Club 1872 statement

o7o

Well-Known Member
I’m still very mixed about this. We’d all have given anything to have enough shares to veto most things back then. This is what King said he thought was a good idea when he got in so I don’t think it’s a change in direction.

I have become disillusioned with the idea of fan ownership for us. Things are going well just now and I don’t want it derailed now or in the future.

All in all I don’t think it’s a bad thing as long as it goes how intended. I think if we want to ensure 2012 never happens again, we need to put our big boy pants on and take responsibility.
Likewise... however if DK has sold out

A. Hopefully, he's selling to proper folk

B. He just wanted his £20m back...or most of it.

C. We'll soon find out
 

IbroxForever

Well-Known Member
After thinking a bit more about this several things are clear.

One id Dave Kings family must have told him no more money to us and they would be selling his shares once he us gone.

The other is Club1872 will never get enough people to pay the £13m.

Also I don't know enough about Club1872, is the point of the group to put new money into the club or just to own shares no matter who they pay to get them?
 

Kaiser

Well-Known Member
My take on it is:

1. Dave King probably sunk more into Rangers than by he intended. By that token I'm eternally grateful. With the sale to Club1872 it ensures that ownership remains within the Rangers family and DK gets back some of what he "invested".

2. A downside of the investment is that it is not new money to Rangers.

3. Given DK's assertion that he wishes Rangers fans to have control of his investment - it perhaps sounds like his family are not as keen.

4. I'm a member of Club1872 but don't know too much about the personalities involved. But as long as everyone has Rangers at heart I'm happy.

5. With respect to becoming the top shareholder it doesn't naturally mean that you are represented on the Board.

6. I'll be forever grateful for DK, the Three Bears and the others that have since invested in Rangers.

7. Now it's up to us, the Rangers support to play our part.

8. Let's go!!!
 

Mr_Miscellaneous

Well-Known Member
Keeping things ticking over? Invest capital here and there?

Not the story that the club accounts tell.

Rangers are rebuilding. That rebuild has been funded by investors. Remove that investment and the business model at Ibrox remains far too unbalanced. The current situation may be what was needed to close the gap with Celtic, reassert some form of domestic strength and modernise the club's footballing structure. There are still massive questions over club finances.

Whether it's as a part fan owned club or as a club that is majority owned by a few key investors, unless they're willing and able to pump millions into the club on a regular basis? Rangers needs to improve. The current model isnt sustainable in the long term. It's a return to the boom and bust and unsustainable finances of David Murray.
I agree that the ongoing financing of the club through soft loans is unsustainable in the long-term, but I have the feeling that by the time the final tranche of shares have been bought in a few years time, the accounts will be significantly better than they currently are due to a combination of player sales and top-tier European Competition.

In all honesty, aside from financing and maintaining a veto to stop crazy shit from happening, the main role of the group would be to stop anyone from coming in and dismantling the foundations put in by King and others in the last few years, if one part of the machine leaves then confirm a similar part of the machine, stay out of day-to-day operations because we have competent managing directors, recruitment and directors of football and make sure investments are worthwhile and would be welcomed by the fans (i.e. no more Murray vanity projects like a pointless racing team)
 

sandy102uk

Well-Known Member
Seems like King is giving Club 1872 3years to buy his shares making Club 1872 the largest shareholders at the club.. seems a decent enough agreement from what I can tell...

Although its not fresh money coming into the club directly I don't see it as an issue as we're in a good place and are now an attractive proposal to future investors..
I really don't see us as an attractive proposal to future investors as long as we're stuck in Scottish football. We rely on a good European run and possible player sales to break even. Our current investors are certainly not looking for profit or dividends on their shares. If Club 1872 take up the DK offer they will no longer have funds available for new investment. Unless you believe fan ownership is the promised land I cannot see any advantages to the well being and future of the club and it could be a deterrent to future investors.
 

Hillheadbear

Goooooooooaaaaaaaaaaallllllllll
Those who say it is not new money going to the club need to understand the difference between a tactical investment and a strategic one.

A tactical investment is one which is designed to keep the club running day to day.

A strategic investment is one which tries to ensure that what happened between 2012 and 2016 can never happen again.
 

