Celtic face threat of multimillion pound compensation claim(The Times)

I am fairly certain a poster/posters checked both papers in the Mitchell and found nothing.
There are, normally, more than one edition. I would think that libraries would only file the one as there is only a legal requirement to be “of the same quality as the best copies which, at the time of delivery, have been produced for publication in the United Kingdom” [Legal deposit Libraries Act 2003]. The edition that would be in, say Glasgow, would be of an early edition of a London published newspaper while a late edition of, say, The Herald.

So while the words might have been published in, say, the first edition at 21:00 by the time 02:00 came around there might have been amendments made. Or if They were involved, censored.

The libraries where there is a requirement to deposit publications are the Bodleian collection. The Royal Library (now the British Library), Cambridge University, and the library of Sion College, and, in Scotland, to the Advocates Library and the universities of four original Scottish Universities. After 1801 also Trinity College and Kings inn in Dublin.

It might be worthwhile checking more than one library
 
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I know this is a bit off topic but I've just realised that any and all threads on KDS related to Celtic Child Abuse are closed and redirected to a generic CSA abuse thread. On the first page you can see "Big dirty masonic cover up without a doubt.". A quick click through some pages and you can see some are wanting their club to do the right thing but the outrage is mainly reserved for Prince Andrew. This is probably not worth a post but I was pretty shocked,
I’ve seen someone talk about it on kerrydale street and they were told politely to go to the child abuse thread in their version of the lounge.
 
If I am being honest, I keep thinking that what we are seeing is another case of Savile. Those in high places waiting for the vile preparators and those that knew who were directly involved pass and then face trial.

Celtic park is the chamber of secrets and in any other Country would be facing a full blown government enquiry.
 
I know this is a bit off topic but I've just realised that any and all threads on KDS related to Celtic Child Abuse are closed and redirected to a generic CSA abuse thread. On the first page you can see "Big dirty masonic cover up without a doubt.". A quick click through some pages and you can see some are wanting their club to do the right thing but the outrage is mainly reserved for Prince Andrew. This is probably not worth a post but I was pretty shocked,
I had a bit of an arguement with one of the unwashed years ago and he was telling me that the victims needed to be protected and I wasn't the man he thot I was for wanting it highlighted.
No worries about Prince Andrews victims it would seem.
 
I thought mcneill said it was an open secret, in a tv interview outside court after one of their trials.
I could be wrong tho, was a long time ago.
 
I've spent many many hours on the web and can't see the "open secret" quote anywhere. Tried many search variables.That's not to say it doesn't exist, or was ever said. I just can't find it. And the Daily Record archives don't go as far back. Neither do the Glasgow evening times or the Scotland on Sunday.
I'll keep trying though.
Daily Record (Glasgow, Scotland); 11/7/1998; McILWRAITH, GORDON
JOCK Stein and the Celtic board covered up allegations made against Boys' Club founder Jim Torbett,

Mr Birt said: "There was a lot of hearsay and it wasn't until Jim came back that I got involved because things started up again."

He told how he took the allegations against Torbett to the Celtic board and Stein and even told the then vice-chairman, Kevin Kelly, about them at a meeting in his car.
He said: "Although there were people who spoke to me I couldn't go to the police without actual proof of the allegations. When I joined as chairman, I was told by Jock Stein to keep the name of Celtic Football Club clean at all times."

Billy McNeil said, on oath in a court of law, "It was an open secret at Parkhead"
 
Billy McNeil said, on oath in a court of law, "It was an open secret at Parkhead"
I'm almost certain that I once stumbled across a court transcript of that mid nighties trial and that was on it. Have tried googling and finding it again but to no avail, wouldn't put it passed them to of had it removed. There was rumours just after I found it that they were removing articles from the web.
 
