Club 1872 statement

Awful, awful idea.

All I've witnessed with Rangers fans groups, C1872 included is infighting, backstabbing and general bitterness all around.

That's disappointing and draining when witnessing it on Social Media but at least it's confined to the general running of those individual supporters groups. Can you imagine that level of destructiveness actually started to seep into the general running of the club impacting all manner of things?

Presumably this shareholding would come with representation on the board? How in god's name is that individual going to be decided upon amicably?

I applaud all involved for their good intentions but there has to be a bit of self awareness - the reality is this just won't be workable.
 
Hillheadbear said:
If C1872 are going to be asking the support for £13 million then the first thing they will have to provide is a prospectus. I wonder if they are cognisant of how much work there is going to be before any such prospectus can be issued?
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Are the current directors of C72 capable of this. From the previous in fighting it appears they could cause a fight in an empty house. Would anyone trust this group with £13M.
 
jorg_the_hammer said:
If club 1872 are serious about this I would seriously recommend involving an icon in the clubs history to oversee the whole thing. CEO? Not sure exactly, but a figurehead respected by the support to take the place on the board. Smith, Brown or Souness would be good.
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Maybe assist in the promotion of Club 1872 but not on the Board. This needs the relevant qualifications.
 
Arkyblue said:
I don’t like the sound of this . What happens if in future years like this year we need additional funds to cover a shortfall? To be honest as well C1872 have not demonstrated to me anything to suggest they have the ability to run a Club as big as ours. I will certainly not be contributing too or supporting this
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The club can't rely on benefactors forever.

What happens if the club faces a significant short term financial need? Existing shareholders would still be able to offer funds for the club but there would almost certainly be a barrier to that debt being converted to equity in the future.

Long term? Relying on director loans is unsustainable. However it happens, it's something that has to change.
 
RoofeIsOnFire said:
They will be asking the Rangers fans to pay for it
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Of course the Rangers fans will pay for it as they will be the beneficiaries, I understand how some supporters are unsure about it but this protects the club from future rats like fat mike and his ilk. Never forget just how near we were to dying due to those asset stripping bastards. There could be blocks of flats where the stadium now stands had they been allowed to carry on ripping off the club in order to line their own pockets. I am cautious but optimistic about the future of Rangers if we are stronger and united (I know, I know)and protected from the gangsters and con-men who so recently polluted the boardroom and never had the interests of us or our club at heart.
Minty sold his shares to whoever got him off the hook. King is selling to Rangers fans. As I said I cautiously welcome this development.
Club 1872 IS the fans and a democratic group who will always make the interests of Rangers and the supporters the first and foremost priority.

W.A.T.P.
 
Hmmm

have often wondered about joining C1872. Always wanted shares in the club too tbh. But I know this wouldn’t give he my own share(s).

If C1872 really do have 7-8k members now, what happens if they don’t get the 2-3 times more than they need? What happens to the shares they don’t buy?

I’m not sure about a fan group being the biggest share holder. What will it mean for investment in future?

Doesn't the current split of shares mean 2011/12 can’t happen again? Wouldn’t it be better for C1872 to have a larger holding but with some DK’s shares being sold to investors?

I think C1872 need to put an FAQ together!
 
Robbie Hepburn said:
Will they actually run the club though? Does it not just get them a seat on the board?
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Various ways that it could be structured, but it would almost certainly mean Rangers continuing to be run by a professional board of directors.

Fan owned clubs don't suddenly appoint Jimmy the local barber as the CFO or Margaret from the bakers as chairwoman.
 
LLLG said:
Fan ownership is itself a mental route for us to go down. We can’t agree on the basics of who our captain should be after a defeat for example. We are and I include myself in this statement far to quick to get angry lol and that’s with a draw or defeat.

Also having watched what the hearts model has become then I would say even more so than ever that fan ownership is the last resort
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Fan ownership doesnt mean fans make decisions like who our captain is.
 
stonewall Jackson said:
Are the current directors of C72 capable of this. From the previous in fighting it appears they could cause a fight in an empty house. Would anyone trust this group with £13M.
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I refer you to my previous remarks concerning the use of professional advisors and whether C1872 is structured right for a transaction of this size.
 