Blair bear

Well-Known Member
If looks like Dave King is putting a structure in place for the fans, this may become clearer once we have further information. The one thing I will take from it just now is that I will always believe that Dave King will only do what he sees as a benefit to the club and fans. There seems to be quite a bit of negativity already but I think we are getting an once in a lifetime opportunity. He could put his shares out on the market tomorrow and sell to anyone but what he doesn’t want is for us to ever be back under the control of investors who will look at us as simply an investment. This could be his final legacy to the club and fans.
 

Uncle Albert

Well-Known Member
Reading the posts on this thread it would appear that many, maybe even the majority, don’t want fan involvement at Board level, or even a Club that is run on a sustainable basis. What they want is somebody else to keep throwing money at it. :rolleyes: That cannot, and will not, go on forever.
That isn't true at all. There are valid questions being asked about the credibility of C1872.

Fan ownership is the dream but you're asking a lot of folk to part with money, on top of the money they already put into the club, and trust it with a group that, while no doubt well intentioned, are renound for petty squabbling and a lack of professionalism.
 

Govanx

Cool Story Bro
Love Dave King to death, even more so for putting club before family (knowing his family wouldn’t care about club as much as he does) but I’m of the opinion responsibility like this has to be earned. The same way you wouldn’t promote a janitor to run a multi million pound/dollar company why on earth would you give a punter off the street (no offense to current directors of Club 1872) the helm of the largest shareholding block in Rangers FC. Anyone who’s ever been involved in the behind the scenes machinations of a small supporters club, bowling club etc has to be looking upon this with dread. Line up the blazer chasers please.
 

SDF91

Well-Known Member
Should Club 1872 not get their house in order and stop the petty squabbling before embarking on this?
Also as others have said £13m would be better in new shares rather than going ro Dave King and I do not mean that in a derogatory way whatsoever to DK.
I think it gives Club 1872 time to get their house in order and a proper governance structure in place. I don’t know if they’ll get the £13m together if they don’t.

The problem with issuing the new shares is that it dilutes the shareholding and £13m at MV of the shares will get significantly less than the 25% King is offering. For this to work, the “fan ownership” shareholding needs to be more than 25% so they can block special resolutions.

I understand £13m in the club’s pocket is seen as a better option than in King’s, but if this works, it could be more valuable for the club in the long run.
 

EndOfDays

Well-Known Member
Reading the posts on this thread it would appear that many, maybe even the majority, don’t want fan involvement at Board level, or even a Club that is run on a sustainable basis. What they want is somebody else to keep throwing money at it. :rolleyes: That cannot, and will not, go on forever.
People are posting that their shareholding will be getting diluted as we keep doing share issues, that well is almost dry as it is.

Reality check needed, the rapid growth part of the plan is done and after this season living within our means has to start happening with player sales.
 

Papac

Well-Known Member
After thinking a bit more about this several things are clear.

One id Dave Kings family must have told him no more money to us and they would be selling his shares once he us gone.

The other is Club1872 will never get enough people to pay the £13m.

Also I don't know enough about Club1872, is the point of the group to put new money into the club or just to own shares no matter who they pay to get them?
None of that is clear. I can't tell if this is a wind up or you could actually believe those things.
 

Blair bear

Well-Known Member
I don’t have an issue with his family not committing to us? I have an issue with club 1872 getting first dibs though
If it’s not club 1872 then who do we find to buy his shares? If they get put on the market then we end up with people only interested in a return on investment. Your Mike Ashley types who can take us back down the wrong road to benefit there return.
 

Hillheadbear

Goooooooooaaaaaaaaaaallllllllll
That isn't true at all. There are valid questions being asked about the credibility of C1872.

Fan ownership is the dream but you're asking a lot of folk to part with money, on top of the money they already put into the club, and trust it with a group that, while no doubt well intentioned, are renound for petty squabbling and a lack of professionalism.

I agree. C1872 are going to have to get their act together if they want to raise the £13 million.
 

Valley Bluenose

Well-Known Member
That isn't true at all. There are valid questions being asked about the credibility of C1872.

Fan ownership is the dream but you're asking a lot of folk to part with money, on top of the money they already out into the club, and trust it with a group that, while no doubt well intentioned, are rebound for petty squabbling and a lack of professionalism.
I can understand, fully, the reservations about Club 1872. I’ve said I will back this - but I don’t think Club 1872 can actually achieve the objective of raising £13m. Unfortunately.