I'm almost certain that I once stumbled across a court transcript of that mid nighties trial and that was on it. Have tried googling and finding it again but to no avail, wouldn't put it passed them to of had it removed. There was rumours just after I found it that they were removing articles from the web.
100% agree, they cleansed the web over time however these things can still be found if you know how to do it (I don't)
 
IIRC - Macari's book referred to something along the lines of - he was given a list of things to do when taking over the manager's job -
Most things related to general duties like players contracts etc.
But amongst the usual activities was a complaint about CSA
Where he mentioned this was a matter for the police (not the manager).
To my knowledge he didn't inform the police & neither
IIRC - Macari's book referred to something along the lines of - he was given a list of things to do when taking over the manager's job -
Most things related to general duties like players contracts etc.
But amongst the usual activities was a complaint about CSA
Where he mentioned this was a matter for the police (not the manager).
To my knowledge he didn't inform the police & neither did the club's board

I may have got this wrong - I never read his book & I'm trusting my memory from a previous quote & haven't researched it
So maybe it'll go along the same way as Ceaser's 'quote'

did the club's board

I may have got this wrong - I never read his book & I'm trusting my memory from a previous quote & haven't researched it
So maybe it'll go along the same way as Ceaser's 'quote'

" I didn't know what to do"

Phone the police is the obvious answer.

Unfortunately like many at that rancid club the macaroni munchkin seems to have forgotten the number.
 
Someone mentioned to me earlier that something came up on their FB feed about an enquiry into the delay over the Scottish CSA inquiry.
Anybody see anything on that?
 
If I am being honest, I keep thinking that what we are seeing is another case of Savile. Those in high places waiting for the vile preparators and those that knew who were directly involved pass and then face trial.

Celtic park is the chamber of secrets and in any other Country would be facing a full blown government enquiry.

This is the thing HB.

I was asking the other day why Holyrood or Police Scotland have not done anything and if/when can the U.K. government step in , but BN94 thouroughly explained the reasons ( thanks again mate ) and how they are finding it really difficult to get some massive momentum on this because, basically , we all know that our MP's and possibly people in P.S. and the judicial system are muddying the waters somewhat or stalling the system.

To BN94 , Grigio Yossarian and all others who are actively working so hard to have justice carried out , what can we do to help put pressure on any part of the Scottish government or any of the areas where you feel that you are being ignored ?

There are many people who have kept up with this thread and others who will probably be looking in and just catching up , but if there's anything that we can do to help then let us know guys.
 
Slightly off topic but this is interesting:

There is no end to it within the catholic religion seemingly :mad: feel sorry for anybody that's been tortured both mentally and physically by these perverts who hide behind the fortress of a powerful religion to save them from the justice they so much deserve . Let's hope some decent people can bring justice for the victims of these depraved animals and shame on those who cover it up and let it continue by keeping it all hushed up .
 
Recall evidence from when the family the boy was staying with in Florida contacted the Boys Club with allegations of abuse. I'm sure the first people they tried to contact in the UK were the directors at CFC. Separate entity, nonsense
They did but because it was a Bank Holiday the couldn't get a hold of them , this is another part of their history that will be shown up
 
I've spent many many hours on the web and can't see the "open secret" quote anywhere. Tried many search variables.That's not to say it doesn't exist, or was ever said. I just can't find it. And the Daily Record archives don't go as far back. Neither do the Glasgow evening times or the Scotland on Sunday.
I'll keep trying though.
We've tried everywhere to find it, the only place for definite to see if it was true would be the court minutes. People are saying it was in the Evening Times around that date still can't find it
 
This is the thing HB.

I was asking the other day why Holyrood or Police Scotland have not done anything and if/when can the U.K. government step in , but BN94 thouroughly explained the reasons ( thanks again mate ) and how they are finding it really difficult to get some massive momentum on this because, basically , we all know that our MP's and possibly people in P.S. and the judicial system are muddying the waters somewhat or stalling the system.

To BN94 , Grigio Yossarian and all others who are actively working so hard to have justice carried out , what can we do to help put pressure on any part of the Scottish government or any of the areas where you feel that you are being ignored ?

There are many people who have kept up with this thread and others who will probably be looking in and just catching up , but if there's anything that we can do to help then let us know guys.
A protest at The Scottish Parliament would be my choice
 
Same obfuscation and barriers put up to stop this inquiry. This will be the same as the one in England. A complete whitewash with a couple of sacrificial lambs presented to us. Utterly ridiculous the length of time taken here but it is deliberate. It's the same tactics used in the Hutton Inquiry. Delay, delay, delay until the public forget and then finally publish on a good day to bury bad news.
 
IIRC - Macari's book referred to something along the lines of - he was given a list of things to do when taking over the manager's job -
Most things related to general duties like players contracts etc.
But amongst the usual activities was a complaint about CSA
Where he mentioned this was a matter for the police (not the manager).
To my knowledge he didn't inform the police & neither did the club's board

I may have got this wrong - I never read his book & I'm trusting my memory from a previous quote & haven't researched it
So maybe it'll go along the same way as Ceaser's '
Exctract from his book.