I think this is brilliant news.

Dave King is basically gifting half his shares to the fans.

We will be one of the most fan ownership based clubs in the UK, all we need to do is get organised.
 
dynamo_rosco said:
It shouldn’t go unnoticed that Dave King, a man who always has the best interest of the club, has confirmed he feels c1872 is the right body to sell his shares to. This mindset is also backed by the current shareholders.
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C1872 is the only fan group now. There isn’t another option. I’m too unaware of the running of C1872 to know if that’s a good thing or not.
 
Valley Bluenose said:
Of course they are. My point was you were highlighting that if this works then Club 1872 might not have the ability to put further funds in where necessary. If Club 1872 don’t buy King’s shares then who does? There’s not a long queue of folk we would trust. If Park et al buy Kings shares then they too would almost certainly then find themselves unable to inject further funds. Just as you feared Club 1872 might find.

Bottom line is that King wants out, to put it bluntly. Someone has to buy his shares and who better than the fans? I actually don’t think Club 1872 can pull this off but I wish them well and I will probably back it, since I can’t currently but my own shares in the Club. It’s a big ask for them though and, personally, my biggest fear is not how Club 1872 handle it but what happens to Kings shares if they fail. For all their perceived failings I’d rather Club 1872 than someone who’s chosen, through all our troubles, to steer clear then appear on the scene when things are looking up in footballing terms.
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I would imagine they will be swept up by current and new investors. King's original promise and the timing has meant C1872 have the first opportunity.

Ride through the pandemic and CL qualification, investor money becomes available.
 
iaatpies said:
Various ways that it could be structured, but it would almost certainly mean Rangers continuing to be run by a professional board of directors.

Fan owned clubs don't suddenly appoint Jimmy the local barber as the CFO or Margaret from the bakers as chairwoman.
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This is what I thought, why are people so upset about it then?
 
Bluedell said:
All C1872 cash should go to the club, and NOT a shareholder!
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I can sort of see that where Club 1872 in particular is concerned. But what I would say is that you can’t expect shareholders more generally - whether it be King, Douglas Park, George Taylor, George Letham or the various other investors to whom we owe a debt of gratitude - to constantly put money in with no prospect of ever getting anything back by way of an onward sale of those shares. There being some form of somewhat healthy secondary market for shares isn’t a bad thing. There has to be some liquidity to allow these investors to sell their shares at some point and, particularly if they sell to a friendly face, I don’t think we should begrudge them doing that.
 
Huge news. A real opportunity to get Club 1872 to that 25%+1 share limit and have safeguarding powers in future in case of the Club being in bad hands.

With this acquisition, Club 1872 would have to improve it's structure and grow the organisation to cope with being the largest shareholder. We would need to bring in quality professionals and paying them accordingly. This would all be driven by membership voter approval.

For those sceptical, it's understandable. I see it similar to the Heart and Hand guys in that it's fan involvement rather than fan ownership.
 
Robbie Hepburn said:
I didn't think they would but people seem to be reacting to this news as if they are which surprised me
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Which is why there needs to be a massive effort to address the concerns of supporters. Fan ownership is an alien concept on these shores. That's a by product of how our football emerged. We were professional from the early days and our clubs were built on the back of Victorian and Edwardian philanthropists who wanted to give something back to their home towns or cities. Its something that works throughout world football. There's no reason why it couldn't work in the UK. It would however take a huge change in fan attitudes and understanding of how fan ownership works.
 
Still Staunch said:
It’s patently evident. This is about stopping a repeat of 2012. We cannot rely on millionaires to constantly babysit our club. This isn’t about overall fan ownership, this is about 25%, having a veto and ensuring we never suffer the shite we have for the last 10 years.

How can anyone not see this. It’s beyond me.
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It’s really not patently evident. C1872 haven’t done anything to prove they can handle 25%, if they have can you please point me in the right direction?
I have been a paying member for years. I haven’t had any correspondence from them in months.
 
stonewall Jackson said:
Must have missed your previous remarks.
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Hillheadbear said:
When you are looking at a transaction of this size then you need professionals involved.

