Union Bears Statement on UEFA's decision

Valley Bluenose said:
With all respect, FF isn’t full of MENSA members mate. If, as you say, most on here don’t need lists then it’s fair to assume most of the wider support don’t either. Those who choose to do so are doing so wilfully and in some sort of misguided defiance.
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Well I’m in DENSA and I know what not to sing.
 
Corporal Clegg said:
Who exactly are these Catholic bogeymen who are roaming the halls of UEFA looking to destroy us? Can you name one?

It's ridiculous. We're a club from one of the lowest ranked leagues in Europe. I doubt that anyone important within UEFA gives that much of a f*ck about us. Probably an office junior who processed our sanction.
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Yet as a club from one of the lowest ranked leagues we get constant attention and citations from FARE for a word that the office junior wouldn't even understand?

Do some research into FARE mate, it's not hard to find.

If you don't believe there is troubling information, carry on.
 
bigneil65 said:
If I was employed by uefa to observe matches I'd be doing my homework to ensure I was prepared to carry out my job effectively. Same as any job. Otherwise I might find myself to be out of a job.
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You're living in a fantasy world, mate. UEFA match delegates get sent to every corner of Europe, where they have no clue of the countless local languages, dialects or meanings of colloquialisms.
 
Valley Bluenose said:
Much as it sticks in the craw, I do agree there may be merit in such a discussion. However, I suspect FARE would simply say don’t sing anything that could be construed as sectarian or discriminatory. They wouldn’t get into specifics.
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The problem with all that, is it's so subjective. Take away the aspect of whether certain songs should be at the football, some folk would argue that comment on the IRA isn't sectarian or discriminatory, but political. I certainly wouldn't take any issue with someone singing against the IRA, but it appears FARE would act out against that.

There simply needs to be specifics from them, this vague, make-it-up-as-we-go-along tactic from them is an utterly unacceptable way to rule. At least if there was a specific set of "values" across the board, then the clubs would have no recourse for appeal if found guilty. As it stands, we could rightly assume that X, Y and Z are banned and refrain from indulging in such, but along come FARE and retrospectively decide that W is also unacceptable, and we're now in trouble for something else that we didn't even consider a problem.

Could you imagine a real world where the authorities didn't tell you what was and wasn't legal? It would be absolute anarchy if folk were left to decide what they thought was and wasn't acceptable conduct. We all come from different backgrounds and as such, our ideas of morality will differ from person to person. It's just madness.
 
monkey magic said:
You're living in a fantasy world, mate. UEFA match delegates get sent to every corner of Europe, where they have no clue of the countless local languages, dialects or meanings of colloquialisms.
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They are also a massive organisation. They will have the ability to select a delegate for any game almost who will understand the local language and issues. It wont be a hard thing to do
 
Gib1958 said:
It seems to be that a vast majority of well known members are against the Union Bears in fact they are against everything apart from getting messages and likes on their profiles . You are pathetic get a life , as 99% of you have sung the songs all be it we have to stop it now , give these guys our support and unite or get lost !!
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The UB's in general terms do a great job of getting the atmosphere going. However from their section consistently they've started off songs that have got us bad press or attention from UEFA. It might not be them but it's coming from that area-that statement is a load of waffle.

And by the way I blame the club not the UB's-they've allowed TBB to slowly creep back in until it's got louder and louder-they've done nothing.

Too many people either don't understand the history of how we got here or don't seem to care. It is worrying-the days of being naughty boys and getting tanked up and singing what you like are changing and those Bears need to decide whether they are going to get smart or drag the club and all of us down with them.

Ultimately the club needs to take a lead on this.
 
Coda said:
The problem with all that, is it's so subjective. Take away the aspect of whether certain songs should be at the football, some folk would argue that comment on the IRA isn't sectarian or discriminatory, but political. I certainly wouldn't take any issue with someone singing against the IRA, but it appears FARE would act out against that.

There simply needs to be specifics from them, this vague, make-it-up-as-we-go-along tactic from them is an utterly unacceptable way to rule. At least if there was a specific set of "values" across the board, then the clubs would have no recourse for appeal if found guilty. As it stands, we could rightly assume that X, Y and Z are banned and refrain from indulging in such, but along come FARE and retrospectively decide that W is also unacceptable, and we're now in trouble for something else that we didn't even consider a problem.

Could you imagine a real world where the authorities didn't tell you what was and wasn't legal? It would be absolute anarchy if folk were left to decide what they thought was and wasn't acceptable conduct. We all come from different backgrounds and as such, our ideas of morality will differ from person to person. It's just madness.
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FARE's mission statement portrays them as an anti racism organisation. Rangers could destroy them by asking FARE to produce any match reports they've submitted to UEFA concerning anti British racism. They won't have even one, guaranteed. FARE are a fraud, merely a left wing pressure group with their own political agenda.
 
bigneil65 said:
Up to our knees in 19th Century Terrorist blood?

