnTheWay said:
Do you honestly, deep down, think he was serious? If so, it's no him that's the retard pal.

Haha it's incredible how wound up his cult get when the enemy of the cult dare criticise or make fun of the great leader. Got a Sturgeon/Trump cult feel to it.
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Going on about a cult?

I sit on the opposite side of some people in thinking that Guardiola is obviously a top manager. His record speaks for itself tbh.

The arguments you hear against it are where the laughs come in though. "Aye but could he win the league with a mid table side like Wolves", well no...but I doubt any manager in England could.

"He's a fraud because he spends money" - again, so does every big club.

Sometimes I think he tries to be too clever with his team selection/tactics. But his trophy haul is as good as it gets really.

Sir Alex often spent more than the rest of English football yet he 'only' won two Champions League titles. Was he a failure?

Worth noting as well - just about every player who plays under him develops into a much better player.
 
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instructor said:
So this season alone City are the champions of England and won the League cup, hardly a failure of a season. Pep has been at the helm for 3 league titles in 5 years and several cups so this is success. The Champions League is hard to win and they reached the final, the best they have ever done. No doubt the owners want to win the Champions League, however it is a cup competition and to be the champions of your country is the most important thing. City hadn't won the league title for a few years before Pep took over. I do agree, however, with some pundits who believe he over thinks his tactics for some of the big games, not playing a holding midfielder or a centre forward in the final was an error.
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Errors you don't expect a highly rewarded, top manager to make and to repeat.
Too many excuses are made for him.
 
Frank Burnside said:
Yes he has. He was hired explicitly to win the Champions League, he has failed to do so - including being knocked out by teams with a fraction of his budget. They were winning league titles & domestic trophies and failing in europe under Mancini & Pellegrini. Not much has changed, except the football is a bit easier on the eye.
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Wigan beat them in the FA Cup final ffs.

Lots of failures given the dosh they've spent!
 
Colinrfc2 said:
He was brought in to win the champions league, he has failed to do it
You don't bring him and spend fortunes just to win domestically
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Rangers did, but our ultimate aim was to win the European Cup/ Champions League under Holmes and Murray, does that make Souness, Smith and Advocaat failures.
 
Hes spent the best part of a billion pounds and not won, one of the only 2 trophies that matter to City. Is he a failure? I wouldnt say its as simple as that, hes helped cement them as the main domestic power in England. Hes achieved the domestic portion of his remit.

That said, i cant believe the number of people who seem to just shrug their shoulders as though, it doesnt matter hes spent nearly a billion and not achieved his main aim. The money he has spent is absolutely staggering. Id have expected far more to show in Europe than 1 final and 1 semi, in 5 seasons. In regards to his European objectives, he has been a failure.
 
Johansen said:
Rangers did, but our ultimate aim was to win the European Cup/ Champions League under Holmes and Murray, does that make Souness, Smith and Advocaat failures.
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No City are spending obscene amounts of money, putting themselves up there with the other elite and super rich clubs like PSG, Bayern, Juve, Real, etc.
While we outspent Celtic and Dundee United we weren’t spending at the level of teams like AC Milan or Man U. We should have done better in Europe in the 90s. I thought we did pretty well with Advocaat but they ended in glorious failures. Again the gulf was increasing with the top clubs and we more than held our own. A little more luck and we could have cruised through (was it Bayern we out played and still lost?).
 
ronadamus_prime said:
Uninformed in the sense that you look at things entirely from one angle and fail to consider any other factors.

If you think Pep was brought in to solely win the Champions League then I don't know what to tell you. I disagree with that notion entirely. Hence I disagreed with the entire premise of OP's post. I don't think anyone ever gets tasked with winning a Champions League title as their sole remit. Sure the press can speculate that to be the case, but it's simply not. If his remit was simply to win the Champions League then why have they persisted with him and gave him a new contract? Why did Bayern wish to extend his contract beyond his initial time there as well?

He's won 3 Premier League titles in a very short amount of time there, how is that a failure? Particularly in a league awash with money with several potential title challengers, you cannot call that a given, not even slightly. Klopp and Conte are the only two managers who have bested him in his time in the Premier League, think we'd both agree that they are World Class managers. So in what sense was it a given they should win the League? Prior to Pep's arrival they had only won 2 Premier League titles in total.