However, that wasn’t my point. Read the posts. The primary recurring theme is ‘who’s gonna put money into the Club afterwards’. In other words, Club 1872 can’t be a sugar daddy so who will? We have to get away from this idea that somebody is going to keep throwing money at it. In fact, the Club have to move on from there being a requirement for somebody to keep throwing money at it. A mix of small, manageable losses followed by some years of profit is great. Having to chuck in millions every year to keep the lights on isn't. It cannot go on. A reasonable position would be to assume we win the title 50% of the time and make the group stages in Europe 50% of the time and take it from there. Once our rebuild is complete, obviously. I understand that, currently, we are throwing the kitchen sink at it.
 

RoofeIsOnFire

Well-Known Member
Those who say it is not new money going to the club need to understand the difference between a tactical investment and a strategic one.

A tactical investment is one which is designed to keep the club running day to day.

A strategic investment is one which tries to ensure that what happened between 2012 and 2016 can never happen again.
Id argue Club 1872 buying Kings shares is neither of which as it doesnt fulfil either description.
 

Wilkinsvolley

Well-Known Member
Official Ticketer
Another way to look at it is the fans bought the shares King bought and saved the club. We couldn’t have got that money at the time so King loaned us the money. I don’t think any of us would have any problem whatsoever if club1872 got those shares at that time.
 

Laudrup1

Well-Known Member
No. They aren’t.

No new money comes into the club but C1872 does have a much stronger position on the board as the biggest single shareholder.

My concerns are similar to many others already expressed, and I admit I’ve only read the first two pages of this thread, so apologies if these issues have already been raised later on the thread.

Firstly, I think C1872 will find it tough to raise £13m from 20,000 new investors. Then, even if we did manage that, where would the new money being invested in the club thereafter come from, when rights issues come along. Would C1872 just have to go back to the members and ask them for even more again? I’m not sure that the basic structure is sustainable as a means of bringing in additional funding long term.

Secondly, I share the concerns about the past history we have of internal politics and infighting where fan groups are concerned.

Thirdly, the RFFF end result is a good example of what can happen when committees end up making decisions for all the members. I think it’s fair to say the new stand at Auchenhowie does add to the facility but 99.9% of supporters and members will never see any benefit from it or even sit in it once.

Lastly, someone like me would be a person who would be happy to invest new money into the club in a new share issue, but I want to control my own vote on my own shares. That’s maybe just me. I run my own business and don’t like other people controlling my money or my affairs.

So, I’m sure King has the right intentions here, but I’d far rather see King retain his shareholding and we try to attract new money by allowing C1872 and ordinary supporters to buy shares and control them themselves.

King doesn't want to do that so there's no point in thinking that way and it seems to stem for some wanting a "Daddy" figure to protect them.

The RFFF situation is an example of something not handled properly... or largely that people donating didn't know what the possible outcomes were. A classic case of not reading the small print. That does not mean that that then applies to C1872 and its' set up.

Also, people still thinking that what was built was a "stand" they don't benefit from don't understand what was built, what the club wanted and how the support will actually all see the benefits from the facility.

Further to your point about "what happens for future investment? Do C1872 go back to members for even more money"

You realise that if King stays on, as you want, he doesn't have a bottomless pit of money either. The same investment dries up there too eventually.

This is all about protecting the future of the club. It becomes a sustainable model on trading and Euro participation. We can't rely on constant external investment from anyone. That's the entire point of what the King / Park / Bennett plan has been
 
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Roscoblue

Well-Known Member
Reading the posts on this thread it would appear that many, maybe even the majority, don’t want fan involvement at Board level, or even a Club that is run on a sustainable basis. What they want is somebody else to keep throwing money at it. :rolleyes: That cannot, and will not, go on forever.

We have fan involvement at Board level VB. Our Chairman is a Rangers fan, our Vice Chairman is a Rangers fan and that’s just a starting point.
 

Roscoblue

Well-Known Member
Who are the main players at Club 1872 and what would Club 1872 seek in return should this come off?