First we need a close look at C1872 to make sure it is structured right in order to take on a far more important role.

Second we need to understand how C1872 will hold its shares In RFC.

Third, we need to look at how fan-investors hold their shares. Logically, C1872 will hold the RFC shares and members will hold shares in C1872. There will need to be a discussion as to how 'tradeable' those shares are. For example, what happens when a shareholder passes on? Does C1872 have a right of pre-emption? Where do they find cash to buy back those shares.

Fourth, there needs to be a close look at governance within C1872. That isn't a criticism but we need to make sure it's squeaky clean.

Fifth, there needs to be some input as to how C1872 interacts with RFC. Will they have a director? Will they have more than one director? How will those directors be chosen? Will they have a fixed term, etc.?

This is all off the top of my head. I've been retired for a while so I'm a little rusty in these matters.
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Slim Jim said:
I agree with that. But is it not the case that the RIFC Board have not included Club1872 in any of the latest share issues?
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True, but I'm not sure they had the cash anyway. The club wouldn't be turning down the cash if they had it available.
 
_DON_ said:
We are all aware of the state of play in South Africa, which means Dave King can longer be as involved as he would like, so selling his shares makes sense - and selling those shares to the fans fulfills his initial promise to secure the legacy of our club. However, the information, or lack thereof, given to current C1972 members is somewhat of a concern. There are no guarantees that C1972 will be able to substantially grow their membership enough to fulfill the purchase of those shares, therefore they will instead be reliant on goodwill of their current membership.
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I get what you mean but I truly believe that we, the supporters have to act as a group to avoid the mess of the recent history with the sell out to Whyte and the rest of the motly crew who leeched off our club.

W.A.T.P.
 
This has come about very suddenly. I think we all need to let the dust settle and look at this in greater detail before making any judgements. I for one would like to hear the views of the other main shareholders on this proposal.
 
Seems to me that this is probably a non starter anyway. I can’t see the support buying into this and after all King is only giving them first option. If as I suspect they cannot raise the cash he will have to find another buyer/ buyers
 
Are the club 1872 guys full time ? If there not then it this to work there needs to be a move to people working full time. Transparency will be key and going months without correspondence won’t cut it
 
ald said:
Assuming the Investor section of the website is up to date, New Oasis (King) currently owns 66,672,893 shares (20.37%). Club 1872 currently own 16,202,838 (4.95%). There are 327,241,872 shares in issue. So Club 1872 could get to just over 25%.

Whilst I kind of understand the view that Club 1872 has been the subject of infighting / maybe a lack of clarity, is now not the time for us as a support to come together and, if we aren’t happy about the governance of Club 1872, to fix it? I think it is easy to equate Club 1872 to particular board members etc. But those board members will come and go. Sometimes you’ll like directors A, B and C, other times I’ll like directors D, E and E. But nothing is forever. If a director isn’t doing a good job then they can be voted out (or at least not re-elected). Should we not be focusing on making Club 1872 the organisation we want it to be rather than what it might have been in the past?
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To be fair I dont mind having a range of successful bears owning small percentages in the club.

It is shown to have served us well and ensured we have access to financing when we need it.

Club 1872 taking Kings shares rather than another one, two or three successful bears just poses financial support risk for me.

As an idea it sounds great until you start to think about financial contingencies etc, as a reality I fear it would be a nightmare.
 
ald said:
I can sort of see that where Club 1872 in particular is concerned. But what I would say is that you can’t expect shareholders more generally - whether it be King, Douglas Park, George Taylor, George Letham or the various other investors to whom we owe a debt of gratitude - to constantly put money in with no prospect of ever getting anything back by way of an onward sale of those shares. There being some form of somewhat healthy secondary market for shares isn’t a bad thing. There has to be some liquidity to allow these investors to sell their shares at some point and, particularly if they sell to a friendly face, I don’t think we should begrudge them doing that.
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Not at the cost of £13m of the fans' cash, which could otherwise go into the club.