Away from first-team and club matters, which were bad enough, another issue was beginning to raise its ugly head at the club. Within a month of my arrival one of the young players asked to see me in my office. 'Here we go,' I thought. 'That didn't take long. Here's a youngster in to complain about not being in the team. Straight away he's going to be into me to give him his chance.' He sat down and told me that he had had problems on a trip to North America with the youth team. One of the fellas in charge had made advances towards him.
As a manager you expect to have to sort out all sorts of problems. But this wasn't one I ever saw coming. I was staggered. To be frank, I didn't know how to respond for the best. Clearly the kid was distressed about what had happened, but I felt I couldn't just approach the accused and ask him to explain himself without proof. My hands were tied, in a way. I felt completely stuck and out of my depth. I spoke to my staff. They were shocked. My gut feeling was that the kid was speaking the truth, but there was no mechanism within the club or within my experience to deal with it. It was a police matter if anything. Any investigation had to start with them
 
" I didn't know what to do"

Phone the police is the obvious answer.

Unfortunately like many at that rancid club the macaroni munchkin seems to have forgotten the number.
The incident he's talking about took place in Kearny, NJ in 1993. He says there was no mechanism in the club to deal with it. Which is odd, considering how quickly Paedophile #2 was given the choice of 'resign or face a police investigation', for an incident in the same place, only two years earlier.

You'll also notice that, near the end, he says he wishes "he could have done more for the lad. It was a police matter, if anything." He didn't say anything about actually calling the police.

Then, right at the end, he swiftly turns his attention away from boys being abused to management takeovers.


This is the full extract from the book.

"Away from first-team and club matters, which were bad enough, another issue was beginning to raise its ugly head at the club. Within a month of my arrival one of the young players asked to see me in my office.

Here we go,’ I thought. ‘That didn’t take long. Here’s a youngster in to complain about not being in the team. Straight away he’s going to be into me to give him his chance.’

He sat down and told me that he had had problems on a trip to North America with the youth team. One of the fellas in charge had made advances towards him.

As a manager you expect to have to sort out all sorts of problems. But this wasn’t one I ever saw coming. I was staggered. To be frank, I didn’t know how to respond for the best.

Clearly the kid was distressed about what had happened, but I felt I couldn’t just approach the accused and ask him to explain himself without proof. My hands were tied, in a way. I felt completely stuck and out of my depth.

I spoke to my staff. They were shocked. My gut feeling was that the kid was speaking the truth, but there was no mechanism within the club or within my experience to deal with it. It was a police matter if anything.

Any investigation had to start with them. And that’s exactly what happened. A couple of years later it all came out. Paedophile #1 was convicted of sexual abuse of three players. Paedophile #2 was charged but not convicted.

It emerged that years earlier Jock Stein knew all about Paedophile #1 and kicked him out of the club. The wish to maintain the good name of Celtic, if that were ever a good enough reason, was the only thing that kept the issue from coming to light at that point.

There was a string of allegations by young lads whose dreams of playing for Celtic were exploited, but it was the testimony of Alan Brazil, David Gordon and James McGrory that brought the matter to court, and Paedophile #1 to justice.

Before I was approached, I knew nothing about it. I joined Celtic as a youngster in 1965, the year before the Boys’ Club was set up. It was completely off my radar then. I had never even heard of Paedophile #1, and subsequently never met him.

The details were sickening. I wished I could have done more for the lad, but it was awkward. I had hardly been at the club five minutes. And there were other fires burning.

It seemed only a matter of time before Fergus McCann, who was conducting a clever campaign and who had people inside the club agitating on his behalf, took over.

Kevin Kelly was fighting a losing battle. McCann eventually claimed the prize he wanted late on a Friday night in March 1994. It was obvious something was going on from the number of solicitors coming through the door."
 
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Was it a quote in Lou Macari's autobiography or was that another damning one?
It was supposed to have been said in Billy McNeills autobiography but wasn't as far as I know.
It's immaterial, the stuff that has been unearthed in the last couple of years from the Spotlight team is incredible and there can be no denying from anyone of what went on in that cesspit.
 
I checked the Times and the Herald in the Mitchell over a decade ago because this kept cropping up.

Reading through the reports of the Torbett trial the most striking thing was the level of support he got from Celtic directors, especially Michael Kelly.