Am I not correct in saying that only recently there were issues behind the scenes with C1872 that seen directors/board members leave without that being made common knowledge? If so it’s hardly the level of transparency I fancy having 25% of the shares in my Club.
 

KGR98

Well-Known Member
A vehicle were fans can pay a monthly or annual fee which could allow the club to have an excellent yearly transfer budget would be ideal but would require a lot of long term commitment from the fans but if we could get 100,000 fans putting in £100 a year or something like £10 a month would give the club over £10 million extra investment each season
 

Barrymoped

Well-Known Member
People are posting that their shareholding will be getting diluted as we keep doing share issues, that well is almost dry as it is.

Reality check needed, the rapid growth part of the plan is done and after this season living within our means has to start happening with player sales.
Yep, that much is clear.

Our wealthy benefactors have pushed the boat out at their own expense to drag us back up to a level where we can legitimately challenge for the league, that wasn’t cheap and can’t continue without selling some of our best assets.
 

mart22

Well-Known Member
Any else a bit gutted Dave King is selling up?
He has been colossal for the club. I think we are far better off having his voice and guidance in the boardroom, but if this is the way he wants to part, then I have nothing but respect and gratitude.
Very true.
And for those questioning DK's timing etc. He's committed to selling his shares to Club 1872 at a time when Rangers are resurgent. We can win the league, the treble, and Europa cup. If we do win major silverware then our share value will go up. Yet DK has offered to sell his shares to the fans group for 20p a share. Less than they are worth, even at this time when we've won nothing.
It's a wonderful legacy Dave King leaves, and an amazing opportunity for Rangers supporters to seize.
 

Bowery Boy

Well-Known Member
Reading the posts on this thread it would appear that many, maybe even the majority, don’t want fan involvement at Board level, or even a Club that is run on a sustainable basis. What they want is somebody else to keep throwing money at it. :rolleyes: That cannot, and will not, go on forever.
Been saying the exact same to a few people on twitter. It's a very risky strategy to think some wealthy benefactors are going to plough cash in for eternity for little to no return. It isn't a sustainable long term strategy. You'd think our fanbase more than most would get this.
 

Buxton Bear

Well-Known Member
Club 1872 has the potential to raise funds after this phases of taking over Dave Kings shares. I think the three year window will give it time to reform and develop better structures. It does need to be clearer and as an existing member I don't really see what's happening from it and there has been limited visible development.

Shame it and MyGers couldn't share some functions like the members systems you get in Europe.
 

A1bertz

Well-Known Member
Not a member of club 1872.
I wouldn't personally invest or join in with this effort. I'm more than happy to be a mere season ticket holder but wouldn't unfortunately go beyond that..not in any meaningful way.
Season ticket x2
MyGers
Rangers TV
Rangers Youth
Merchandise for my son.
That's kind of my limit I'm afraid.

Seems like a hell of a lot of money to expect to raise but good luck to club 1872 and those who get involved.
 

Porto Loyal

Well-Known Member
Club 1872 having a rep on the board doesn’t mean it has to be a board member of c1872. You can propose someone who has the requisite knowledge and background to represent you.
 

Roscoblue

Well-Known Member
Pedantic. ;) Point taken however. In no way does that detract from the issue that a significant number of our support simply want someone to keep chucking money at it.

It wasn’t meant to be pedantic VB, I have the utmost respect for you as a poster and don’t feel that this development would benefit from flippant remarks from me.

I’m genuine when I say I am more than satisfied that Our Club means enough to Douglas Park, John Bennett, George Letham, George Taylor, Graeme Park and Barry Scott that we needn’t be concerned how it all ends up. I haven’t included Julian Wolhardt or Stuart Gibson because I don’t exactly know the cut of their jib but will counter that by saying they come very highly recommended.

The C1872 plan, for me, appears self serving and almost like they’ve tried to hoodwink The Club. It doesn’t sit at all well with me. £13m to The Club or £13m to an individual (whoever that may be) seems a no brainier to me.
 

Laudrups Barnet

Well-Known Member
Not sure how I feel about this, given that our fan base often disagree on the most trivial of matters.

this. If two Rangers fans were marooned on a desert island there’d be four fans groups fighting amongst each other in 24 hours. A fan outfit with a big enough stake to vote down resolutions will be a disaster IMO. Egos and soap opera pish will ensue and seriously harm the club.

be delighted if somebody proves I’m talking pish but I just don’t see this being a good thing.
 