UEFA decided chants of this sort against 19th Century Terrorists falls foul of THEIR rules. Article 14 is laid out by uefa. UEFA send their own delegates. This was in his report.
It's their competition. Regardless if FARE are in attendance at every game or not if TBB isn't sung at a uefa organised match then we have an argument.

And before its brought up, I was in eindhoven in 2011 and that was a stitch up. We had an argument then which o still strongly believe as we were praised by the uefa delegate
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Excellent reply, but you've still not explained how '19th Century Terrorist' fails article 14.

UEFA decided it fails article 14, agreed, but based on who's advice?

I've been in many different cities, matters not a fucking jot to the word 19th Century Terrorist and article 14..
 
Gib1958 said:
Explain please
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You've just called fellow Bears "pathetic" and told them to "get a life" and support the UB's or "get lost".

That's not conducive to solving OUR issues or bringing people on-side.

The issue is much bigger than the UB's.

I say that as a fan of the UB's but also as someone who thinks the statement was ill-advised.

There's also some good input from the SLO earlier in the thread,
 
Coda said:
The problem with all that, is it's so subjective. Take away the aspect of whether certain songs should be at the football, some folk would argue that comment on the IRA isn't sectarian or discriminatory, but political. I certainly wouldn't take any issue with someone singing against the IRA, but it appears FARE would act out against that.

There simply needs to be specifics from them, this vague, make-it-up-as-we-go-along tactic from them is an utterly unacceptable way to rule. At least if there was a specific set of "values" across the board, then the clubs would have no recourse for appeal if found guilty. As it stands, we could rightly assume that X, Y and Z are banned and refrain from indulging in such, but along come FARE and retrospectively decide that W is also unacceptable, and we're now in trouble for something else that we didn't even consider a problem.

Could you imagine a real world where the authorities didn't tell you what was and wasn't legal? It would be absolute anarchy if folk were left to decide what they thought was and wasn't acceptable conduct. We all come from different backgrounds and as such, our ideas of morality will differ from person to person. It's just madness.
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The problem there - with ‘specifics’ - is that UEFAs Article 14 needs to cover every country which takes part in their competitions. They are not going to outline every ‘banned’ word or phrase in every country and, in fairness, they never could. Nor will FARE tie themselves down to ‘specifics’, it’s not how any such organisation works because it then restricts their ability to question anything new which might come up. We might disagree with that but it’s how these things tend to pan out.

Personally I’d like to see us stick solely to songs about Rangers and Rangers players past and present - with no add-ons - but I’m not naive enough to believe that will ever happen.
 
bigneil65 said:
They are also a massive organisation. They will have the ability to select a delegate for any game almost who will understand the local language and issues. It wont be a hard thing to do
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UEFA match delegates are not polyglots, social scientists or social anthropologists, mate, and with a profound interest in the local history and conflict to where they are sent. They are like refs, its only a job.
 
dirtyharry said:
Excellent reply, but you've still not explained how '19th Century Terrorist' fails article 14.

UEFA decided it fails article 14, agreed, but based on who's advice?

I've been in many different cities, matters not a fucking jot to the word 19th Century Terrorist and article 14..
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The word '19th Century Terrorist' in itself probably doesnt. In the context of being up to our knees in their blood or 19th Century Terrorist bastard probably does.

The same as the term jew wont fall foul on it's own but when reference is made to gassing them arises then the issue is there
 
Valley Bluenose said:
The problem there - with ‘specifics’ - is that UEFAs Article 14 needs to cover every country which takes part in their competitions. They are not going to outline every ‘banned’ word or phrase in every country and, in fairness, they never could. Nor will FARE tie themselves down to ‘specifics’, it’s not how any such organisation works because it then restricts their ability to question anything new which might come up. We might disagree with that but it’s how these things tend to pan out.

Personally I’d like to see us stick solely to songs about Rangers and Rangers players past and present - with no add-ons - but I’m not naive enough to believe that will ever happen.
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We’re on the same page mate. I’m not advocating the singing of add-ons in this day and age.

I just find it difficult to comprehend the absurdity from FARE/UEFA of refusing to talk specifics, but then punishing people on the specifics. It might only be the religious add-ons just now, but the door is being left open to target pretty much whatever they take umbrage with. There needs to be a line somewhere, IMO.
 
monkey magic said:
UEFA match delegates are not polyglots, social scientists or social anthropologists, mate, and with a profound interest in the local history and conflict to where they are sent. They are like refs, its only a job.
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And some will be more thorough in the execution of their job than others. Hence we have been reported by the delegate on this occasion but on others when tbb has been belted out we havent.
 