They've spent massively, so much so, that they basically have two teams worth of players that could feasibly compete in any competition and win it. That's purely looking at things on paper though. In the time City have spent this money, Manchester United, Barca, Real, Juve, PSG, Chelsea and Bayern have all spent massive amounts of money on wages and transfer fees as well. So lets not kid ourselves on here that Manchester City have had a free hit at the Champions League since Pep arrived. They haven't. I agree he's absolutely contributed to their shortcomings in Europe in his time there by making baffling tactical decisions in the knock out stages of the CL but you cannot completely dismiss his domestic success. I can comfortably say he's failed in one metric of his job and that's only so far. If he wins the Champions League next season, is it still a failure?

I would fully understand the Pep's a failure because he hasn't won the Champions League with Manchester City argument. If the last 5 Champions League titles had been won at least once by a side who had fluked their way to winning it. That's not the case though. Real Madrid, Liverpool, Bayern Munich and Chelsea are all very good teams. It's the best club cup competition in the world for a reason and it's very difficult to win it. Hence the achievements by the likes of Guardiola, Zidane, Mourinho, Ancelotti and Sir Alex Ferguson are so revered because they won it multiple times throughout their careers.
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He doesn’t have “unlimited resources” either. City/Guardiola related threads are great if you like to read fiction.
 
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Johansen said:
Rangers did, but our ultimate aim was to win the European Cup/ Champions League under Holmes and Murray, does that make Souness, Smith and Advocaat failures.
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Can’t wait to see if anyone’s brave enough to give you an answer here. Will take some amount of spin to give you even a halfway credible one.
 
I love how not winning the Champions League is bandied about as a complete failure. Only 3 have ever won it 3 times, and Anchelotti is the only one of those to win it with 2 clubs. Only 5 managers have ever won it with 2 clubs yet Guardiola is seen as a failure every year because he hasn't done what only 1 other person has done in 70 years.

It is the notion of too many modern football fans that flip flop their opinions after a month of good or bad form.
 
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£773,679,000...

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Glasgowsteve said:
No City are spending obscene amounts of money, putting themselves up there with the other elite and super rich clubs like PSG, Bayern, Juve, Real, etc.
While we outspent Celtic and Dundee United we weren’t spending at the level of teams like AC Milan or Man U. We should have done better in Europe in the 90s. I thought we did pretty well with Advocaat but they ended in glorious failures. Again the gulf was increasing with the top clubs and we more than held our own. A little more luck and we could have cruised through (was it Bayern we out played and still lost?).
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We were out spending the English Clubs in the early 90s under Smith.
 
aghalee_hero said:
I love how not winning the Champions League is bandied about as a complete failure. Only 3 have ever won it 3 times, and Anchelotti is the only one of those to win it with 3 clubs. Only 5 managers have ever won it with 2 clubs yet Guardiola is seen as a failure every year because he hasn't done what only 1 other person has done in 70 years.

It is the notion of too many modern football fans that flip flop their opinions after a month of good or bad form.
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Spot on. No other manager in the world is judged in the same way Pep is and is expected to win the CL every season and them judged a failure if he doesn't, even if he dominates the domestic season. You'll then have the same guys saying Sir Alex is the GOAT when be only won it twice in 20 odd years at Man Utd who were the richest club in the world during that era with only perhaps Real Madrid having the same sort of spending power as them.

Klopp has won 2 trophies in 6 seasons at Liverpool and just scraped into the Top 4 by the skin of his teeth last season yet I've barely seen any criticism of him anywhere.
 
Glasgowsteve said:
No City are spending obscene amounts of money, putting themselves up there with the other elite and super rich clubs like PSG, Bayern, Juve, Real, etc.
While we outspent Celtic and Dundee United we weren’t spending at the level of teams like AC Milan or Man U. We should have done better in Europe in the 90s. I thought we did pretty well with Advocaat but they ended in glorious failures. Again the gulf was increasing with the top clubs and we more than held our own. A little more luck and we could have cruised through (was it Bayern we out played and still lost?).
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In 1986 and after we were the highest spenders in Britain, the remit was to win the European Cup so no amount of revisionism will change that. You say glorious failure, in other words we failed. If Guardiola has failed then the same applies elsewhere, that includes Souness, Smith and Advocaat if European Cup success is the criteria as to the success or failure of a manager.
 
Frank Burnside said:
Yes he has. He was hired explicitly to win the Champions League, he has failed to do so - including being knocked out by teams with a fraction of his budget. They were winning league titles & domestic trophies and failing in europe under Mancini & Pellegrini. Not much has changed, except the football is a bit easier on the eye.
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Mancini and Pellegrini weren’t consistently getting them to the later stages of the Champions League.

I’d say that’s a fairly significant change.
 
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