Bigfc

Active Member
Fail to see any positives. Very grateful to Dave King, but money is tight for the club and fans are better directing money into the club rather than to DK. Would be more pressing if current regime was a concern.
 

Kaiser

Well-Known Member
Those who say it is not new money going to the club need to understand the difference between a tactical investment and a strategic one.

A tactical investment is one which is designed to keep the club running day to day.

A strategic investment is one which tries to ensure that what happened between 2012 and 2016 can never happen again.

In my earlier post I intimated that one downside is that it is not new money.

I fully understand your point regarding strategic and tactical.

I'm not close enough to Club1872 to appreciate the personalities involved. Others maybe.

Even within this thread are contributors undecided about the ability of Club1872 to act in the best interests of Rangers.

I don't get it myself. But there are FF'ers on here that question it. But you are 100% correct, God save us from the scum that were able to walk up the marble staircase during those days.

For my own part, I copped a five year ban from Wikipedia for updating David Somers page.

I detest that old lady's front bottom.
 

sherbrook_loyal

Administrator
Staff member
It wasn’t meant to be pedantic VB, I have the utmost respect for you as a poster and don’t feel that this development would benefit from flippant remarks from me.

I’m genuine when I say I am more than satisfied that Our Club means enough to Douglas Park, John Bennett, George Letham, George Taylor, Graeme Park and Barry Scott that we needn’t be concerned how it all ends up. I haven’t included Julian Wolhardt or Stuart Gibson because I don’t exactly know the cut of their jib but will counter that by saying they come very highly recommended.

The C1872 plan, for me, appears self serving and almost like they’ve tried to hoodwink The Club. It doesn’t sit at all well with me. £13m to The Club or £13m to an individual (whoever that may be) seems a no brainier to me.

Absolutely, @Roscoblue

Is it too much of a stretch to suggest it’s a bit of a kick in the teeth to these wealthy investors who are all supporters?

If I’d invested the sums of money these shareholders had, I’d be concerned that a fans’ group could soon have a majority say in the club I’ve invested in.

The not inconsiderable sum of £13 million would do a lot more good going to the club than any individual. And I say that as a big King fan.

That this fans’ group seems to be poorly run would only add to my concern.

As someone who has contributed each month to Club 1872 for a long time, tonight’s news just doesn’t sit right with me.
 

IbroxForever

Well-Known Member
No matter how some try and claim this is wonderful, at the end of the day £13m is not going to go into the club. Thats a huge amount of money.

Also what do the other investors think about this? Are they going to get the same deal? The timing of this is pretty poor.
 

weeneebs

Well-Known Member
All C1872 cash should go to the club, and NOT a shareholder!
Without said Shareholder there would be NO club, is he not entitled to some kind of return?
I'd much rather his shares are sold on to a vetted single individual or consortium that have Rangers at the heart of their interests
 
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Valley Bluenose

Well-Known Member
It wasn’t meant to be pedantic VB, I have the utmost respect for you as a poster and don’t feel that this development would benefit from flippant remarks from me.

I’m genuine when I say I am more than satisfied that Our Club means enough to Douglas Park, John Bennett, George Letham, George Taylor, Graeme Park and Barry Scott that we needn’t be concerned how it all ends up. I haven’t included Julian Wolhardt or Stuart Gibson because I don’t exactly know the cut of their jib but will counter that by saying they come very highly recommended.

The C1872 plan, for me, appears self serving and almost like they’ve tried to hoodwink The Club. It doesn’t sit at all well with me. £13m to The Club or £13m to an individual (whoever that may be) seems a no brainier to me.
Fair do’s mate. What I would say though is that if they try and raise £13m for a new share issue instead - and I see the benefit, obviously, of cash going into the Club - it still leaves King, or his family, looking to sell a huge chunk of shares to goodness knows who. He clearly wants out and wants the cash in. There’s every chance he’s offered his shares to his former colleagues as well but they have declined. So who buys them and how desperate is he to get his money in the next 3 years?

Its a far from ideal situation on so many levels.
 

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