They backed Torbett to the hilt.
Michael Kelly is an abuser in my eyes. He was an intricate part of this ring.
 
I received my long awaited reply from my MSP on my questions into a full public enquiry.
Not surprisingly, they have written lots of words that actually mean nothing in the whole grand scheme of things. As far as they are concerned, it's all over now the SFA report is all that is required and there will be no further enquiry. The justice system is dealing with things and that's all they are interested in.

Makes my blood boil that some of these MSP's are happy for this to be swept under the carpet with no actions or investigations into those that harboured and aided these disgusting criminals to carry on with the abuse.

I will not be letting this go and fully intend to carry on my emails and questions of these people as long as I can.
 
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I received my long awaited reply from my MSP on my questions into a full public enquiry.
Not surprisingly, they have written lots of words that actually mean nothing in the whole grand scheme of things. As far as they are concerned, it's all over now the SFA report is all that is required and there will be no further enquiry. The justice system is dealing with things and that's all they are interested in.

Makes my blood boil that some of these MSP's are happy for this to be swept under the carpet with no actions or investigations into those that harboured and aided these disgusting criminals to carry on with the abuse.

I will not be letting this go and fully intend to carry on my emails and questions of these people as long as I can.

Dear stfu,

I hope this finds you well. Please accept my apologies for the delay in this response reaching you. Due to an error in the Scottish Government, the query made on your behalf was overlooked by the department due to a high amount of pandemic related queries. I have followed up on this, however, and a response has since been issued. Please find a copy of this letter attached.

This letter outlines the Scottish Government’s response to The Independent Review published in February 2021. The Minister's response is supportive of the report and its findings.

Bill Kidd MSP believes that the protection of children must be at the heart of all efforts to investigate and respond effectively and proportionately to historic childhood sexual abuse. There is an absolute requirement that those in football with responsibility for the safeguarding of children respond to this report with proper action to ensure this abhorrent abuse is not repeated. Whilst the report cannot undo the wrongs committed against children, it remains a powerful action to state the truth of what happened and to highlight the reprehensibility of historic abuse. Ultimately truth stands- lies and deception do not. These reprehensible acts cannot remain hidden and, therefore, given space to be repeated- instead, the truth of what happened must be brought into the light. We are hopeful that the report has fulfilled this important step by sharing the experiences of survivors of abuse and that the recommended actions are fully implemented across Scottish football.

Beyond this, the justice system must be the way through which justice is provided by the State for those who were victims of abuse. As you will appreciate, legal proceedings cannot be influenced by government or politicians. This principle is important in ensuring that the courts remain fair and underpins their ability to provide recourse to justice. Tackling and responding to childhood abuse goes to the core of the integrity of legal and democratic systems. It is about providing justice regardless of levels of power or influence.


I appreciate that this letter from the Minister, the report and the legal proceedings cannot, in retrospect, provide the security and protection that should have been there for children in the past. Whilst apologies have been made, the human impact of abuse will still be felt by survivors. Nonetheless, I hope that the assertion of truth through this report will help survivors to be strengthened and vindicated. Moreover, I hope that there is real encouragement for survivors that this evil will not be repeated, and children will be safe and protected in Scottish football going forward. In this letter the Minister highlights that as of 2018, a minimum standard has been in place for clubs to have a child wellbeing and protection officer present at each club to ensure proper action is taken to safeguard children in this environment. Many more recommendations, building on this, can be found in the review.


For some survivors, participation in political groups like the CPG on survivors of childhood abuse, may be helpful. For others it may be that seeking support, for example by sharing their experience with someone trustworthy, is an important step to take.


I hope this letter from the Minister is helpful in explaining the Scottish Government's response to the independent review.

Kind regards,

Office of Bill Kidd MSP


The Scottish Parliament, Edinburgh, EH99 1SP
“Due to an error in the Scottish government” (well that’s no surprise)

Another reply from a representative of an MSP who doesn’t have the decency to reply personally. We’ve had the same problem but then we demand to speak to the MSP directly.

I know it’s been said many times, but it’s wise not to post replies from MSP’s on here. Some who have backed us have received abuse from the apologists in the east end.
If anyone does get a reply then please feel free to contact either myself or @Grigo Yossarian in private. We hold all the replies in one database.
 