Do you want £13m to allow us to win the league or to give shareholders a secondary market?
 
KirkieRanger said:
Of course the Rangers fans will pay for it as they will be the beneficiaries, I understand how some supporters are unsure about it but this protects the club from future rats like fat mike and his ilk. Never forget just how near we were to dying due to those asset stripping bastards. There could be blocks of flats where the stadium now stands had they been allowed to carry on ripping off the club in order to line their own pockets. I am cautious but optimistic about the future of Rangers if we are stronger and united (I know, I know)and protected from the gangsters and con-men who so recently polluted the boardroom and never had the interests of us or our club at heart.
Minty sold his shares to whoever got him off the hook. King is selling to Rangers fans. As I said I cautiously welcome this development.
Club 1872 IS the fans and a democratic group who will always make the interests of Rangers and the supporters the first and foremost priority.

W.A.T.P.
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Doesnt protect us from that as there is 75% of shares outwith that combined shareholding.
 
Arkyblue said:
I don’t like the sound of this . What happens if in future years like this year we need additional funds to cover a shortfall? To be honest as well C1872 have not demonstrated to me anything to suggest they have the ability to run a Club as big as ours. I will certainly not be contributing too or supporting this
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Who's asking Club1872 to run the club? The club is run by those elected by shareholders to run the club.

What King is offering is the chance for supporters via the vehicle of Club 1872 to have a substantial, but not majority, shareholding in the club.
 
Can’t see it mentioned in the statement but as Club 1872 will have circa 30% of the shareholding I presume a place on the board is part of the deal? Or would that have to be agreed at a board meeting?
 
Mixed emotions. In 2012 I hoped DK would save us & said so. He knows what he's doing; I've always trusted him. Want to see him from GR when he holds aloft 55 on our hallowed turf. Perhaps some part of our Stadium will one day bear his name. WATP.
 
Marstonbear said:
King wants to sell his shares and is giving a fan-run group first dips on them.

The main benefit to me is there will no longer be an opportunity for similar types to the likes of SDM and Whyte to carry out they actions unchecked
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I’m not so sure that’s correct.

The fan percentage share while significant would not be enough to stop say for example The King of Mongolia buying out the current shareholders at the current rate (50p not the 23p discounted rate being offered to C1872) and doing as he pleased with the club.

If I’m not mistaken a majority shareholder can pretty much do as they please.

It’s a great gesture by DK but there are lots of unanswered ’buts’ and lots of as yet unanswered questions.

Im pretty relaxed though as I’m sure that before the day is out Phil Three names will have issued an in-depth analysis of when we can expect to be joining Woolworths, Debenhams team al.
 
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There are many Bears, some on here who run successful companies, to suggest non of them could sit on our board representing C1872 is wrong imo. It's not a fan ownership option buying DK shares, it an opportunity to increase fan influence through our increased shareholding and that input directed by a business professional.
 
I can’t fathom the thought process of Club 1872. If they have £13m to invest, over whatever time it may be, why on earth would they give that money to an individual rather than direct toThe Club?

It’s certainly not a move with the best interests of The Club at heart from my viewpoint.
 
It seems like he wants to sell anyway and would therefore rather sell to the fans than run the risk of another White coming in and ruining us again. Would prefer he stayed and Club 1872 invested additional funds but that does not seem to be an option long term.
 
Marcellus Wallace said:
Can’t see it mentioned in the statement but as Club 1872 will have circa 30% of the shareholding I presume a place on the board is part of the deal? Or would that have to be agreed at a board meeting?
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A place on the Board is in the gift of ALL shareholders at the AGM. Board Members have to be elected annually by the wider shareholders - whatever ‘deal’, if any, may be in place beforehand.
 
Roscoblue said:
I can’t fathom the thought process of Club 1872. If they have £13m to invest, over whatever time it may be, why on earth would they give that money to an individual rather than direct toThe Club?

It’s certainly not a move with the best interests of The Club at heart from my viewpoint.
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First, they don't have £13 million to invest. That money still has to be found.

Second, they are buying out Dave King in order to have enough shares to, hopefully, block any future spivs.
 
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