MightyGersLand! said:
So you've quoted me and still not read the post you quoted. Give it a bye.
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Quite happy batting this back and forward for as long as you want. Not sure how I could not have read a post I have quoted. Whatever you mean by that. You made an initial statement about polite clapping at Rangers goals and I indicated that was something that I did not recognise. Unless you can provide the games when this did happen of course.
 
dirtyharry said:
Excellent reply, but you've still not explained how '19th Century Terrorist' fails article 14.

UEFA decided it fails article 14, agreed, but based on who's advice?

I've been in many different cities, matters not a fucking jot to the word 19th Century Terrorist and article 14..
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The Piggery dwellers never face the racist or sectarian singing charge because they are always strangely classed under illicit chanting, a much lesser UEFA offence.
 
DylanGer said:
The UB's in general terms do a great job of getting the atmosphere going. However from their section consistently they've started off songs that have got us bad press or attention from UEFA. It might not be them but it's coming from that area-that statement is a load of waffle.

And by the way I blame the club not the UB's-they've allowed TBB to slowly creep back in until it's got louder and louder-they've done nothing.

Too many people either don't understand the history of how we got here or don't seem to care. It is worrying-the days of being naughty boys and getting tanked up and singing what you like are changing and those Bears need to decide whether they are going to get smart or drag the club and all of us down with them.

Ultimately the club needs to take a lead on this.
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Read what I said I said we need to change oh wait you’ve got another message on your profile
Steve Snedden said:
You've just called fellow Bears "pathetic" and told them to "get a life" and support the UB's or "get lost".

That's not conducive to solving OUR issues or bringing people on-side.

The issue is much bigger than the UB's.

I say that as a fan of the UB's but also as someone who thinks the statement was ill-advised.

There's also some good input from the SLO earlier in the thread,
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you are playing with my words . I agree that the problem is bigger than union bears , I never said support union bears or get lost !! But you are the type of poster I’m talking about !!
 
bigneil65 said:
And some will be more thorough in the execution of their job than others. Hence we have been reported by the delegate on this occasion but on others when tbb has been belted out we havent.
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You're not even making sense anymore, mate. UEFA delegates can only look out for what individuals with an unhealthy interest in the clubs involved, FARE as the classic example with us, tell them what to look out for. This isn't rocket science.
 
derbyloyal said:
Yes because it both acknowledges the problem and shows that they are taking ownership of the problem.
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If Rangers come out and say Rangers songs about Rangers and football are what’s acceptable and what we want at our games, Will that be accepted by people who need told? I suspect it won’t be what some want to hear so will just be something else to moan about.
 
bigneil65 said:
The word '19th Century Terrorist' in itself probably doesnt. In the context of being up to our knees in their blood or 19th Century Terrorist bastard probably does.

The same as the term jew wont fall foul on it's own but when reference is made to gassing them arises then the issue is there
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Probably or does?

For avoidance of doubt, I'm looking for a definitive response on how '19th Century Terrorist' fails article 14.

This has nothing to do with jews or any other case study you want to bring in.
 
Gib1958 said:
It seems to be that a vast majority of well known members are against the Union Bears in fact they are against everything apart from getting messages and likes on their profiles . You are pathetic get a life , as 99% of you have sung the songs all be it we have to stop it now , give these guys our support and unite or get lost !!
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Can I just put my full support behind the club and what it asks for? Wouldn’t that be the best place for us all to unite?
 
Wilkinsvolley said:
If Rangers come out and say Rangers songs about Rangers and football are what’s acceptable and what we want at our games, Will that be accepted by people who need told? I suspect it won’t be what some want to hear so will just be something else to moan about.
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You are aware that our many haters claim that our official club song, Follow Follow, is anti Irish and sectarian because it mentions Dublin ? The bigots that hate Rangers can never be appeased.
 
monkey magic said:
You're not even making sense anymore, mate. UEFA delegates can only look out for what individuals with an unhealthy interest in the clubs involved, FARE as the classic example with us, tell them what to look out for. This isn't rocket science.
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Your right it's not rocket science. It's up to the uefa delegate to report back on issues. Some will be more clued up than others.

The really simple part is.....dont sing about 19th Century Terrorist bastards or being up to our knees in their blood and we dont fall foul of article 14. Regardless if you are I or any fan deems it derogatory or sectarian or not. UEFA DO. Their competition. Their rules. No one can point it out either if it isn't sung
 
Wilkinsvolley said:
If Rangers come out and say Rangers songs about Rangers and football are what’s acceptable and what we want at our games, Will that be accepted by people who need told? I suspect it won’t be what some want to hear so will just be something else to moan about.
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But at least the Club will have defined what is acceptable and shown leadership. Anyone who falls foul would have no argument if/when punished.
 
bigneil65 said:
Your right it's not rocket science. It's up to the uefa delegate to report back on issues. Some will be more clued up than others.