Reference your first paragraph.. I’m sure it was in Alex Thomson’s C4 piece on Gordon Woods where he stated that Celtic clearly benefited from the boys club and that’s how the Supreme Court will view it.
This also below from Patrick McGuire back in 2018..

There was a precedent set when a prisoner slipped and injured himself in the prison kitchen. Although not the same entity as HM Prison, the kitchen was deemed to be an integral part of the “Business” of the prison, therefore the prison was liable. I think this may be the link

 
I know this is a bit off topic but I've just realised that any and all threads on KDS related to Celtic Child Abuse are closed and redirected to a generic CSA abuse thread. On the first page you can see "Big dirty masonic cover up without a doubt.". A quick click through some pages and you can see some are wanting their club to do the right thing but the outrage is mainly reserved for Prince Andrew. This is probably not worth a post but I was pretty shocked,
Denial and deflection is what they do.
 
Hope you don't mean the Glasshouse in Colchester mate o_O or am I giving my age away ? :shh:
No mate not Colly (this time), just the virtual glasshouse on FF.;)

So the usual “lessons will be learned” pish trotted out over Scottish governments 13 year delay in holding a CSA inquiry but snp are at pains to blame old baw jaws salmond and absolve wee krankie?
Is that the end of the matter then, or will someone have to answer questions as to the real reason for the reluctance to hold an inquiry?
 
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Certainly not that scummy club nor the scummy government anyway.

1974 P#1 thrown out by Jock Stein
1980 P#1 returns to CFC
Then it still went on for 6 years before CFC acted with a sham investigation that found nothing in 1986
In 1991 P#2 was forced to resign in shame
Astonishingly 3 years later the Manager of CFC attempted to bring back P#2 to CFC

1997 P#1 is convicted of abuse

Today CFC still deny any blame and have cited that CBC was a "seperate entity" and not officially a part of CFC .

Spotlight of course have blown that particular myth clean out of the water.

They knew then and covered it up

They know now and are still denying any blame and trying to cover it up.
Spotlight has their number

No one is innocent at that bucket of shite of a club ..then or now!
 
They knew, they all knew, playing devils advocate maybe just maybe it would be more difficult to find someone who didn't know ?
Whatever the achievements of this sorry club, never let it be forgotten the legacy of depravity and deception they have left in their wake. To the hundreds of victims and survivors it is in the interests of humanity that the truth be told. They have been ignored and treated appallingly, when will they receive justice?
 
Om whether McNeil knew or not here are 3 things that have been written about or happened in the media regrading Charlie Nicholas

1 He stated in a Sky memorial piece re McNeil that he went to visit his mother before signing for the scum as a boys player that he would be "protected" if he signed CN's words
2 Recently CN stated that Desmond phoned whist he was at Sky about comments he made regarding the scum and to behave
3 Not that long afterwards pulled as a Sky employee


Not saying there are related but do suggest McNeil knew what was going on as did his mother 2 and 3 suggest CQT have a long reach
 

Top official suspended at Celtic Boys Club​





THE executive of Celtic Boys Club announced last night that a senior official had been suspended from his post following allegations of indecent behaviour.
The move came after Strathclyde Police confirmed yesterday it was investigating claims of indecent behaviour dating back several years in connection with the club.
Following an hour-long meeting, executive chairman Tony McGuinness said: ``The executive of the Celtic Boys Club at this evening's meeting discussed the allegations made in today's press against Jim Torbett.

``Pending the outcome of a full investigation, and in the interests of all parties, Mr Torbett has been excused from his duties at the Celtic Boys Club, which are purely administrative in nature.
``The allegations made are of a very serious nature and the parties concerned have a responsibility to report any relevant information to the police.''
Mr McGuinness added: ``We are advised that there could well be legal proceedings arising from these reports and feel it inappropriate to make further comment at this time.''

The police investigation was launched after detectives received a complaint several weeks ago from former boys club player David Gordon. Their inquiries are expected to include interviews with other former boys club players.
In a statement issued yesterday, Strathclyde Police said: ``We can confirm that a complaint has been made involving allegations of indecency going back a number of years concerning an individual at Celtic Boys Club. At this stage of our inquiries, it would be inappropriate to identify the individual involved or specify the nature of the allegations.''
One police source added that, if other people came forward with complaints, detectives would take statements and assess the situation before deciding whether to take any further action.
The police move follows an investigation into allegations of sexual abuse of young players, made against another man connected with Celtic Boys Club, which was carried out late last year and early this year.
 
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