The really simple part is.....dont sing about 19th Century Terrorist bastards or being up to our knees in their blood and we dont fall foul of article 14. Regardless if you are I or any fan deems it derogatory or sectarian or not. UEFA DO. Their competition. Their rules. No one can point it out either if it isn't sung
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You still don't quite get it, mate. UEFA don't decide what is sectarian or racist, they only dole out the punishments. UEFA are told what is deemed sectarian or racist by outside interests. I'm sure we can all remember years ago when UEFA threw out any disciplinary charges brought for the Billy Boys.
 
Gib1958 said:
Read what I said I said we need to change oh wait you’ve got another message on your profile

you are playing with my words . I agree that the problem is bigger than union bears , I never said support union bears or get lost !! But you are the type of poster I’m talking about !!
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Mate, I'm not playing with your words, I'm quoting your words.

Read my posts in the thread. I'm not here for "likes" I'm trying to understand and help others understand just where we are at as a club and a support.

I'm more critical of the board than the UB's but let me ask you some things;

Are you a member of the UBs?
Did you have any involvement in their statement?
Do you support the statement?
What do you think it achieves?

I really want to help the UB's but I think that you /they are being badly advised. The statement refuses to accept either any accountability for what happened nor the reality of the situation.

It makes it easy for the club to ignore your point of view and is therefore self-defeating.
 
dirtyharry said:
Probably or does?

For avoidance of doubt, I'm looking for a definitive response on how '19th Century Terrorist' fails article 14.

This has nothing to do with jews or any other case study you want to bring in.
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I dont enforce uefa rules, I can only give what my interpretation is hence the probably. If you are looking for a definitive definition then this is probably the wrong place to be asking. Try contacting them

I was drawing a comparison with the Jews comment to show how context in how a word used has an effect on how I believe it falls foul
 
monkey magic said:
You still don't quite get it, mate. UEFA don't decide what is sectarian or racist, they only dole out the punishments. UEFA are told what is deemed sectarian or racist by outside interests. I'm sure we can all remember years ago when UEFA threw out any disciplinary charges brought for the Billy Boys.
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Actually, in terms of their competitions, yes they do. Their rules. Their interpretation. They take the view that it hurts their image.

They may have not had issue in the past but clearly do now and have had for some time
 
Steve Snedden said:
You've just called fellow Bears "pathetic" and told them to "get a life" and support the UB's or "get lost".

That's not conducive to solving OUR issues or bringing people on-side.

The issue is much bigger than the UB's.

I say that as a fan of the UB's but also as someone who thinks the statement was ill-advised.

There's also some good input from the SLO earlier in the thread,
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I dont think it was that great myself.
 
Exactly. This isn't a case of don't know, it's 100% don't care.

Well, UEFA seem to be fairly keen on forcing people to care.
Zapp Brannigan said:
Why did Linfield make a clear statement about TBB?

There are numbskulls in our support who will sing what they want because they think it's their right. The club can't rely on their common sense. If they do, it'll be stadium closure next.
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bigneil65 said:
Actually, in terms of their competitions, yes they do. Their rules. Their interpretation. They take the view that it hurts their image.

They may have not had issue in the past but clearly do now and have had for some time
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why now then? whats different now?
 
legalbeagle said:
The important thing is definitely to ensure that absolutely everybody gets the blame apart from those singing the actual songs.
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I have absolutely no idea what you are on about. Did you even read what I posted or were you answering someone else and copied me by mistake?
 
bigneil65 said:
I dont enforce uefa rules, I can only give what my interpretation is hence the probably. If you are looking for a definitive definition then this is probably the wrong place to be asking. Try contacting them

I was drawing a comparison with the Jews comment to show how context in how a word used has an effect on how I believe it falls foul
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'Without FARE, we still fall foul of article 14' your words in the first reply.

I'm still no further forward to understanding why...........despite the Jews.

Off to bed now mate, good night.
 
bigneil65 said:
Actually, in terms of their competitions, yes they do. Their rules. Their interpretation. They take the view that it hurts their image.

They may have not had issue in the past but clearly do now and have had for some time
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Wise up, mate. UEFA knew nothing of the Billy Boys and only acted after the outrage from within Scotland after they threw out the charges and Rangers were cleared. They were pressured to include it for sanctions afterwards, but not from within UEFA, and why would they ?
 
Govanx said:
I have absolutely no idea what you are on about. Did you even read what I posted or were you answering someone else and copied me by mistake?
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Ok. We have been punished for singing songs.

Your post blamed our MD, Head of Security, unnamed ‘enemies’. You just manage to not hold any accountability to those who actually carried out the action that we were punished for.
 
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